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Offline Tom Bishop

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Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« on: May 22, 2020, 06:48:29 PM »
According to the Round Earth Theory of the seasons the Earth is tilted on its axis and revolving around the Sun.



During the summer the Northern Hemisphere is pointed at the Sun we get long days. During winter the Northern Hemisphere is pointed away from the Sun and we get short days.

In London on June Solstice the length day is about 16:38:19
In London on December Solstice the length of day is about 7:49:42

Quite a difference.

Now, if the Earth is sometimes tilted one way and then sometimes tilted the other way in the solar system, shouldn't we also expect the planets in the plane of the Solar System to also adhere to the seasons? Like the Sun, during some parts of the year Jupiter should stay longer in the sky and during other parts of the year Jupiter should stay shorter in the sky.

If we take the Sun out of the picture, this tilting of the Earth should affect any body in plane of the Solar System the same way. Jupiter doesn't really move that fast around the Sun over the course of an Earth year, revolving about once around the Sun every 12 years, and can be considered relatively static over the course of an Earth year.

The free astronomy program Stellarium has a dynamic Altitude. vs Time chart available in the left hand 'Astronomical calculations' menu which graphs the altitude of celestial bodies by time. If you open this graph and select or search for an object in Stellarium it will display its properties on this graph in red. I chose Jupiter (red). There is also a tickbox to 'also graph for the Sun', which I checked, and the Sun appears in blue. The dotted lines are twilight.

For Jupiter on 3-21-2018 (Equinox)



For Jupiter on 6-21-2018 (June Solstice)



For Jupiter on 9-21-2018 (Equinox)



For Jupiter on 12-21-2018 (December Solstice)



It appears that Jupiter never receives anything like the 16.5 hour days like that of the Sun. It's pretty much the same throughout this year, even if I increment the months by one month at a time throughout the year, rather than three months.

Can our astronomy experts here kindly explain why Jupiter does not seem to adhere to the seasons?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 02:09:14 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Online Roundy

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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2020, 07:35:03 PM »
Axial tilt. It's only 3 degrees for Jupiter versus 23.5 degrees for Earth.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2020, 07:58:01 PM »
I think you are arguing that Jupiter is not exactly aligned with the plane of the Solar System. Lets work with that idea. The plane of the Solar System is the ecliptic. There is a sky coordinate system for that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecliptic_coordinate_system



According to an ecliptic latitude and longitude calculator for the planets:

https://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1224748262

Ecliptic Latitude (Local time 00:00) for Jupiter

Mar 21 2018: 1°13′54″
June 21 2018: 1°8′40″
Sept 21 2018: 0°47′19″
Dec 21 2018: 0°38′5″

So at all times in 2018 the planet Jupiter is slightly above the plane of the Solar System.

Considering that the Earth's Northern axis can be tilted downwards from vertical in relation to the plane of the Solar System during the year, due to the Earth's axial tilt, and Jupiter is slightly above the plane of the Solar System, shouldn't that help us see Jupiter for longer than we see the Sun?


Also - "The elliptical orbit of Jupiter is inclined 1.31° compared to Earth."
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 09:27:30 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Online Roundy

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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2020, 08:32:39 PM »
I think you are arguing that Jupiter is not exactly aligned with the plane of the Solar System.

I am?  ???
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Offline Groit

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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2020, 08:36:25 PM »
Tom, the Earth will be tilted towards and away from Jupiter over a 12 year period (1 Jupiter year)
Try running the stellerium again for the year 2024 and you'll find Jupiter has an alt of around 55 degrees and staying longer in the sky.

Offline Groit

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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2020, 09:51:24 PM »
Tom, the Earth will be tilted towards and away from Jupiter over a 12 year period (1 Jupiter year)
Try running the stellerium again for the year 2024 and you'll find Jupiter has an alt of around 55 degrees and staying longer in the sky.

How is that possible? The Earth doesn't do any more tilting in relation to the Sun or the plane of the Solar System over 6 years. The Earth is always oriented the same and makes the same pattern every year.


Now Jupiter generally stays longer in the sky throughout 2024.

So, how do you explain this pattern that takes place over years?

It's more to do with the position of Jupiter in its orbit around the Sun.

This shows the Earth tilted away from Jupiter June 2019



And this shows the Earth tilted towards Jupiter December 2024 (5.5 years later)


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2020, 01:36:27 AM »
I think I lost a post up there.

That seems like a fair enough explanation. Perhaps that's how astronomer's of antiquity came up with the orbital period. I believe that I have some issues to that, and will give it some thought.
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Offline Nosmo

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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2020, 07:00:10 AM »
If we look at the data provided by Tom.

In the second image.
For Jupiter on 6-21-2018 (June Solstice)



This shows the Sun at maximum at 12:00 with the axis of rotation tilted towards the Sun.
Jupiter is at maximum some 9 hours later at something like 21:00.
This would have Jupiter positioned well and truly on the side of the away from the tilt of the axis of rotation (in the northern hemisphere). Though not exactly opposite the Sun it is something like 135 degrees away from the Sun.

