I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« on: January 19, 2020, 08:21:53 PM »
Hello!

I'm a Mechanical Engineer and was inspired by another engineer on the forums to post here. I'd like to state first that I respect anyone's beliefs and do not mean to offend, I only want an honest and fair discussion so that I can understand FE arguments and also FE people. Secondly, I'm a christian, and I know FE and a lot of other non-FE Christians take the bible historically literally, but I do not. I'd prefer not to argue that as your choice to take the bible literally is your choice, not mine.

I've selected a couple of the many topics I've found intriguing in regards to FET.


Gravity... Is it real? is it just Acceleration? or is it Magnitism? I'm open to discuss any other theory other than gravity, but I'll preface with what I think of other theories.

The acceleration theory: Whoever wrote the UA theory page, really butchered the Lorentz equation and doesn't understand Einstein's relativity as it relates to the energy required to reach the speeds we would be traveling by now. For reference, however old you think the earth is, multiply the years by 1.03 and that's how many times the speed of light we are traveling now. I can go into more detail regarding the authors mistakes on that wiki if a member would like me to, but I'd rather stick to the big picture here. FE'rs either believe that the universe is the way I see it where planets and stars revolve around each other or it is just an image on the fabric of the dome. In the first case, our flat world would have to be bound by different physics than worlds around us. Earth would have to be a special exception to the rules that bind the rest of the universe. If you had a high powered telescope (I had the pleasure of using one a few years back at an observatory in Texas) You'd be able to see distant planets travelling around distant stars because of gravity, obviously not acceleration. Gravity explains why planets and rocks don't fly off into space, but sometimes things do, and gravity explains that also. Saturn has rings, and meteorites hit other planets often, thank God for a thick atmosphere to protect us from that horror. In the latter theory, why would God create an environment in which we can observe things that seem one way but aren't that way in reality? I believe God could make FE a reality because God is all powerful, but God is also all good, and it's not in his character to lie en mass to people like that when, being all knowing, must've known that eventually people would be able to observe his creation the way we can now and draw conclusions (i.e. gravity exists) that aren't actually accurate. God doesn't need to do this because he's all powerful and can make the universe work in whichever manner he sees fit.

Magnetism theory: This is actually how I talk to kids about gravity. it makes a lot of sense because gravity and magnetism use the same equation with different constants. The two equations use an inverse square law, so that means as you move away linearly, the force attracting you decreases by a square. In a way, gravity is magnetism, but gravity interacts the same with all matter that has mass. There is also energy, that isn't affected by gravity as it has no mass. There are some theories out there that remain unproven that the expanse of our universe is caused by some sort of dark matter that has he opposite reaction than regular matter has to gravity: it is repelled. But this theory is not proven accurate at this time. So whenever FE'rs say gravity isn't real because look, magnetism, I get confused by what point they are trying to make. I'd like to hear some discussion on this theory in particular. :)

Another topic: This is non-scientific, but more related to statistics. The structure of the FE theory is based on this idea that the government is lying to us. I don't trust the government as much as the next guy, but I'd like to logically break this down. I work in the aerospace industry, and a lot of what I do has to do with altimeters and directional control for the F35 fighter aircraft. I can't discuss my work because security clearance stuff, but the things that I work on in the plane depend on calculations made under the assumption the earth is round. If the earth were actually not round, then the plane would not behave the way that it does. Along with 20 thousand others who work on the same aircraft, and with millions of other people that work in aerospace building rockets, satellites, high altitude spacecraft, etc., all these people including myself are either fools or are in on the conspiracy, and I know for sure it's not the latter for myself. Furthermore, this group of people would have to include the navy. I have a friend who is a naval officer who recently was on a training tour from New Zealand to Chile and it took him 12 days to get there on a rather slow boat (nuclear submarine), and on the FE model, this would have taken months to cover what looks like 25,000 to 30,000 miles. Please explain how it's possible that this many people are either fools and have failed to figure out the government is bamboozling everyone, or are nefarious and are part of the cult government that propagates the globe earth lies, and NOBODY in these critical areas aforementioned have blown their whistle on it. It doesn't seem like a sort of common unspoken knowledge among the elite, like the Clintons are corrupt, or Mrs. Obama is a man. I think it's preposterous to believe that all people in the world (FE are a small minority of the populous and are excluded from this statement) including brilliant engineers, scientists, navy officers, and thousands of other FE/RE relevant positions are either very stupid and foolish and stubborn, or they are so evil and spineless that they allow this conspiracy to continue. The reason I make this last point is becuase if I were a FE'r and heard this perspective, I'd like to believe that I myself didn't have that large of an ego that I believed that I were: much more noble than the general population in my quest for truth, despite the adversity, and also, much more intelligent than the collective society that even the brightest people couldn't figure out the truth and overcome the government lies, that the earth is flat.

