Eötvös Effect
« on: March 24, 2020, 05:38:07 PM »
I saw this rather good video about the Eötvös Effect:



I thought I'd have a look to see if your Wiki has any thoughts on this matter and found this page

https://wiki.tfes.org/E%C3%B6tv%C3%B6s_Effect

Which says:

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It is found that a gravimeter is a low-frequency seismometer, and that the theory of gravimetry is based on a theoretical assessment of the background noise in the subseismic band. The patterns of the tides and other phenomena can be pulled out of the background noise, and are assumed to be due to "gravity".

In connection with the above, The Eötvös Effect is an effect which adds or subtracts anthropogenic and microseismic noises to the gravimeter when a vessel moves eastwards or westwards. Although the cause of the noise is unknown, the noise may be related to the stars, tides, or even the upper flow of the 'great ocean conveyor belt', all of which make regular westwards motions across the earth. A vessel going against this noise would pick up greater noise than a vessel which goes with the noise.

Due to the nature of the gravimeter, it is suggested that this effect seen in the gravimeter should be better classified under a category of seismology.

Honestly, this seems like complete word salad to me. I really have no idea what you're trying to say.
My point is, the explanation in RE is clear. You're either travelling with or against the spin of the earth, that affects the centrifugal force experienced by an object and thus the object's weight.
Wouldn't you say that the empirical observations better fit that model than a FE one where there is no real explanation?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2020, 08:52:56 PM »
That looks like a pretty poor experiment.



There are many different things affecting the weight here, causing it to bounce up and down. And you think that averaging it all out will tell you what the ultimate cause is here?

I am pretty sure his flights lasted longer than 90 seconds. Showing us a carefully selected portion of his trip is hardly comprehensive.

This is just like the experiment you posted of the swirl of a tub. A singular experiment that you think proves something because someone claimed to get the right direction, while ignoring the people who got a different result. Or the Cavendish experiment, an inconsistent experiment admitted by the experimenters to be affected by other causes to get those inconsistent results, from which you conclude that the universal attraction of matter exists, rather than any other thing causing a short range attraction. Totally insufficient experiments which only a superstitious grandmother would conclude is proof (sadly the common mentality).

The Eötvös Effect is a type of experiment historically performed by science with gravimeters - a different instrument. It's not based on a Youtube guy's wildly shifting scale. The effect does not bounce up and down wildly in the gravimeter, and has a clear trend. This isn't a "good experiment." It's a different experiment. And without extraneous repetition or control of the variables it's trash. May as well ask us to stare at television static and tell us that it's proof of the big bang.

Is this airplane scale experiment a controlled experiment? Clearly not. The experimenter can't separate the variables which are affecting the device. Very short, selected time spans. No documentation on how and where it was calibrated, either.

Per the wiki article you mentioned; in order to argue that the Eötvös Effect means anything in the gravimeter tests, you would first need to demonstrate that the gravimeter is what you think it is. Which means addressing the other gravimeter article associated with that wiki page where various scientists describe it as a seismometer.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline TrueRoundEarther

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Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2020, 09:21:09 PM »
That looks like a pretty poor experiment.



There are many different things affecting the weight here, causing it to bounce up and down. And you think that averaging it all out will tell you what the ultimate cause is here?

I am pretty sure his flights lasted longer than 90 seconds. Showing us a carefully selected portion of his trip is hardly comprehensive.

This is just like the experiment you posted of the swirl of a tub. A singular experiment that you think proves something because someone claimed to get the right direction, while ignoring the people who got a different result. Or the Cavendish experiment, an inconsistent experiment admitted by the experimenters to be affected by other causes to get those inconsistent results, from which you conclude that the universal attraction of matter exists, rather than any other thing causing a short range attraction. Totally insufficient experiments which only a superstitious grandmother would conclude is proof (sadly the common mentality).

The Eötvös Effect is a type of experiment historically performed by science with gravimeters - a different instrument. It's not based on a Youtube guy's wildly shifting scale. The effect does not bounce up and down wildly in the gravimeter, and has a clear trend. This isn't a "good experiment." It's a different experiment. And without extraneous repetition or control of the variables it's trash. May as well ask us to stare at television static and tell us that it's proof of the big bang.

