Offline Person

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Question about the Ice Wall
« on: January 29, 2020, 12:16:49 AM »
Hi.

According to the tfes wikia, specifically this article: https://wiki.tfes.org/Samuel_Rowbotham

Mr. Rowbotham says the next:
"But in reference to matter, and material combinations and phenomena, we should be content with nothing less than conviction, the result of special practical experimental investigation."

Since all the TFES theories should be based on experimental evidence, I would like to know what kind of experimental evidence does the TFES have about the Ice Wall.

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Ice_Wall

What I mean with experimental evidence is not only a recorded video or photograph, but also mathematical calculations of its height, composition, age and evolutive changes over the millennia, what geological process/es contributed to its formation etc.

If you are not able to offer such experimental investigation directly here, please, let me know where I can read about this information WITHIN the TFES literature (not on globe earth essays).

Thank you.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2020, 06:27:21 AM »
Sorry, you use the words "experimental evidence" to mean the very opposite of what it means to us - dry numbers, unverifiable hypotheses about something's origins, etc.

We know how tall the Ice Wall is because we've seen it. The composition of Antarctica had been studied by RE'ers and FE'ers alike.

Finally, your added requirement of people having done the research being FE'ers is silly. We do not reject knowledge just because the person providing it is wearing the "wrong" badge. We learn from each other and adapt our views with new evidence.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 06:29:09 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Naiani

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2020, 12:43:30 PM »
Quote
We know how tall the Ice Wall is because we've seen it. The composition of Antarctica had been studied by RE'ers and FE'ers alike.

I'm sorry, but you have not seen any ice wall, as it doesn't exist. If someone had seen it, they would have taken pictures or video, and it would have swept the world within a day. I am a person who needs proof to believe a claim. Please show your video or pictures of this ice wall that you and several other people have seen. I have several questions that I like to ask flat earth believers, and I've never received an answer for any of them, I'm always told "we haven't figured that out yet.

I have to say that this was a pretty bold statement for you to make, when you can't back it up with proof.

I did look at the video you have up. It shows part of the coast of Antarctica, and the thing is, it is curving the wrong way to be the outer wall around the entire globe? planet? plane? Whatever it is you call the earth. This can be circumnavigated in a short period of time by plane, and several days by boat. In fact there is a yearly boat race circumnavigating the south pole every year. My mother has been to Antarctica, and stood upon it, and was able to hike a bit of it. She has pictures as proof. This video would have to be months long, if not over a year, in order to follow it around the outer edge as you all claim. All your video proves is that there is a continent at the southern hemisphere of our globe.

So, tell me why the seasons are different in the southern hemisphere. Why do they see different stars? Why do they get 24 hours of sunlight in the summer and almost no sun in the winter, when the rest of the earth doesn't have this phenomenon. What holds the sun, or spotlight, or whatever you call it up? How does it travel? Why are other planets that we can see spherical? What causes the moons phases if it is nothing but a light? Please show pics of this "translucent" light that you guys keep claiming exists. What causes eclipses? There are so many things you guys deny or have no answers for, yet are unable to disprove our known science. Usually you just say things like "I can't believe that is how it works", or "that's just stupid". Not being able to understand something doesn't make it wrong.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 12:58:52 PM by Naiani »

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Offline RoundLurker

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2020, 12:59:02 PM »
I can't speak for Pete,  but I suspect what he means is we've all seen the same thing.  FE'ers view is the thing we've seen as an ice wall, your view is that the thing we've seen is a continent on a round earth.

In the same way that looking out of your window doesn't prove a flat earth or round earth because of the sheer scale, staring an a wall of ice in the Antarctic doesn't tell you whether it's curving around you or away form you, because the scale makes the curve imperceptible.

Personally, I believe that it has been circumnavigated (distance of approx 13.5k km) which supports a globe earth theory.

https://www.noaa.gov/news/saildrone-is-first-to-circumnavigate-antarctica-in-search-for-carbon-dioxide
https://www.yachtingworld.com/voyages/sailing-antarctica-record-breaking-voyage-around-southern-continent-123341
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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2020, 01:34:28 PM »
Quote
We know how tall the Ice Wall is because we've seen it. The composition of Antarctica had been studied by RE'ers and FE'ers alike.