Thank you for reading this if you actually did read. In my field of work, many "scientific" people find FE theory among many other groups of people, like young earth people, conspiracy theorists in general, and also religion in general to be stupid and a waste of time to try and argue with people like that, however I find this to be the wrong approach. This leads to a mass group of people being confused about reality, which I believe you, FE reader, are. This isn't my noble crusade, but rather my obligation to God to have discussions like this to spread truth and understanding. One of Gods commandments is to not take his name in vein, and I interpret this to mean, don't make God look bad. I think FE theory makes God look bad, because scientific communities will associate FE with God and my religion and damage God's image. Most of people my breed have no time to do this kind of thing, but I figured I'd maybe use my engineering mind to good work and talk with the good people of the FE society. I hope you feel compelled to discuss some things with me instead of thinking this is stupid and a waste of time, because that would make you no different than my colleges, bless their hearts.

There are so many other things I want to talk about, like balloon rockets, the centripetal force of earth spin and rotation, satellite television, the mechanics of the sun/moon, and why we can't observe the curve on the surface but this post is already faaaarr too long. If you'd like to discuss other stuff, maybe let's make another thread.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 05:28:46 AM by ImAnEngineerToo »

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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2020, 08:31:36 AM »
For reference, however old you think the earth is, multiply the years by 1.03 and that's how many times the speed of light we are traveling now.
This is where you have immediately outed yourself as lacking understanding in the subject. It's a shame you didn't think to look for/read the comments on UA made by RE'ers with a background in physics. But let's dig deeper. You claim "we" would be "travelling" several times the speed of light. What is this velocity relative to?

As an aside, you've started this discussion in the worst way possible. "I'm right, and if anyone wants me to explain why they're wrong, I will happily oblige!" You're not going to have a healthy discussion with this sort of attitude. I'd suggest starting over. Get a grasp of the basics behind the debate (FET, common RE responses, actual RET [the amount of people who come here to defend RE while having no clue about their model is astonishing], what has and hasn't been done to death) and come back with an open mind.

To have a bilateral discussion, you need to be willing to convince, and to be convinced. If you're not interested in doing that, then honestly this place won't be interesting to you, and your presence here won't be interesting to us.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 09:04:15 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2020, 03:05:08 AM »
Hey man, I come in good faith, pipe it down. I never said what you put in quotes, however I have implied that I am well rooted in believing in a round earth and am willing to hear what you have to say about what I think. Instead of sharing what you thought, you shared how you felt but I'd really like to see what kind of logic we can collectively produce.

Concerning the UA theory: I have read the wiki and I did say I would go into detail. Now that you've asked me in a bombastic way that I go into detail, I will. The problem with UA is that it considers that the earth is implicitly bound by relativism, rather than explicitly. You're only framing earth, when you need to frame the entire universe. Also, the speed of light is less of a speed limit and more of an energy threshold limit. light moves that fast, but not much else. the fastest alpha particle we've ever captured was moving at 99.99% of c, but nothing with or without mass can move faster. The earth would have to exist in a separate frame from the universe and abide by different laws that allow it to accelerate. Your question "relative to what?" by the way, the answer is this: the frame of the universe. Within the universe's inertial frame, nothing can move as fast as we would supposedly be moving. You can't just frame anything you want if the things in your frame are interacting with things outside your frame.