Is this airplane scale experiment a controlled experiment? Clearly not. The experimenter can't separate the variables which are affecting the device. Very short, selected time spans. No documentation on how and where it was calibrated, either.

Per the wiki article you mentioned; in order to argue that the Eötvös Effect means anything in the gravimeter tests, you would first need to demonstrate that the gravimeter is what you think it is. Which means addressing the other gravimeter article associated with that wiki page where various scientists describe it as a seismometer.

How is this a poor experiment? AllAroundTheWorld gave a good analysis based on the video.
"Have you ever heard of "evidence"? You should not be lacking in this ability. "

Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2020, 11:33:20 AM »
How is this a poor experiment? AllAroundTheWorld gave a good analysis based on the video.
It's a "poor experiment" from Tom's point of view because it doesn't show what he wants it to show.
Of course there will be a bit of vibration on the plane so the measurement will bounce around a bit but there's a clear trend of the weight being different when flying in the two directions.

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There are many different things affecting the weight here, causing it to bounce up and down. And you think that averaging it all out will tell you what the ultimate cause is here?

No, because that is now how science works. We have a hypothesis of a spinning earth. If the earth is spinning that means a centrifugal force should be acting. That force should counteract some of the force caused by gravity, by how much depends on your latitude. If you are in a plane going East then you are going with the spin of the earth so the force should increase. If you are going West you are going against the spin of the earth so the force should be less. The results of that experiment agree with what you'd expect to see IF the hypothesis is correct. It doesn't prove it is, it doesn't tell you the cause of the result. Again that is not how science works. It's all about experimental evidence adding weight to a hypothesis which the experiment is designed to test.

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This is just like the experiment you posted of the swirl of a tub. A singular experiment that you think proves something because someone claimed to get the right direction, while ignoring the people who got a different result.

I'll let you think about the irony of you saying that in a post there you are literally ignoring someone who got a result you don't like.
And you posting videos of other singular experiments which you think prove a point.
But no, a singular experiment proves nothing. How strange that you think it does when it comes to Rowbotham's "experiments" which are all him literally saying "this is what I observed" with no evidence that he did observe that or that he even did the experiments.

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The Eötvös Effect is a type of experiment historically performed by science with gravimeters - a different instrument.

Not clear what your point is. The hypothesis is simply that the force should vary when flying in different directions. A scale measures force so is a perfectly valid instrument to use

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The effect does not bounce up and down wildly in the gravimeter, and has a clear trend

It might do if it was done on a plane with the inherent vibration which will mean varying results. But the trend was clear in the different directions.

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And without extraneous repetition or control of the variables it's trash.
No, it isn't. Honestly, it's incredible you don't understand this stuff. The amount of things you reject while demonstrating that you clearly don't understand them is ridiculous. No experiment on its own should be thought to be conclusive. It just adds weight - or doesn't, depending on the result - to the hypothesis it's designed to test.

The Wiki article is word salad and explains nothing. This experiment tests the hypothesis and gives a clear result which adds weight to that hypothesis. It doesn't on its own prove anything, but it shows the result you'd expect from the hypothesis.

The Eötvös Effect is a consequence of us living on a spinning balls. As a Flat Earther you either have to
1) Show the effect doesn't actually exist or
2) Find some alternative FE explanation which actually has some merit.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2020, 07:02:57 PM »
This is a bad experiment.

- Brief 90 second time-span that is selected by the user. Do we believe for a second that if he got the same results throughout the plane trip that it would go unreported?

- Experiment is uncontrolled. Is the tilt of the airplane and the tilt of the device on the table exactly the same in each trial?

- Single ad-hoc experiment

- No information on when and where device was calibrated.

- The other experiments on the Eötvös Effect are different experiments, with different instruments
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2020, 07:06:40 PM »
Too bad you edited your post before I sent that answer. Anyway, all the experiments you quoted are at much lower speeds. 25 m/s as in the Wikipedia article is about 90 km/h or 55mph. A plane is about 10 times faster.

