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Offline stack

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #140 on: March 04, 2020, 01:08:39 AM »
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All that photo (which is lovely by the way) shows is that the sun is at an angle such that the rays are pointing towards the viewer
I've had a go at explaining this:



Can you see that if the viewer is where the arrow is and looking in the direction the arrow is pointing in then the black slanting lines which in reality are parallel in 3D space will appear angled towards each other and will appear to be coming from a point? That is what is happening in the image you posted.

You are speaking about a close range perspective effect. Those parallel lines will straighten out when the observer recedes away from them. The distance does matter.



Notice how the lines only appear to be angled at around 80 degrees in relation to each other when the camera is up really close? How does that work when the camera is miles away like in the image of the crepuscular rays over the island which are clearly miles away?

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And I asked you this before, if you believe these rays are really emanating from the sun and you're seeing a lot of their path from it then why can't you see any EA bending effect in their path?

EA occurs over hundreds and thousands of miles.

It would be interesting to see like a dozen parallel lines in the perspective animation you posted. Just 2 lines seems to be misleading.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #141 on: March 04, 2020, 09:06:28 AM »
You are speaking about a close range perspective effect. Those parallel lines will straighten out when the observer recedes away from them. The distance does matter.

Yes, the distance does matter. As does the length and angle of the lines/sun rays. The angle you perceive parallel lines to be at with respect to each other depends on all these things. Sun rays are long and can be at a steep angle, even from a distance that can cause a perspective effect.
Sometimes you can get an effect in a wood where crepuscular rays can look as if they're coming from just above the trees.
Obviously in real life you know that's not where the sun is.

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How does that work when the camera is miles away like in the image of the crepuscular rays over the island which are clearly miles away?
It works by the rays being long and at a steep angle towards the viewer.
If crepuscular rays are not a perspective effect then what are anti-crepuscular rays? In that phenomenon it appears there must be multiple light sources. Again, in real life you know there isn't and it's just a perspective effect as the parallel rays recede into the distance.

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EA occurs over hundreds and thousands of miles.

But if those rays are coming from the sun which is thousands of miles high in your model those rays must be hundreds or thousands of miles long.
You'd surely see some effect.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #142 on: March 04, 2020, 02:38:20 PM »
It would be interesting to see like a dozen parallel lines in the perspective animation you posted. Just 2 lines seems to be misleading.

Rather than cry that something is misrepresented, go to TinkerCAD and spend minutes to make your own model with however many lines you want.

The parallel lines only appear close to a 80 degree angle in relation to each other when the camera is in-between them, and very close.

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Yes, the distance does matter. As does the length and angle of the lines/sun rays.

No, length does not matter. If those lines were long enough to stretch off the screen in my animation they would make the same angle in relation to each other at the same distances. The lines can be any length.

The only place the parallel lines make anywhere close to a 80 degree angle in relationship to each other is when the camera is very close and in-between them. That we can observe rays from the Sun which are miles away do this shows that this perspective argument is insufficient and wrong. It is evidence that the Sun is close.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 08:29:59 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #143 on: March 04, 2020, 04:44:05 PM »
Tom the rays from your position will look the same no matter how far away the origin of the ray is. Here, I made a gif for you using Blender. Here you see a sphere with it's face normals extending out. The gif shows me zooming away from the sphere constantly. See how the rays change angles? Yea me either.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 04:47:58 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #144 on: March 04, 2020, 05:04:38 PM »
I hate to counter my own brethren here but I’ll play on this one. The gif you posted seemed to have rays extending out from all directions from the “sun” but in the phenomenon were discussing, all the rays are reaching a local spot on earth. The gif wouldn’t represent the phenomenon accurately because those rays wouldn’t technically be parallel.

Unless I’m misinterpreting the point you’re trying to make...

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #145 on: March 04, 2020, 05:36:15 PM »
Literally no different than the sun's rays, the object in my gif has lines pointing out perpendicular to the object's surface, much like the suns rays, the point here is the object could be 100 meters or 100,000,000,000 meters away from your position but the rays will always look the same from your position. What I mean is, you cannot use the rays as a method of working out the suns distance in photographs that have the suns origin point in, because we know the rays are coming from that point, it doesn't give us any information of how far away that point is because it'd look the same either way.

EDIT:

I hate to counter my own brethren here but I’ll play on this one
You don't need to worry about that, if you think I'm wrong by all means correct me, I'm not treating this forum as some kind of tribal war. :)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 05:37:46 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #146 on: March 04, 2020, 05:55:43 PM »
Ah understood, I was mistaken.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #147 on: March 04, 2020, 08:30:36 PM »
Those rays in that model are not parallel to each other. We are told that the rays which hit the earth are parallel.

Non-parallel rays hitting the surface of the earth is an argument for a sun which is small and close. Thank you for verifying that for us.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline stack

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #148 on: March 04, 2020, 08:43:41 PM »
Those rays in that model are not parallel to each other. We are told that the rays which hit the earth are parallel.

Non-parallel rays hitting the surface of the earth is an argument for a sun which is small and close. Thank you for verifying that for us.

So based on the FE explanation for 'god rays' being a close/small sun, would simply tracing back up the rays show us where the sun is? In other words, would the FE explanation put the sun here:

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline aga

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #149 on: March 04, 2020, 10:43:02 PM »
Here I am to discuss the flat earth.
...
Good luck.
'Flat', as en Engineer you will appreciate, does not imply 'Straight'.

Perhaps the 'Flat' you assume requires a body to have all particles aligned 0.0000 degrees apart in a particular plane, which does not occur in Nature.

