#### OblateSpheroid

• 1
##### Australia on flat Earth
« on: February 06, 2020, 02:11:29 AM »
I don't know if you've noticed, but Australia doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense on flat Earth...

Look how the flat Earth map squeezes Australia, haha. I was wondering if there are any other flat Earth maps that would make Australia look more like it looks on the globe?

I also came up with a great way to test whether or not the Earth is flat. Just buy an airplane or something, and then fly from the North coast of Australia to the South coast of Australia with constant speed, and measure how long it takes in hours. Then do the same with the West coast and the East coast. Then divide the numbers and see what you got. If you got 0.54, then you proved that the globe Earth map is correct. But if you got 0.23, then you proved that the flat Earth map is correct. However I'm not sure if this is the easiest way to test flat Earth.

I was also wondering; if this distorted version of Australia is the true Australia, how is it possible that no-one has noticed it?

#### Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6743
• Flat Earth Believer
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2020, 02:28:52 AM »
There is a map gallery showing slightly different versions of Australia at https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

#### inquisitive

• 1062
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2020, 07:09:53 PM »
There is a map gallery showing slightly different versions of Australia at https://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps
Which version has the correct distances?

#### kidmaciek

• 1
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2020, 01:32:01 PM »
I'm new here, but after reading FAQ I wanted to ask about the same thing, so I hope the above question will be answered, because dimensions of some continents on Flat Earth (Australia, as mentioned, but also Africa) seem to be much different than on Round Earth. The truth is, whatever we believe in, we share the same Earth and its measurements are the same for everyone, right? So, my question would be: is this (https://wiki.tfes.org/File:Map.png) an actual model of Flat Earth (as globe is for Round Earth) with accurate distances, or just a projection? I understand that it's just a proposed Flat Earth (not definite) and there are different proposals, but one of them must be the correct one, because after all, the Earth we live on has a definite shape and measurements.

#### inquisitive

• 1062
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2020, 07:23:55 PM »
No surprise that Tom has not answered.

#### Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6743
• Flat Earth Believer
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2020, 07:29:48 PM »
A fallacy in all of this may be assuming that the Antarctica depicted in the first picture is a "globe australia." Since surveyors use plane surveying methods, that's the Flat Earth Australia.

The discussion is mostly on the nature, dimensions, and layout of the oceans, which are not mapped out with plane surveying methods (no land features on the ocean), and assume an RE.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

#### inquisitive

• 1062
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2020, 07:54:49 PM »
A fallacy in all of this may be assuming that the Antarctica depicted in the first picture is a "globe australia." Since surveyors use plane surveying methods, that's the Flat Earth Australia.

The discussion is mostly on the nature, dimensions, and layout of the oceans, which are not mapped out with plane surveying methods (no land features on the ocean), and assume an RE.
I was asking which was the accurate correct map of Australia.  Distances measured across the earth confirm the size and shape.

#### Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6743
• Flat Earth Believer
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2020, 08:02:02 PM »
The correct Australia is probably the one which was mapped with the standard method of plane surveying.

http://www.vermessungsseiten.de/englisch/vermtech/plane.htm

Quote
Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering and Geodetic Science
Geodetic and Geoinformation Science Section
GS/CE400.01 Introduction to Surveying
GS601 Introduction to Mapping and Photogrammetry
Friday, 21st September, 2001.

The Flat Earth Society Strikes Again!

Plane surveying, which assumes that the Earth is flat, is the most commonly practised form of surveying. It consists primarily of locating the positions of features on the ground (or fairly close to it). This is achieved, in the first instance, by a combination of angular and linear measurement. Linear measurement is therefore at the foundation of surveying, which is at the foundation of the geomatics and geodetic science disciplines. It is this process of measuring things on the ground which is fundamental to later, fancier measurement systems. All of photogrammetry comes to nothing unless we can ascertain its results with respect to what is really on the ground. GPS is worthless if the base stations' locations are not known and receivers can't be tested against ground values. Mapping and GIS require the ability to check data in the database against what's on the ground.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 08:13:16 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

#### inquisitive

• 1062
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2020, 08:45:29 PM »
The correct Australia is probably the one which was mapped with the standard method of plane surveying.

http://www.vermessungsseiten.de/englisch/vermtech/plane.htm

Quote
Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering and Geodetic Science
Geodetic and Geoinformation Science Section
GS/CE400.01 Introduction to Surveying
GS601 Introduction to Mapping and Photogrammetry
Friday, 21st September, 2001.

The Flat Earth Society Strikes Again!

Plane surveying, which assumes that the Earth is flat, is the most commonly practised form of surveying. It consists primarily of locating the positions of features on the ground (or fairly close to it). This is achieved, in the first instance, by a combination of angular and linear measurement. Linear measurement is therefore at the foundation of surveying, which is at the foundation of the geomatics and geodetic science disciplines. It is this process of measuring things on the ground which is fundamental to later, fancier measurement systems. All of photogrammetry comes to nothing unless we can ascertain its results with respect to what is really on the ground. GPS is worthless if the base stations' locations are not known and receivers can't be tested against ground values. Mapping and GIS require the ability to check data in the database against what's on the ground.
And the next paragraph says?

#### Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6743
• Flat Earth Believer
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2020, 08:55:13 PM »
It says that Flat Earth assumptions can become inaccurate at long distances.