If you were determined to still disagree with the above statement, the only explanation you would have is that earth is bound by different laws than the ether around it, and I have heard this explanation from flat earthers before and wouldn't be surprised if you said that. Then we'd have pin holes in the fabric of the dome and everything would be implicit to the dome by design. That's a different conversation and I don't think that's what you're saying.

As an aside, I will match your belligerence and you can decide how nice this conversation is or you can ban me, but I'd rather not be banned.

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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2020, 06:17:58 AM »
Hey man, I come in good faith, pipe it down
Then act it. If you continue posting here with your current attitude, you'll get bored pretty quickly.

Your question "relative to what?" by the way, the answer is this: the frame of the universe.
There is no such thing as a uniersal reference frame, and the acceleration you used for your thought experiment is relative to an observer who just recently left the Earth.

Please try to identify your frame of reference once again, and once you've done that, please review your calculations to match reality.

Also, the speed of light is less of a speed limit and more of an energy threshold limit.
Once again, you're being very presumptuous in thinking you need to explain the obvious. You will not come across as arguing in good faith when you treat your conversation partner as inferior to you. Please focus on correcting your errors, not on reading out high school textbooks to me.

As an aside, I will match your belligerence and you can decide how nice this conversation is or you can ban me, but I'd rather not be banned.
You mistake a simple statement of facts for belligerence. You won't get banned unless you break the rules.
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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2020, 05:12:37 PM »
Well, Pete, if I believe that I am right, then a side effect is that I believe my view is superior to your view. You mirror this behavior in your own language. Do you believe there's even a slight possibility that you could be wrong yourself? I always leave a sliver of doubt in my own beliefs. Who's to say we don't live in the matrix, or there is a true multi-god system that rules over us, or whatever else alter-reality people have chosen for themselves that are unlikely. My point is just because you believe it vehemently doesn't make it true.

I have nothing more to say, other than you are incorrect in regards to your physics and your critique of what I've said. I think the conversation can end there, as either you are wrong or I am wrong, and I don't believe I'm wrong. A flat earth simply cannot store the amount of energy we would have by now, it breaks the known laws of physics.

You haven't addressed the main point of conjecture I have of FET. How come nobody has blown the whistle from the inside? Is everybody either stupid or evil (or both)? There are so many jobs and roles people have that would rely on a globe earth. To name a few, ANY aircraft pilot, navy officer (like my friend), any aerospace engineer (including myself), satellite operator, any member of government, and the list goes on to include millions of people. Furthermore, how is there a multi-billion dollar space industry if there's nothing to do in space and the entire industry is wrapped in conspiracy? It's not just Aldrin and Armstrong lying about the moon landing, this would take an unimaginable amount of effort.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 06:19:05 PM by ImAnEngineerToo »

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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2020, 10:22:11 PM »
Well, Pete, if I believe that I am right, then a side effect is that I believe my view is superior to your view.
That's really disheartening. I couldn't do that, I'd feel anxious all the time. I sincerely hope your attitude will change with time. That said, this approach is so extremely incompatible with this forum that I'd strongly suggest you look elsewhere. I'm sure there are communities out there that more closely resemble your mindset.

You mirror this behavior in your own language.
I would prefer it if you didn't try to read my mind. I have a feeling you're no good at it.

Do you believe there's even a slight possibility that you could be wrong yourself?
Of course. As I just said, in order to have a meaningful discussion, you must be willing to convince and to be convinced. I don't waste my time with people who just want to listen to themselves proclaiming they're right, and I recommend you don't waste your (and others') time by being that person.

You haven't addressed the main point of conjecture I have of FET. How come nobody has blown the whistle from the inside?
There are several threads about this subject ongoing right now. I'm active in one of them. I will not re-write the same answers for every individual who feels entitled to it. Use the search function, read the Wiki, try to be a little bit less lazy overall.