In the fourth image six months later.
For Jupiter on 12-21-2018 (December Solstice)



This shows the Sun at maximum at 12:00 with the axis of rotation tilted away from the Sun.
Jupiter is at maximum about 1.5 hours earlier at something like 10:30.
This also would have Jupiter positioned well and truly on the side of the away from the tilt of the axis of rotation (in the Northern hemisphere).

Throughout the whole period of the images presented by Tom Jupiter would have been on the side of the earth away from the tilt of the axis in the Norther hemisphere.

Three of Toms images represent the view from London, the second image for some reason (I assume an unintentional error) is from some random location in the Baltic Sea. Hence the timings are a little out compared to the other three images.

If you are looking for a change in the length of time that Jupiter is above the horizon then you could either look at London about 6 years earlier or 6 years, which would Jupiter on the other side of its orbit. Or you could look from a point in the Southern hemisphere on the same dates that you used above for London. A similar point would be Port San Carlos in the Falkland Islands at about 51.5 degrees south. The Southern hemisphere would be tilted toward Jupiter during this period.

Someone who is better at this than me could probably point out the times when you could expect these values to be at there maximum and minimum for London. These would have nothing to do with the seasons, only the relationship of the tilt of the Earth and Earth's and Jupiter's positions in their orbits.

Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2020, 12:49:55 PM »
Seems that Tom is confusing obliquity of the ecliptic (polar tilt) with orbital inclination (relative to Earth).

Whether a planet experiences seasons or not depends entirely on whether the polar axis of the planet is tilted relative to the plane of its orbit. All of the planets within a few degrees of each other lie it the same orbital plane. Pluto is the winner in this respect at 17 degrees.

However the planets vary widely in respect of polar axis tilt. Jupiter is only 3 degrees and so it will barely have any seasonal variation. Uranus is just over 90 degrees and so its north pole is effectively pointed towards the Sun.  Venus is 177 degrees and so it is effectively upside down. That explains why Venus appears to rotate in the opposite direction compared to the other planets.

Since all the planets share very nearly the same orbital plane, that explains why all the planets follow a very similar path through the sky as seen from Earth.  The ecliptic is the plane of the Earths orbit and that is why the Sun is always on the ecliptic. Other planets wander both north and south of the ecliptic through the years but not by very much. The ecliptic follows a path through the sky which takes it from +/- 23.5degrees (the Earths polar tilt) which is pretty close to the celestial equator.  That is why the planets are always highest in the sky as seen between the tropics of Cancer (+23.5N) and Capricorn (-23.5S).

So whether other planets have seasons or not depends entirely on whether their polar axis is tilted w.r.t their orbital plane.  In the case of Jupiter that is only 3 degrees and has nothing to do with Earth in any way.

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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2020, 03:30:03 PM »
According to the Round Earth Theory of the seasons the Earth is tilted on its axis and revolving around the Sun.



Can our astronomy experts here kindly explain why Jupiter does not seem to adhere to the seasons?

For purposes of discussion, let's accept textbook definitions of planetary orbital periods are all correct, and that the textbook description of all the planets is also correct.

Let's decide on one point in the diagram to be a starting point (01 of 4), and determine where Jupiter might be at that point.

Let's say the Dec solstice is starting point 01, and Jupiter is out to the right, broadly in alignment with the line between Sun and Earth.

Earth reaches March solstice (point 02) 3 mths later, and points 03 and 04 in 6 and 9 mths (EDIT - March EQUINOX)

Jupiter moves 30 degrees per Earth year, so as Earth reaches point 01, three months later, Jupiter has only moved approx (30/4) 7 degrees or so. Broadly speaking, it's still in the same place, only 7 degrees off the line where it was when we started.

The axial tilt of the Earth is still, broadly speaking, leaning toward Jupiter. There will be little or no change in the time it spends in our sky.

You posted a series of charts spanning one Earth year, but in order to see a difference, you'll have to span 12 Earth years, surely?

Starting point - June solstice 2019, with Earth and Jupiter broadly aligned along the Sun-Earth line. Axial tilt of Earth is toward the Sun, away from Jupiter



Three months on, axial tilt still away from Jupiter



Six, Nine mths on, axial tilt still away from Jupiter







How do we get the axial tilt toward Jupiter? Wait six years. That's when you'll see the difference in the amount of time Jupiter is in our sky



« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 09:21:35 PM by Tumeni »
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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2020, 08:38:43 PM »
In his original post Tom asks:

Quote
Now, if the Earth is sometimes tilted one way and then sometimes tilted the other way in the solar system, shouldn't we also expect the planets in the plane of the Solar System to also adhere to the seasons? Like the Sun, during some parts of the year Jupiter should stay longer in the sky and during other parts of the year Jupiter should stay shorter in the sky.