I'm sorry, but you have not seen any ice wall, as it doesn't exist. If someone had seen it, they would have taken pictures or video, and it would have swept the world within a day. I am a person who needs proof to believe a claim. Please show your video or pictures of this ice wall that you and several other people have seen. I have several questions that I like to ask flat earth believers, and I've never received an answer for any of them, I'm always told "we haven't figured that out yet.


https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Ice_Wall

Funny, those sure look like pictures of the Ice Wall to me!

Further, Captain Cook wrote in the log of his extensive journey at sea: "The ice extended east and west, far beyond the reach of our sight, while the southern half of the horizon was illuminated by rays of light which were reflected from the ice to a considerable height. It was indeed my opinion that this ice extends quite to the pole or perhaps joins some land to which it has been fixed since creation." - Captain James Cook


Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2020, 01:41:30 PM »
To be fair you can also find pictures of the antarctic coastline does doesn't look like an ice wall, meaning that the coast isn't an ice wall all the way round the continent.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2020, 01:43:45 PM »
To be fair you can also find pictures of the antarctic coastline does doesn't look like an ice wall, meaning that the coast isn't an ice wall all the way round the continent.
Yes, a statement of "The Ice Wall surrounds 95% of the Antarctic coast" quite strongly implies that you can find parts of the Antarctic coast that do not look like an ice wall. Why did you feel the need to say this?
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2020, 01:52:14 PM »
To be fair you can also find pictures of the antarctic coastline does doesn't look like an ice wall, meaning that the coast isn't an ice wall all the way round the continent.
Yes, a statement of "The Ice Wall surrounds 95% of the Antarctic coast" quite strongly implies that you can find parts of the Antarctic coast that do not look like an ice wall. Why did you feel the need to say this?
Because the implication here is that the coast isn't stopping explorers getting onto the land and exploring it. The 'ice wall' isn't a blocker and people have gone beyond it. It was in response to totallackey and the wiki suggesting that seeing pictures of ice walls is somehow evidence that it's a wall going round the flat world not a continent at the bottom of the globe. Pictures of a wall of ice don't prove anything IMO.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2020, 10:08:53 PM »
Because the implication here is that the coast isn't stopping explorers getting onto the land and exploring it. The 'ice wall' isn't a blocker and people have gone beyond it.
Nobody is arguing against that. Why are you stating obvious things that we've already claimed and acting as if they were somehow insightful?
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Offline Naiani

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2020, 10:59:27 AM »
Quote
Because the implication here is that the coast isn't stopping explorers getting onto the land and exploring it. The 'ice wall' isn't a blocker and people have gone beyond it.
Nobody is arguing against that. Why are you stating obvious things that we've already claimed and acting as if they were somehow insightful?

We aren't acting as if they were somehow insightful. We are asking for proof that this wall goes around the entire flat earth. Showing a section that looks like a wall, and appears to be around 200 feet long, is not showing us that this goes around the entirety of the world. Can you show us an explorer that has traversed the entire length of this wall, and shown the total number of miles or kilometers traveled? Can you show us photos taken from a plane of it? The one that was shown on a forum, the wall appeared to be less than 100 feet high, and it kept curving away from them, when it should have been curving toward them. They even showed a piece of video where they looked back at it, and it was curving away from them, as it would if it were a continent, not a wall encircling the world. Surely someone has navigated this wall, as it would be the ultimate proof that you are correct, and would be relatively easy to do.

Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2020, 02:40:20 PM »
Quote
Because the implication here is that the coast isn't stopping explorers getting onto the land and exploring it. The 'ice wall' isn't a blocker and people have gone beyond it.
Nobody is arguing against that. Why are you stating obvious things that we've already claimed and acting as if they were somehow insightful?