I have nothing more to say, other than you are incorrect in regards to your physics and your critique of what I've said. I think the conversation can end there, as either you are wrong or I am wrong, and I don't believe I'm wrong.
Indeed. I can only hope that, as you progress with your education, you will one day realise the absurdity of your claims here, especially the part where you tried reasoning about relativity while assuming a universal frame of reference (the very opposite of relativity), and your claim that UA would lead to the Earth exceeding c in any observable frame of reference. I find no joy in RE'ers who don't understand their own model.

Until then, since you explicitly declared that you're not willing to review your errors, I have no choice but to stop wasting my time and wish you a fantastic day.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 10:26:19 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 12:28:21 AM »
You're kinda rude

edit: I did some digging today around the forums and the wiki and couldn't find information pertaining to precisely what I am talking about, in regards to how many people would have to be in on the conspiracy, and the unlikelihood of being able to keep a lid on it.

Also, Pete, I've been thinking... have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger affect?

If you don't mind, I'd like links to where I can find info about the topic above.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 03:17:31 AM by ImAnEngineerToo »

Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2020, 03:47:23 AM »
You're kinda rude

edit: I did some digging today around the forums and the wiki and couldn't find information pertaining to precisely what I am talking about, in regards to how many people would have to be in on the conspiracy, and the unlikelihood of being able to keep a lid on it.

Also, Pete, I've been thinking... have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger affect?

If you don't mind, I'd like links to where I can find info about the topic above.

You won't find anything in the wiki or anywhere else for that matter that supports or gives any kind of evidence or detail on "the conspiracy" . The link below is about the best you can hope for.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Place+of+the+Conspiracy+in+FET

I'll let you draw your own conclusions on how valid the logic is.

Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2020, 06:45:52 AM »
I see the argument now. Valid, yes. Sound, no. Define "unverifiable". Define "obvious truth".

Many FEr's don't understand logical reasoning at all, so at least the wiki had a valid argument. I hear often, "water always finds its level" as a proof. That would look like this:

P1: Water always finds it's level
P2: water on the earth is level
C: the earth is not round

It's not only not sound, the premises have nothing to do with the conclusion and that makes it an invalid argument. I'm not calling out Pete or this forum in general, just the people I've interacted with and witnessed previously.

I'll give Pete or whoever else a chance to respond, but I really want to discuss why millions of people are very quiet about the flat earth, including my own friends, who would know what shape the earth is. Pete said read the wikis, I read the wikis, and I honestly want to hear a rhetorically sound statement from Pete himself with the snark on the side. I guess he won't because he wished me a fantastic day and dipped.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 07:19:56 AM by ImAnEngineerToo »

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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2020, 07:59:51 AM »
You're kinda rude
You were very quick to declare that you would "match my belligerence", and yet you find it "kinda rude" when the same treatment is applied to you. You came into this thread with a lordly attitude of "You're wrong. Why are you so wrong?" and you're surprised that my responses are not very compassionate.

Be the change you'd like to see in the world. Whether it's by heeding my advice (which I'll restate for your benefit: in order to have a meaningful discussion, you must be willing to convince and to be convinced. If you are unwilling to do either of these, you will fail) or by otherwise adjusting your attitude, the ball is in your court.

Also, Pete, I've been thinking... have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger affect?
Yes, I've been to school once or twice. Here's another piece of advice for you: we both have access to Google. If you want to accuse me of exhibiting the Dunning-Kruger effect*, you can just say it. If I don't know what it means, I'll Google it. I will expect the same of you.

* - except that would be against the rules in this particular board, so if you want to throw personal insults around, please do so in the Angry Ranting board. It's fair play there, and it's all in good spirit.