Perhaps the Flat Earth is more Domed, like part of a shell of a sphere, rather than a complete Sphere.

I think that should satisfy your OP Challenge.

Personally i have absolutely no idea what is true.

Edit:

Governments Lie all the time. It is an Essential tool for Governance.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 10:49:10 PM by aga »
it all seems ok after many, many beers.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #150 on: March 04, 2020, 11:03:43 PM »
Those rays in that model are not parallel to each other. We are told that the rays which hit the earth are parallel.

Non-parallel rays hitting the surface of the earth is an argument for a sun which is small and close. Thank you for verifying that for us.
My god, Tom maybe think about what you're saying instead of parroting information without logic. The reason rays *look* parallel in some photos (like the birdseye photo above a cloud looking down showing the shadows going in one direction) is because the sun is huge and the surface emits rays across it's whole surface. Imagine my sphere in that gif, then imagine a pixel being the earth.

if I make my sphere extremely high poly (giving off more rays), each ray next to each other will look parallel. See the image below, zoomed right into the surface of the sphere after be subdivided several times. Notice the rays relative to their neighbour rays look almost like they're going in the same direction as each other?



just to help you visualize, here's the object a bit more zoomed out without the rays so you can see what you're looking at in the first image.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 11:05:59 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #151 on: March 04, 2020, 11:19:59 PM »
Some of the rays right next to each other look parallel-ish, and the ones further away are not parallel.

Yet, you are simultaneously arguing that the reason the rays are not parallel in the picture is because the Sun's rays are not parallel. That puts the Sun close to the Earth.

Under RE the rays which hit the Earth's surface are parallel:



If you are arguing that this:



is due to the non-parallel rays of the Sun, like in your 3D model, then you are arguing that the Sun is close to the Earth.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #152 on: March 04, 2020, 11:27:09 PM »
I've shown you visual representations Tom but you simply aren't understanding. rays will emit in all directions from the suns surface. if you're looking at the sun, the reason the rays spread out that way is because they're coming from the same point. it doesnt matter the distance, rays will look like that if you're looking at the sun as shown in my first gif. Now what you're mistaking this as a side on image of the earth and sun the rays look like they hit earth parallel, you're looking at this scale difference side by side;



now if I show you zoomed into the earth object you can see how the lines are near enough parallel for this example (if I made that sphere much higher poly my computer may say no, but the higher poly will show neighbouring lines even more parallel);

« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 11:29:12 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #153 on: March 04, 2020, 11:39:20 PM »
just again to help visualize I did subdivide the sun and moved it further away from the earth object to show the lines will still look parallel, here's a gif.



basically Tom, if you're looking at a tiny earth sized section of the rays they look parallel, if you're looking at the whole sun within your view (as seen in the first gif I posted) the rays come out at all directions regardless of the distance from your position. Do you understand? Basically, god rays are exactly how we expect to see them in the globe earth.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 11:42:10 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #154 on: March 04, 2020, 11:51:12 PM »
If you are looking at the Sun, you are in between the rays, and it is possible for a perspective effect to occur and see the rays angled broadly towards the Sun.

If you are looking at rays coming through clouds and hitting the Earth miles away from your position, you should see parallel rays, like the parallel rays which hit the Earth according to RE. The rays are parallel at the location of the Earth, and therefore the rays we see in the distance should be parallel.

Your error is that you are attempting to conflate the two. Like the example with the cylinders in space, a perspective effect will only occur when you are close to and in-between the rays, and not when you look at them in the distance. Looking at parallel rays in the distance will be parallel.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 11:52:59 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #155 on: March 04, 2020, 11:52:18 PM »
Tom, feel free to show a representation of what god rays would look like if you move the sun further away relative to your position, but I can guarantee (like I was showing in the first gif) the rays wont visually change, thus you cannot use such images to determine if it's close or far. Surely you can see with your own eyes? stand under a tree and see the god rays doing the same thing as they do behind clouds, it does not matter the distance, your vision will see the rays converging to a single point in the sky that is the sun. I don't think I can help you beyond what I've shown already, please stop and try to understand how this works.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 11:54:41 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #156 on: March 04, 2020, 11:54:32 PM »
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Tom, feel free to show a representation of what god rays would look like if you move the sun further away relative to your position

Already done. The rays did not stay at the same angle when moving away from them. They were only at a broad obtuse angle when very close, in-between the rays.

"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #157 on: March 05, 2020, 12:13:09 AM »
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Tom, feel free to show a representation of what god rays would look like if you move the sun further away relative to your position

Already done. The rays did not stay at the same angle when moving away from them. They were only at a broad obtuse angle when very close, in-between the rays.


try again with rays going out in all directions like in reality instead of two parallel lines. If you don't trust me and seemingly are willing to assume I'm wrong, maybe ask a trusted friend of yours to read through this and explain it to you so you'll understand.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #158 on: March 05, 2020, 12:28:34 AM »
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try again with rays going out in all directions like in reality instead of two parallel lines.

Why? You posted an image showing that parallel rays hit the Earth, at the Earth's location. All RE diagrams show the same. The rays which hit the Earth are parallel. The rays should be parallel when looking at them in the distance.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« Reply #159 on: March 05, 2020, 12:32:29 AM »
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try again with rays going out in all directions like in reality instead of two parallel lines.

Why? You posted an image showing that parallel rays hit the Earth, at the Earth's location. All RE diagrams show the same. The rays which hit the Earth are parallel. The rays should be parallel when looking at them in the distance.
Again, I can't help you understand if you don't want to try to understand. Ask a friend.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?