Such statements are only based on "theory," however. If you think that the earth is a sphere, that would be true.

Yet, in practice, the widely used WGS84 system uses flat maps.

http://www.boshamlife.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/PrimeMeridian.pdf

Quote
By 1911, the Greenwich meridian had been accepted as the prime meridian for the whole world. However, relating the maps of an individual country or region to a standard system of latitude and longitude is not only difficult, it is nearly impossible. The earth is approximately spherical, but maps are flat. They are fitted as closely as possible to the surface of the earth in one region, but when fitting them to a standard system of latitude and longitude, there are bound to be slight discrepancies. The differences between the coordinate systems used by different maps really didn’t matter until recently. When the GPS system was introduced in the 1980s, it was realised that having dozens of ‘local’ systems of latitude and longitude for different countries wasn’t going to work. A single coordinate system had to be devised, which would give the best results for every part of the world. It is known as WGS 84 (World Geodetic System 1984).
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 11:11:45 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

#### inquisitive

• 1062
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2020, 09:23:57 PM »
It says that Flat Earth assumptions can become inaccurate at long distances.

Such statements are only based on "theory," however. If you think that the earth is a sphere, that would be true. Yet the widely used WGS84 system uses flat maps.

http://www.boshamlife.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/PrimeMeridian.pdf

Quote
By 1911, the Greenwich meridian had been accepted as the prime meridian for the whole world. However, relating the maps of an individual country or region to a standard system of latitude and longitude is not only difficult, it is nearly impossible. The earth is approximately spherical, but maps are flat. They are fitted as closely as possible to the surface of the earth in one region, but when fitting them to a standard system of latitude and longitude, there are bound to be slight discrepancies. The differences between the coordinate systems used by different maps really didn’t matter until recently. When the GPS system was introduced in the 1980s, it was realised that having dozens of ‘local’ systems of latitude and longitude for different countries wasn’t going to work. A single coordinate system had to be devised, which would give the best results for every part of the world. It is known as WGS 84 (World Geodetic System 1984).
The WGS84 does not use flat maps.  It defines the size and shape of the earth in 3 dimensions. You should understand projections.

I assume you do not really believe the earth is not a sphere, but just enjoy being here.  The explanation of how satellite TV works is awaited.

#### Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6743
• Flat Earth Believer
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2020, 11:05:59 PM »
The WGS84 does not use flat maps.  It defines the size and shape of the earth in 3 dimensions. You should understand projections.

Are you sure about that? Utah's Automated Geographic Reference Center's "The Earth is Not Round!" article says that WGS84 pulls data from flat map systems for accurate map data:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

#### stack

• 1362
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2020, 12:40:25 AM »
The WGS84 does not use flat maps.  It defines the size and shape of the earth in 3 dimensions. You should understand projections.

Are you sure about that? Utah's Automated Geographic Reference Center's "The Earth is Not Round!" article says that WGS84 pulls data from flat map systems for accurate map data:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections

Curious that the article uses this as a reference:

Are you sure about that?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

#### Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6743
• Flat Earth Believer
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2020, 12:57:52 AM »
Yes, it says that the flat earth maps have an ellipsoid datum.

Quote
UTM NAD83 is a projected coordinate system that represents physical locations abstracted to a flat, cartesian coordinate system. The UTM NAD83 projection uses the GRS80 ellipsoid and a center-of-the-earth anchor point as its datum

It's used to connect and align to systems which have a 3D spherical coordinate system.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

#### stack

• 1362
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2020, 05:32:48 AM »
Yes, it says that the flat earth maps have an ellipsoid datum.

Quote
UTM NAD83 is a projected coordinate system that represents physical locations abstracted to a flat, cartesian coordinate system. The UTM NAD83 projection uses the GRS80 ellipsoid and a center-of-the-earth anchor point as its datum

It's used to connect and align to systems which have a 3D spherical coordinate system.

You have a point in there somewhere. What might that be?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

#### inquisitive

• 1062
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2020, 09:42:41 AM »
Yes, it says that the flat earth maps have an ellipsoid datum.

Quote
UTM NAD83 is a projected coordinate system that represents physical locations abstracted to a flat, cartesian coordinate system. The UTM NAD83 projection uses the GRS80 ellipsoid and a center-of-the-earth anchor point as its datum

It's used to connect and align to systems which have a 3D spherical coordinate system.
Flat earth maps, as in a map on a flat surface that is a projection of part of the spherical shape of the earth, as you know.

#### robinofloxley

• 129
##### Re: Australia on flat Earth
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2020, 04:58:32 PM »
Yes, it says that the flat earth maps have an ellipsoid datum.

Quote
UTM NAD83 is a projected coordinate system that represents physical locations abstracted to a flat, cartesian coordinate system. The UTM NAD83 projection uses the GRS80 ellipsoid and a center-of-the-earth anchor point as its datum

It's used to connect and align to systems which have a 3D spherical coordinate system.

NAD83 is emphatically based on a 3-dimensional ellipsoid. Sure you can apply a UTM projection to it to generate a map on a flat 2D surface, but then you can apply a UTM transformation to a basketball if you really want and produce a flat 2D map of a basketball, but that doesn't make the basketball 2-dimensional any more than it makes the NAD83 ellipsoid 2-dimensional.