If you don't mind, I'd like links to where I can find info about the topic above.
You weren't particularly forthcoming in evaluating your failures in physics, so I see no reason to accommodate you. Once again, I expect you to be able to use the Internet.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Place+of+the+Conspiracy+in+FET
A few things which might be worth noting:
  • This is not our website.
  • The owners of that website are well aware that their Wiki is in a poor state, and intend to delete it altogether at some point.
  • pricelesspearl knows both these things and has just attempted to deceive you by presenting this as our viewpoint
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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2020, 02:43:23 PM »
Implicitly insulting each other aside, it would almost be less effort to just link something useful at this point than it would to come up with something clever to say back to me that would make me look silly. I've read the wiki and all I've found is info of how we faked the moon landing (which I could make another thread about :)). Since the wiki is the only source of truth and it doesn't seem to have it, I have come to the forums to ask you, Pete, the pro.

As far as the physics go, there's not much to argue about if we can't agree on some facts and principles. Do you want math? What do you want in that regard?

Whether you or I or both of us are the rude or ill-informed one(s), I guess let the rest of the forum decide. I don't have to be open to being convinced, all I need is to respect the opinions of others, and I suppose my ability to do so is being tested, so I apologize if I've faltered.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 02:49:14 PM by ImAnEngineerToo »

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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2020, 03:50:20 PM »
Implicitly insulting each other aside, it would almost be less effort to just link something useful at this point than it would to come up with something clever to say back to me that would make me look silly.
I understand why it might seem that way, but you have to consider the economy of scale. Between social media and this forum, I deal with hundreds of entry-level questions a day. Answering one of those individually isn't much effort. Handling the odd follow-up question or two would probably not be a big deal. But as the problem scales, you have to toughen up. We can't be expected to re-type the same answer over and over, and if you have a look at our Twitter, you'll see that most newcomers don't like the idea of reading a webpage - they want their answer straight from "the pro". Well, "the pros" have already written up the basic answers, and would rather discuss more nuanced things.

This is why we do things differently on this forum. We want you to know the basics before you engage. It helps whittle out people who wouldn't be interested in a real discussion anyway, and who are just trying to quickly earn some Internet points. Similarly, with a good few years of threads backed up, we prefer if people read discussions that already took place - chances are their ideas have been considered before.

Some of your conspiracy questions fall into that category (as in, they're addressed in our Wiki as part of the The Conspiracy page - there is no Round Earth conspiracy), and others are effectively statements of incredulity ("How is it possible that all these people got fooled?") - those I can't really help.

As far as the physics go, there's not much to argue about if we can't agree on some facts and principles. Do you want math? What do you want in that regard?
I don't think maths would help here. Your original argument (the one I was particularly aggressive about, rather than the argument on energy) can be summarised as "9.81%20%5Cfrac%7Bm%7D%7Bs%5E2%7D times a large number of seconds is more than c" - the maths behind it is not difficult. But this assumes that you can identify a frame of reference in which you could observe the Earth accelerating at 9.81%20%5Cfrac%7Bm%7D%7Bs%5E2%7D constantly for an extended length of time, and I'm not convinced you'll be able to. Your attempt at doing that was "the frame of reference is that of the Universe", but that's not a concept that can be defined - the lack of a universal frame of reference is pretty essential to special relativity.

[EDIT: I butchered that latex something fierce]
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 03:55:24 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2020, 11:35:29 PM »
Picking a reference frame isn’t just picking a certain area in space, you are selecting an area of time as well, so when you select a frame that includes the earth, assuming initial velocity could possibly be 0, is limited by c. You can’t just reset the frame every instance of time. The idea of a “universal” just means from the beginning of time (the Big Bang presumably marks this instance, haven’t studied that in particular, not confident enough to argue over it), all matter has either gained or lost energy. The amount of energy mass has determines how close it is to experiencing no passage of time. I’m stressing this idea, because what UA proposes is that the mass of the earth breaks through that zero point, where mass would experience zero time passage, which is not possible. However in some sort of whack idea I had, why isn’t there a theory that the earth works like spinning a bucket of water, that acceleration instead of being linear is rather centripetal? I’d still disagree, but I think that would atleast keep speeds consistent.