We aren't acting as if they were somehow insightful. We are asking for proof that this wall goes around the entire flat earth. Showing a section that looks like a wall, and appears to be around 200 feet long, is not showing us that this goes around the entirety of the world. Can you show us an explorer that has traversed the entire length of this wall, and shown the total number of miles or kilometers traveled? Can you show us photos taken from a plane of it? The one that was shown on a forum, the wall appeared to be less than 100 feet high, and it kept curving away from them, when it should have been curving toward them. They even showed a piece of video where they looked back at it, and it was curving away from them, as it would if it were a continent, not a wall encircling the world. Surely someone has navigated this wall, as it would be the ultimate proof that you are correct, and would be relatively easy to do.
The picture I posted clearly shows an ice wall curving toward the photographer.

Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2020, 02:59:24 PM »
"The picture I posted clearly shows an ice wall curving toward the photographer"


If indeed the wall circled the entire flat earth disk, I doubt if you could see a curve while viewing the small section shown in this photograph.


Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2020, 04:25:18 PM »
"The picture I posted clearly shows an ice wall curving toward the photographer"


If indeed the wall circled the entire flat earth disk, I doubt if you could see a curve while viewing the small section shown in this photograph.
Nothing wrong with having doubt.

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Offline RoundLurker

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2020, 10:11:55 AM »
Quote
Because the implication here is that the coast isn't stopping explorers getting onto the land and exploring it. The 'ice wall' isn't a blocker and people have gone beyond it.
Nobody is arguing against that. Why are you stating obvious things that we've already claimed and acting as if they were somehow insightful?

We aren't acting as if they were somehow insightful. We are asking for proof that this wall goes around the entire flat earth. Showing a section that looks like a wall, and appears to be around 200 feet long, is not showing us that this goes around the entirety of the world. Can you show us an explorer that has traversed the entire length of this wall, and shown the total number of miles or kilometers traveled? Can you show us photos taken from a plane of it? The one that was shown on a forum, the wall appeared to be less than 100 feet high, and it kept curving away from them, when it should have been curving toward them. They even showed a piece of video where they looked back at it, and it was curving away from them, as it would if it were a continent, not a wall encircling the world. Surely someone has navigated this wall, as it would be the ultimate proof that you are correct, and would be relatively easy to do.
The picture I posted clearly shows an ice wall curving toward the photographer.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You can't be suggesting that a few meters of curvature in a photo proves/disproves anything. I can share a picture showing the curvature of the Earth but it adds no value here.

I have presented a first-hand accounts of people claiming to circumnavigate Antartica corroborating a RE theory.  You've presented a photo of a wall of ice which demonstrates nothing except that there's ice at the antarctic. And, by the way, if you're suggesting that Cook's account somehow supports your theory I totally reject that. 
The person in my avatar does not exist, and that's unsettling.

Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2020, 11:56:16 AM »
Quote
Because the implication here is that the coast isn't stopping explorers getting onto the land and exploring it. The 'ice wall' isn't a blocker and people have gone beyond it.
Nobody is arguing against that. Why are you stating obvious things that we've already claimed and acting as if they were somehow insightful?

We aren't acting as if they were somehow insightful. We are asking for proof that this wall goes around the entire flat earth. Showing a section that looks like a wall, and appears to be around 200 feet long, is not showing us that this goes around the entirety of the world. Can you show us an explorer that has traversed the entire length of this wall, and shown the total number of miles or kilometers traveled? Can you show us photos taken from a plane of it? The one that was shown on a forum, the wall appeared to be less than 100 feet high, and it kept curving away from them, when it should have been curving toward them. They even showed a piece of video where they looked back at it, and it was curving away from them, as it would if it were a continent, not a wall encircling the world. Surely someone has navigated this wall, as it would be the ultimate proof that you are correct, and would be relatively easy to do.
The picture I posted clearly shows an ice wall curving toward the photographer.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You can't be suggesting that a few meters of curvature in a photo proves/disproves anything. I can share a picture showing the curvature of the Earth but it adds no value here.

I have presented a first-hand accounts of people claiming to circumnavigate Antartica corroborating a RE theory.  You've presented a photo of a wall of ice which demonstrates nothing except that there's ice at the antarctic. And, by the way, if you're suggesting that Cook's account somehow supports your theory I totally reject that.
Reject away.