The Earths polar tilt means that for observers at mid range latitudes (i.e. away from the poles or the equator) the elevation of the ecliptic varies during the course of a year. For example for the northern hemisphere during summer the night period is short and the ecliptic is low down. In winter the nights are longer and the ecliptic is higher in the sky. This is what you would expect.

The Sun travels along the entire path of the ecliptic during one year which again is what you would expect. The outer planets (Mars and beyond) do the same but because they are travelling lower than the Earth in accordance with Keplers 3rd law, they take longer to make one complete circuit of the ecliptic. Because their orbital planes are not exactly aligned with the Earth the planets also stray by a degree or two both north and south of the ecliptic.

Jupiter and Saturn take several Earth years to complete one of their orbits. So as a result they take longer to make a circuit of the ecliptic. Presently they lie in the Sagittarius and Capricorn regions of the ecliptic and so from mid-northern latitudes they are never going to reach a high elevation. Hence they are in the sky for only a short time. For astronomers in the northern hemisphere Sagittarius and Capricorn are summer constellations and so they are never going to be favorably placed for observing. Southern hemisphere observers will have a better view and as always the winners are observers near the equator since the planets will always be high in the sky.

Jupiter and Saturn will continue in their orbits and so they will also make progress along the ecliptic. Opposition is the important date for astronomers as that is when the planet rises as the Sun sets.  For Jupiter this date is a month later each year.  This year it occurs in July which means bad for northern hemisphere observers as the ecliptic is low down on summer evenings. Furthermore both Jupiter and Saturn currently have declination well to the south of the celestial equator a degree or so either side of the -20 mark so that does't help either. However by 2024 Jupiter opposition is in early December which coincides with the northern hemisphere late autumn which means Jupiter will reach a much higher elevation in the sky and so spend longer in the sky.

Much the same applies to Saturn. So by the mid 2020s, Jupiter and Saturn will bring much more favorable observing opportunities for northern hemisphere observers. Until then we will just have to remote connect into Chilescope.com!

Now I don't know how that can be explained very easily in flat Earth models where planets are orbiting a central Sun all above the flat Earth but it all seems to be pretty well explained by RE.

 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 08:46:33 PM by IronHorse »

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2020, 10:21:09 PM »
Seems that Tom is confusing obliquity of the ecliptic (polar tilt) with orbital inclination (relative to Earth).
[...]
So whether other planets have seasons or not depends entirely on whether their polar axis is tilted w.r.t their orbital plane.  In the case of Jupiter that is only 3 degrees and has nothing to do with Earth in any way.

I understood that wrong at a first reading too, but Tom's point never was about seasons on Jupiter, it's about Jupiter appearing in our sky for a longer or shorter time, just like the Sun stays in the sky for longer in summer.

Jupiter's orbit is close to the ecliptic (the plane of Earth's orbit around the Sun), but that doesn't mean its position in the sky is always equivalent to the Sun's. Depending on where it is on its orbit, Jupiter's apparent path in the sky will be close to the Sun's at a certain time of the year, but not necessarily the current date. That means, to answer the OP's question, that it does not have to match the "solar" season. Jupiter moves much more slowly on the celestial sphere than the Sun.

Jupiter's current declination is about -21º: that's approximately the Sun's declination in late November. So more or less, today Jupiter will stay in the sky for the same duration as the Sun on November 25.

A graph of Jupiter's declination over the next 10 years, you can notice it's currently close to its minimum.
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Re: Why doesn't Jupiter adhere to the RE Seasons?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2020, 08:36:18 AM »
Absolutely and indeed it does. All the planets follow paths through the sky which closely follow the ecliptic. That is because all the planets orbit the Sun in very nearly the same plane give or take a few degrees. That is why you will only ever find the main planets in the zodiac group of constellations.  Asteroids and comets are different and many have highly inclined orbits so you can find them pretty much anywhere.

The outer planets orbit the Sun progessively more slowly than Earth (Keplers 3rd law) and so they progress along the ecliptic progressively more slowly. Hence it takes them longer to complete a circuit of the ecliptic. The elevation of the ecliptic from mid latitude locations varies with the seasons due to the Earths axial tilt.

How high (and therefore how long) planets remain above the horizon depends on their location on the ecliptic. Jupiter is currently in Sagittarius but the Sun is currently in Taurus. So Jupiter is currently low in the sky fro northern observers during the 2nd part of the night while the Sun is high in the sky during the day.  In a few years time in December 2024 the Sun will be low in the sky during the northern hemisphere winter but Jupiter will be in Taurus and so high up in the night time sky.

We seem to be repeating ourselves a lot here.  Hopefully Tom understands the answer to his original query now? This obviously all 'assumes' that the Earth is orbiting the Sun like all the other planets and in very nearly the same plane. That differs significantly from the FE models which puts the Sun circling above the Earth with all the 'other' planets orbiting around it. How you can make that situation explain everything we observe in the sky I am not sure.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 10:31:04 AM by IronHorse »