edit: forgot to thank you for the links, I appreciate it. Perhaps more research could be done by flat earthers to find out what positions people hold that must must be corrupted, and how are these positions corrupted. Either they are in on it or they are fooled somehow by the governments to think their job is X when really its Y. Like my buddy who traveled a far distance in the southern hemisphere, where did he really travel to? How did they fool him and his ship? etc. i think that info is lacking and if it were there, there would be a more full and convincing explanation of how FET works.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 12:59:03 AM by ImAnEngineerToo »

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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2020, 03:01:16 PM »
Picking a reference frame isn’t just picking a certain area in space
Indeed. But I didn't ask you to define what a frame of reference is. I asked you to identify the frame of reference under which your argument holds. For the avoidance of any doubt, I am specifically referring your argument that the Earth would exceed the speed of light.

when you select a frame that includes the earth, assuming initial velocity could possibly be 0, is limited by c
We need a frame of reference that we can actually verify, not a hypothetical one. The only Earthly frame of reference we can meaningfully investigate is a non-inertial one.

But even if we accept your philosophy for a moment, this is still fine within special relativity. In the inertial frame of reference you've identified (or, well, strongly hinted at), the Earth's acceleration would be not be constant and would quickly approach 0 - but that's a meaningless hypothetical we'll never get to observe. It does not hold much value to Zetetic inquiry.

Perhaps more research could be done by flat earthers to find out what positions people hold that must must be corrupted, and how are these positions corrupted. Either they are in on it or they are fooled somehow by the governments to think their job is X when really its Y. Like my buddy who traveled a far distance in the southern hemisphere, where did he really travel to? How did they fool him and his ship? etc. i think that info is lacking and if it were there, there would be a more full and convincing explanation of how FET works.
Perhaps, but how exactly would you investigate a hypothetical conspiracy so secretive that it hasn't been blown wide open? Especially when investigating it seems to strangely correlate with people having very unfortunate accidents or suddenly going insane. It's very easy to say "more research would be good", but it's not exactly easy to put into action.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:09:16 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2020, 09:41:45 PM »
Quote
Perhaps, but how exactly would you investigate a hypothetical conspiracy so secretive that it hasn't been blown wide open? Especially when investigating it seems to strangely correlate with people having very unfortunate accidents or suddenly going insane. It's very easy to say "more research would be good", but it's not exactly easy to put into action.


The conspiracy is too secretive to be investigated. I guess that means one must wait until it is exposed, and no longer secretive, to investigate it.  But of course, one can’t expose it without investigating…therefore, we can just continue to claim it exists without providing any evidence.

The fact that you can’t prove it exists, is proof that it exists.  Typical circular reasoning of FET.

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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2020, 11:19:13 PM »
therefore, we can just continue to claim it exists without providing any evidence.
"Without any evidence"? My friend, lying is such a bad look for you.
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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2020, 08:21:56 PM »
Gravity... Is it real? is it just Acceleration? or is it Magnitism? I'm open to discuss any other theory other than gravity, but I'll preface with what I think of other theories.

This really depends on the FE model. There are some FE models in which the modern concept of gravity as a bending of spacetime apply, there are some FE models which don't.

For those which the modern concept of gravity as a bending of spacetime do not apply things like atmospheric pressure, UA, or magnetism, density etc could be used to explain why things fall when they are dropped.

The acceleration theory: Whoever wrote the UA theory page, really butchered the Lorentz equation and doesn't understand Einstein's relativity as it relates to the energy required to reach the speeds we would be traveling by now. For reference, however old you think the earth is, multiply the years by 1.03 and that's how many times the speed of light we are traveling now.

speed is all relative. UA is just a concept.If the entire universe was accelerating upwards at 9.8 m/s then the earth's speed, in relation to the universe, would be 0.


The universe could be attached to a large string being swung around a rope by God and that centrifugal force could be another explanation.

Saturn has rings, and meteorites hit other planets often, thank God for a thick atmosphere to protect us from that horror. In the latter theory, why would God create an environment in which we can observe things that seem one way but aren't that way in reality?