There is an online calculator: http://walter.bislins.ch/bloge/index.asp?page=Centrifugal+and+Gravitational+Acceleration+in+an+Aircraft

But it's a shame you edited, I really love the way you quoted a website whose title is "100 Proofs that the Earth is a Globe" (https://www.mezzacotta.net/100proofs/archives/482).
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2020, 07:48:34 PM »
It does appear in the video that he was trying to get the results somewhat in the range of a calculator result. Nonetheless, irrelevant.

We have a single 90 second clip from multi-long hour flights, from someone who is trying to "prove" something on YouTube. What happened to the other footage? Are we to believe that his battery ran out or found something better to do?

Did he tilt the device to test how that affects it? Did he calibrate it in a different environment from the starting point?

The Eötvös Effect in the gravimeter is generally credible as an effect because different science teams recorded it at different times. We know that the gravimeter can record this effect. Eötvös did this with a gravimeter. Not a scale. The nature of this effect relies on the nature of a gravimeter, which may be a seismometer.

This YouTube thing with the scale is a different experiment, conducted with a different instrument, which is clearly insufficient, and which is a single very brief experiment claimed by a single person.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2020, 10:38:46 PM »
It does appear in the video that he was trying to get the results somewhat in the range of a calculator result. Nonetheless, irrelevant.

lol. Yeah, unfortunately I also saw your original post before you edited it. How embarrassing.
So your original claim was that his readings must be wrong because the effect isn't strong enough to cause that much difference.
Now you've realised that you got that wrong you're immediately doing a U-Turn and claiming that he was "trying" to get results within the expected range. What does that even mean?! He got the results he got. How do you "try" to get a certain result? He took measurements, that's what he found.
How strange you don't apply this level of scrutiny to experiments which you think back up your world view... :)

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The Eötvös Effect in the gravimeter is generally credible as an effect because different science teams recorded it at different times. We know that the gravimeter can record this effect. Eötvös did this with a gravimeter. Not a scale. The nature of this effect relies on the nature of a gravimeter.[/url]

Not according to the Wiki page you references but have since deleted when you realised your mistake.

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The Eötvös effect is the change in perceived gravitational force caused by the change in centrifugal acceleration resulting from eastbound or westbound velocity

This effect is about gravitational forces. Scales measure weight, which is the gravitational force felt by an object.
So you weigh less on the moon but your mass is the same as it is on earth.
You started this by claiming that the difference in readings he got were too big.
Then you realised your mistake so changed to claiming that he was "trying" to get readings within the expected values.
Now within the same post you're saying that it's not relevant because he used the "wrong" instrument, despite you agreeing above that the difference he got is within the range you'd expect from calculations.

And of course you then go down the "well, it was only one test" or "How do you know he's not lying/only cherry picking results which suit his agenda" roads. Again, it's interesting how often you post videos of one off experiments which you think back up your world view and how little scrutiny you apply to them.

But as an empiricist I am sure you're looking forward to repeating his experiment and I look forward to seeing your results. :)
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2020, 12:31:30 AM »
It is your responsibility to provide the evidence for your claim. I did not claim that this effect existed for scales. You did. You showed us the equivalent of a single person flushing their toilet, and claiming that it is proof of the Coriolis Effect.

When science seeks to study and demonstrate something, they actually go the lengths to demonstrate it and provide the evidence. Carefully controlled experiments. Multiple scientists all claiming the same thing. The stuff you are presenting is not that.

The truth is if there were many scientists who performed these experiments, we would see a whole list of references, just as we can find them for biology and medicine. We have a large body of evidence for time dilation at different altitudes, as an example. But only a single YouTube scale experiment from a random person for this scale experiment.

Just search for the scale experiments showing this. None found. What is wrong here? Why are their huge bodies of evidence for some things in science, but not this? The thing that is wrong here is your confirmation bias of jumping on some random 90 second thing you found on YouTube, filmed by someone who dedicates their life to trying to prove the RE. As this is all you have, we know that this claim is of low value.