Cook was there, wrote his account, and it stands.

The picture I provided shows curvature toward the photographer, something the member I responded to in my post claimed didn't exist.

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Offline RoundLurker

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2020, 03:49:28 PM »
Quote
Because the implication here is that the coast isn't stopping explorers getting onto the land and exploring it. The 'ice wall' isn't a blocker and people have gone beyond it.
Nobody is arguing against that. Why are you stating obvious things that we've already claimed and acting as if they were somehow insightful?

We aren't acting as if they were somehow insightful. We are asking for proof that this wall goes around the entire flat earth. Showing a section that looks like a wall, and appears to be around 200 feet long, is not showing us that this goes around the entirety of the world. Can you show us an explorer that has traversed the entire length of this wall, and shown the total number of miles or kilometers traveled? Can you show us photos taken from a plane of it? The one that was shown on a forum, the wall appeared to be less than 100 feet high, and it kept curving away from them, when it should have been curving toward them. They even showed a piece of video where they looked back at it, and it was curving away from them, as it would if it were a continent, not a wall encircling the world. Surely someone has navigated this wall, as it would be the ultimate proof that you are correct, and would be relatively easy to do.
The picture I posted clearly shows an ice wall curving toward the photographer.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You can't be suggesting that a few meters of curvature in a photo proves/disproves anything. I can share a picture showing the curvature of the Earth but it adds no value here.

I have presented a first-hand accounts of people claiming to circumnavigate Antartica corroborating a RE theory.  You've presented a photo of a wall of ice which demonstrates nothing except that there's ice at the antarctic. And, by the way, if you're suggesting that Cook's account somehow supports your theory I totally reject that.
Reject away.

Cook was there, wrote his account, and it stands.

The picture I provided shows curvature toward the photographer, something the member I responded to in my post claimed didn't exist.

Yes, it stands as an account. It doesn't suggest a flat Earth (not even indirectly), but I suspect you know that.

Likewise, I suspect you know that the photo you shared doesn't prove that many thousands of miles of ice wall curves around the photographer, as the curve would be imperceptible at that distance.

Do you have anything to say on the first-person accounts I shared?  If not, I guess this conversation has run its course.
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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2020, 10:47:51 PM »
Cook was there, wrote his account, and it stands.

It does stand.
But he was there in the 1770s.
Why are you cherry picking that account and ignoring all the accounts and exploration of Antarctica which has happened since?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline somerled

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Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2020, 04:21:11 PM »
Cook was there, wrote his account, and it stands.

It does stand.
But he was there in the 1770s.
Why are you cherry picking that account and ignoring all the accounts and exploration of Antarctica which has happened since?

Captain Ross 1840s four year scientific expedition also makes mention of the great ice barrier . Decent account here . https://www.hakluyt.com/PDF/Campbell_Part1_Introduction.pdf

Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2020, 04:38:52 PM »
Cook was there, wrote his account, and it stands.

It does stand.
But he was there in the 1770s.
Why are you cherry picking that account and ignoring all the accounts and exploration of Antarctica which has happened since?
What do you mean cherry picking? It's not as if there were any more prominent accounts from which to refer.

Captain Cook was a pretty big deal, you know...

Re: Question about the Ice Wall
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2020, 04:44:33 PM »
Cook was there, wrote his account, and it stands.

It does stand.
But he was there in the 1770s.
Why are you cherry picking that account and ignoring all the accounts and exploration of Antarctica which has happened since?

Captain Ross 1840s four year scientific expedition also makes mention of the great ice barrier . Decent account here . https://www.hakluyt.com/PDF/Campbell_Part1_Introduction.pdf

OK. So that's 180 years ago. Still over 70 years before Scott and Admundsen raced to the South Pole.
You're still cherry picking information from a time before anyone had reached the South Pole.
It's not that these accounts are not valid, it's just that they are not up to date. It's like looking at accounts of people who tried and failed to climb Everest before Sir Edmund Hillary and declaring the task impossible, ignoring Hillary's quest and all subsequent ones.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.