This question sounds like it's associated with the more biblical FE models. The answer to that is simple. God would create  an environment in which we can observe things that seem one way but aren't that way in reality to test your faith.

I believe God could make FE a reality because God is all powerful, but God is also all good, and it's not in his character to lie en mass to people like that when, being all knowing, must've known that eventually people would be able to observe his creation the way we can now and draw conclusions (i.e. gravity exists) that aren't actually accurate. God doesn't need to do this because he's all powerful and can make the universe work in whichever manner he sees fit.

I guess that really depends on what version of God you chose to worship and what you define "Good" as. The God of Christianity has violently murdered many babies through the great flood and the killing of the first born in Egypt. Murdering innocent children unrelated to the political strife at the time seems pretty brutal to me.

Magnetism theory: This is actually how I talk to kids about gravity. it makes a lot of sense because gravity and magnetism use the same equation with different constants. The two equations use an inverse square law, so that means as you move away linearly, the force attracting you decreases by a square. In a way, gravity is magnetism, but gravity interacts the same with all matter that has mass. There is also energy, that isn't affected by gravity as it has no mass. There are some theories out there that remain unproven that the expanse of our universe is caused by some sort of dark matter that has he opposite reaction than regular matter has to gravity: it is repelled. But this theory is not proven accurate at this time. So whenever FE'rs say gravity isn't real because look, magnetism, I get confused by what point they are trying to make. I'd like to hear some discussion on this theory in particular. :)

I don't know much about the magnetic FE version of gravity. I assume that it operates on the idea that there is a magnetic force under the earth and we are drawn to that force.

Another topic: This is non-scientific, but more related to statistics. The structure of the FE theory is based on this idea that the government is lying to us. I don't trust the government as much as the next guy, but I'd like to logically break this down. I work in the aerospace industry, and a lot of what I do has to do with altimeters and directional control for the F35 fighter aircraft. I can't discuss my work because security clearance stuff, but the things that I work on in the plane depend on calculations made under the assumption the earth is round. If the earth were actually not round, then the plane would not behave the way that it does. Along with 20 thousand others who work on the same aircraft, and with millions of other people that work in aerospace building rockets, satellites, high altitude spacecraft, etc., all these people including myself are either fools or are in on the conspiracy, and I know for sure it's not the latter for myself. Furthermore, this group of people would have to include the navy. I have a friend who is a naval officer who recently was on a training tour from New Zealand to Chile and it took him 12 days to get there on a rather slow boat (nuclear submarine), and on the FE model, this would have taken months to cover what looks like 25,000 to 30,000 miles. Please explain how it's possible that this many people are either fools and have failed to figure out the government is bamboozling everyone, or are nefarious and are part of the cult government that propagates the globe earth lies, and NOBODY in these critical areas aforementioned have blown their whistle on it. It doesn't seem like a sort of common unspoken knowledge among the elite, like the Clintons are corrupt, or Mrs. Obama is a man. I think it's preposterous to believe that all people in the world (FE are a small minority of the populous and are excluded from this statement) including brilliant engineers, scientists, navy officers, and thousands of other FE/RE relevant positions are either very stupid and foolish and stubborn, or they are so evil and spineless that they allow this conspiracy to continue. The reason I make this last point is becuase if I were a FE'r and heard this perspective, I'd like to believe that I myself didn't have that large of an ego that I believed that I were: much more noble than the general population in my quest for truth, despite the adversity, and also, much more intelligent than the collective society that even the brightest people couldn't figure out the truth and overcome the government lies, that the earth is flat.

First off I agree with your point. The more people who must be involved in a conspiracy the less likely a conspiracy is to be true.  There are two points here:

First point:
If you were indoctrinated into something from birth it becomes much easier to believe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave



If you spend your entire life from birth thinking the world is nothing more than shadows on a cave to have someone come back speaking utter nonsense you would aggressively defend your original view.