If RE could actually show its claims, they would have done that long ago, and would be able to refer to that body of evidence. Searching YouTube for your proofs would be totally unnecessary. It is frankly embarrassing that you can't rely on science and must rely on Wolfie from the YouTube. This is yet another way we know that RE is wrong.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2020, 09:30:25 AM »
If RE could actually show its claims, they would have done that long ago, and would be able to refer to that body of evidence. Searching YouTube for your proofs would be totally unnecessary. It is frankly embarrassing that you can't rely on science and must rely on Wolfie from the YouTube. This is yet another way we know that RE is wrong.
So, RE is wrong because some guy in this forum didn't provide you scientific experiments proving the effect? Well, my kid didn't show me the evidence for FE, so FE is wrong.

Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2020, 11:26:21 AM »
It is your responsibility to provide the evidence for your claim.
Which has been provided. Obviously because it shows something you don't like you are blundering around first trying to say "Aha, but the effect is far too small to get those results" and then, embarrassingly, you realised your mistake so hastily amended that. hoping we wouldn't notice, to say he was "trying" to get certain results which makes zero sense. He just took some readings and showed the results.
I'm sorry you don't like the results, but they are what they are.

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I did not claim that this effect existed for scales. You did.
That sentence alone is another betrayal of your ignorance of things. The effect doesn't exist "for scales", it simply exists.

The hypotheses are simply this.
Firstly, if we are living on a spinning ball then a centrifugal force should be acting. The magnitude of that force should vary depending on your latitude. And if you do the maths you'll note that we shouldn't all go "flying off" like some of the sillier FE people claim, but there should be a measurable difference at different latitudes. And oh look, the same dude did another video which demonstrates just that:



And note that at the end of the video he urges people to do their own tests and not just take his word for it. So go on then, what's stopping you?

Secondly, if you're travelling going East then you are going with the rotation of the earth which would make the magnitude of that centrifugal force higher, if you're going West you're going against the rotation of the earth so the magnitude will be less.
Which is what the original video shows. You don't have to be on a plane but they go fast enough to mean the effect is easily measurable with the right equipment.

So yeah. We have two hypotheses, the two experiments test those hypothesis. The results don't prove the hypothesis, that's not how science works. But they are in line with what you'd expect if the hypothesis is true.

The effect was originally discovered by ships that were measuring the gravitational field of the earth. Which is a force.
Scales measure weight, which is also a force - it's actually the force acting on a body because of the gravitational field of the earth. So I'd absolutely expect an accurate scale to be able to detect this effect. I'm sorry if you don't understand that but I don't know what I can do about that.

I wouldn't expect there to be a huge body of scientific evidence on this because it's based on the premises that
1) The earth is a spinning ball
2) Centrifugal force is a thing.

Neither of these things are controversial. Repeat experiments were done - also with ships, I don't know if you'd get accurate readings on a scale on ships which rock and move far more than airplanes do, and ships are quite slow so the effect would be harder to measure. But given that the results are in line with a globe earth model which is known to be true, I don't think you're going to get a research grant to pursue the matter. It's an accepted effect, the reasons for it are understood.
What is the FE explanation?

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If RE could actually show its claims, they would have done that long ago
Well, they have. All you're doing is either calling it fake, misunderstanding it or hand waving it away for various spurious reasons.
It's very easy to "prove" yourself right if you ignore or call fake all the evidence showing you to be wrong.

Luckily, these effects are relatively easy to test and as I said the guy actively encourages you to.
There's a bit of outlay but I'm sure the FE community could raise enough money for an accurate scale and a reference weight.
Then you can test this for yourself. I look forward to the results.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 12:04:27 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2020, 01:29:57 PM »

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If RE could actually show its claims, they would have done that long ago
Well, they have. All you're doing is either calling it fake, misunderstanding it or hand waving it away for various spurious reasons.
It's very easy to "prove" yourself right if you ignore or call fake all the evidence showing you to be wrong.