Second point:
This is keeping information secret. Which people are very good at doing.  The total number of people in the of armies in the world is in the tens or hundreds of millions. They are all able to keep their technology and information secret from 99.9% of the worlds population.


« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 11:02:24 PM by iamcpc »

Offline Naiani

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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2020, 01:30:25 PM »
One thing that no one has ever explained to me is why. Why would not only the United States, but the entire world participate in this "lie" that the earth is round. Why would the world spend untold billions of dollars to keep people believing it is round. What do they gain? No govt does anything for free. People don't give govts money because they believe the world is round. There is literally nothing to be gained by keeping the truth of the "flat earth" from the populous. In fact, thousands of years ago, most societies believed the world was flat, and it didn't cause anyone stress in any way. So why would they suddenly start lying and saying it is round? They can't control us any more than they already do by a lie like that. Why in the world would they suddenly, all together start telling a lie on this scale. Every country, even ones who are fighting with each other suddenly chose to lie? Why? When countries who are competing with each other would tell a different story, just to get one over on the country they are competing with. I've never received an answer to this question.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2020, 07:47:22 PM »
The government had nothing to gain from fostering the idea of RE during the cold war and space race?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline iamcpc

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Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2020, 10:58:36 PM »
The government had nothing to gain from fostering the idea of RE during the cold war and space race?



There are other possible reasons too. The space agencies make billions of dollars. If I could spend 800 million to make a government believe i was really going to space and have that government pay me a billion dollars that's a sweet profit!! CHA CHING!!

Another thing is the idea from a military perspective. Accurate maps could be considered a closely guarded military secret. I won't know what a country knows true shape of the earth just like I won't know what a country knows about how they make their atom bombs.



This isn't my noble crusade, but rather my obligation to God to have discussions like this to spread truth and understanding. One of Gods commandments is to not take his name in vein, and I interpret this to mean, don't make God look bad. I think FE theory makes God look bad, because scientific communities will associate FE with God and my religion and damage God's image.

If you're talking about the God of Judaism or Christianity (which i think you are because of your mentioning of the commandments) You should look up Tom Bishop's posts about the Flat, non-moving earth in the bible.


Tom has the full list but I just sent you some

Chronicles 16:30

Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.


The earth cannot be moved. The earth orbiting the sun is movement and the earth rotating on it's axis is movement. Based on this verse the orbit and rotation of the earth is impossible.
Irrefutable PROOF from God.



Matthew 4:8

 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and



The only way to see every kingdom of the earth from the top of a tall mountain is if the earth is flat. If the earth was a sphere you would be unable to see the kingdoms on the opposite side of the earth.
Irrefutable PROOF from God.


Psalm 104:5

He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.


The earth cannot be moved. The earth orbiting the sun is movement and the earth rotating on it's axis is movement. Based on this verse the orbit and rotation of the earth is impossible.
Irrefutable PROOF from God.

Psalmn 93:1

The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.



The earth cannot be moved. The earth orbiting the sun is movement and the earth rotating on it's axis is movement. Based on this verse the orbit and rotation of the earth is impossible.
Irrefutable PROOF from God.


Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:


This is more evidence that irrefutable proof. It's not sitting above the sphere of the earth, or the oblate spheroid of the earth, or the spheroid of the earth. It's a circle.


Habakkuk 3:11
Sun and moon stood still in the heavens at the glint of your flying arrows, at the lightning of your flashing spear.


The sun and moon stopped moving across the sky. Based on the round earth theory this would mean that:

The earth went from moving thousands of miles/hour orbiting the sun to a complete halt.
The earth went from spinning thousands of miles/hour to a complete halt.
The Moon went from orbiting the earth to stopping.

If all of those things happen and we didn't go flying off into space, crash into the sun, or have our entire world demolished by the spinning earth coming to a screeching halt then it is evidence which undeniably supports one of the FE models

Also notice in the verse that the sun and moon stood still not the earth. That is because the earth does not move per verses previously listed.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 05:52:30 PM by iamcpc »