Bonus points for those who disregard centuries of scientific research and experiments, and then claim their opponents suffer from confirmation bias. I really loved that one.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2020, 01:48:38 PM »
So as a follower of the Scientific method one way I could go out to prove something would be to first make a hypothesis. Next instead of going out and trying to prove my hypothesis I would try to disprove it. And if I can’t disprove it then I‘ll know if is right and if not then at least very close to right. So if I had a Hypothesis like I don’t know that the earth is flat or something then I would then I would try to disprove that theory and if I can then I know that that hypothesis is incorrect. And so I would challenge you to do the same thing with a flat earth theory.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2020, 03:03:50 PM »
If RE could actually show its claims, they would have done that long ago, and would be able to refer to that body of evidence. Searching YouTube for your proofs would be totally unnecessary. It is frankly embarrassing that you can't rely on science and must rely on Wolfie from the YouTube. This is yet another way we know that RE is wrong.
So, RE is wrong because some guy in this forum didn't provide you scientific experiments proving the effect? Well, my kid didn't show me the evidence for FE, so FE is wrong.

You left out the part that the RE here search through all of human knowledge and science history to try and post something that shows FE to be wrong. They end up finding one single questionable YouTube experiment. That is evidence that science does not have what it takes.

The hypotheses are simply this.
Firstly, if we are living on a spinning ball then a centrifugal force should be acting. The magnitude of that force should vary depending on your latitude. And if you do the maths you'll note that we shouldn't all go "flying off" like some of the sillier FE people claim, but there should be a measurable difference at different latitudes. And oh look, the same dude did another video which demonstrates just that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkhxPm15PFo

This is a different experiment, and not the effect you are talking about. This effect actually does exist in stationary scales at different latitudes, is more substantial than a single video on YouTube, as it has been repeatedly verified by different investigators.

Sadly, this experiment was not conducted in a vacuum chamber to guard against environmental changes between locations.
 
See: https://wiki.tfes.org/Weight_Variation_by_Latitude

You have now abandoned your original experiment and have moved on to different experiments - total jokes which have been insufficiently controlled.

This experiment actually would be a good one for us to test as a community project in which a scale is sent to different members; in a vacuum chamber where the device is controlled against other factors, alongside a scale which is not controlled, performing the basic science which should have been done long ago.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 03:58:49 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2020, 04:10:56 PM »
This is a different experiment, and not the effect you are talking about.
Correct. But the two effects are related in that they are both predicted results if we are living on a spinning ball. It's often said by FE people that there are no experiments which demonstrate that we live on a spinning globe. Here are two that do just that. Or, to be more precise, they add confidence to that hypothesis.

If we living on a spinning globe then you'd expect weight to vary by latitude because of the centrifugal force.
And you'd expect weight to increase as you're travelling East and decrease as you're travelling West because of the changes in that force.

These experiments clearly show those two effects. And neither of these effects make any sense on a flat, stationary earth.

The Wiki page about the weight changing by latitude and your responses in this thread show that you are not interested in anything which shows your world view may be wrong. First you tried to claim that the result he saw on the planes was far bigger than you'd expect. When you realised your mistake, you hastily edited your post. Unluckily for you, a couple of us saw the original post. :)
But in the edited post all you do is now claim that he was "trying" to get the results in the range of the calculated result.
So first the results aren't in line with expected amounts, then when you realise they are it's because he's "trying" to get those results, whatever that means.
It just shows you're not interested in results unless you believe them to back up your world view.

And I once again would like you, if you're honest with yourself, to compare and contrast your reaction to these experiments with the way you unquestioningly post videos of experiments which you do think match your world view. You don't seem to apply the slightest bit of scrutiny to those. It's a bit disingenuous, isn't it?

But anyway, as this YouTuber himself says, have a go yourself if you're really interested in the truth. Are you?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2020, 08:59:13 PM »


This is just like the experiment you posted of the swirl of a tub. A singular experiment that you think proves something because someone claimed to get the right direction, while ignoring the people who got a different result.

You mean like you and the one example of GPS inaccuracy in the history of the world?  Come on Tom, try harder.
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Re: Eötvös Effect
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2020, 12:34:54 PM »
You left out the part that the RE here search through all of human knowledge and science history to try and post something that shows FE to be wrong.
RE here - not all REs - and search only on youtube - not all human knowledge. My kid searched through all my home library and found no FE proof - FE is wrong.