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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2014, 03:13:43 PM »
While it's true they damaged the testing apparatus, they pulled back the friction's intensity afterwards. It was in the FAQ.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2014, 03:30:15 PM »
Glass isn't a fluid.  Nor does it exhibit plasticity at temperatures seen on the road. 

Irrelevant.

If tire friction created such temperatures, said tire would melt long before the glass became soft enough to be smoothed.

At this point are you just throwing words at the wall hoping one will stick? Does this make sense in your head before and after you write it? I'm not trying to be rude I'm genuinely asking where these statements are coming from, because I certainly haven't claimed the glass would melt or become soft because that isn't necessary to smooth them.

I'm sure you've seen mountains before. Wind erosion? Did the wind melt the rocks, Dave? Friction can do some pretty terrible things over time. You understandably want to sweep the windshield analogy under the rug but for god sakes man don't do it two posts in a row.

While it's true they damaged the testing apparatus, they pulled back the friction's intensity afterwards. It was in the FAQ.

They seem to be more interested in high intensity, low interval rather than low intensity high interval, that is the problem I'm addressing.


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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2014, 03:39:36 PM »
It seems like they'd just need time to see how eroded the texture becomes. But they said they have a lifespan of 20 years, I believe, so it may not happen sooner than that in which case they would be replaced anyway.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2014, 03:46:24 PM »
It seems like they'd just need time to see how eroded the texture becomes. But they said they have a lifespan of 20 years, I believe, so it may not happen sooner than that in which case they would be replaced anyway.

I'll just wait and see I suppose. It's not like I have any real say in whether these damn things get put everywhere.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2014, 04:33:48 PM »
If the panels do last 20 years from normal wear-and-tear then they are on par or slightly better than asphalt roads which last 15-20 years.  The roads near me never last close to 15 years though.  I've been here for about 15 years and have seen some roads stripped and repaved at least 2 times.

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Offline jroa

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2014, 10:43:04 PM »
If the panels do last 20 years from normal wear-and-tear then they are on par or slightly better than asphalt roads which last 15-20 years.  The roads near me never last close to 15 years though.  I've been here for about 15 years and have seen some roads stripped and repaved at least 2 times.

Your anecdote does not prove or disprove anything about your point.  It could have been inadequate skill on the part of the pavers or even inferior materials that caused the road to need to be repaved.  Also, when repaving, typically, more material is added, not taken away. 

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2014, 10:56:21 PM »
Quote
Solar Roadways has received two phases of funding from the U.S. Federal Highway Administration for research and development of a paving system that will pay for itself over its lifespan.
...
The implementation of our concept on a grand scale could  create thousands of jobs in the U.S. and around the world. It could allow us all the ability to manufacture our way out of our current economic crisis.

Seems so to me. It seems like it's nothing but positives.

The cost must be astronomical.

And it sounds like its trying to fix too many problems.

But I think its cool.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2014, 12:29:22 AM »
If the panels do last 20 years from normal wear-and-tear then they are on par or slightly better than asphalt roads which last 15-20 years.  The roads near me never last close to 15 years though.  I've been here for about 15 years and have seen some roads stripped and repaved at least 2 times.

Your anecdote does not prove or disprove anything about your point.  It could have been inadequate skill on the part of the pavers or even inferior materials that caused the road to need to be repaved.  Also, when repaving, typically, more material is added, not taken away. 
I was simply presenting the anecdote, not trying to prove it disprove anything. 

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2014, 12:37:46 AM »
The cost must be astronomical.
Why? The budget would just switch from asphalt to solar panels. It might be a tad more expensive, but should pay for itself in maintenance and energy. Especially up north, businesses and schools would never have to close since there would never be any ice on the streets or parking lots.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2014, 01:11:40 PM »
Glass isn't a fluid.  Nor does it exhibit plasticity at temperatures seen on the road. 

Irrelevant.

If tire friction created such temperatures, said tire would melt long before the glass became soft enough to be smoothed.

At this point are you just throwing words at the wall hoping one will stick? Does this make sense in your head before and after you write it? I'm not trying to be rude I'm genuinely asking where these statements are coming from, because I certainly haven't claimed the glass would melt or become soft because that isn't necessary to smooth them.

I'm sure you've seen mountains before. Wind erosion? Did the wind melt the rocks, Dave? Friction can do some pretty terrible things over time. You understandably want to sweep the windshield analogy under the rug but for god sakes man don't do it two posts in a row.
I'm just trying to figure out how you think rubber will erode glass.
I thought you might have figures the constant friction of the tires would heat the glass enough to smooth it but clearly not.  Yet you still claim friction.  Make up your mind on what force causes the damage.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #70 on: May 26, 2014, 01:57:23 PM »
The cost must be astronomical.
Why?

Because you're paving roads with circuit boards not tarmac/asphalt.

This is kind of obvious.

but should pay for itself in maintenance and energy.

You mean a nation of road of interconnected circuitboards will require less maintenence than a road of hardened bitumen? If they're claiming this it requires massive scrutiny because complex systems require complex repairs. That requires complex tools and complex training for the guy holding hte tools. That means a higher salary for him.

The issue of under road heating is interesting. Because it turns an energy providing product into a road safety product. What if the heating panels fail? What if just one fails, leaving a patch of hard ice in an otherwise unblemished roadway? The supplier will have to guarantee that such a system will work 100% of the time for many years. I really hope they can deliver on that promise.

And if a load of panels do fail, will the local government be able to fall back on snow plows? I imagine a plow could do some real damage to all those ridged tiles.

I hate to be a Debby Downer but this just doesn't float for me. It's trying to fix way too many problems at once.

It might probably will work for parking lots and schools but not whole motorways.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2014, 02:49:31 PM »
I'm just trying to figure out how you think rubber will erode glass.
I thought you might have figures the constant friction of the tires would heat the glass enough to smooth it but clearly not.  Yet you still claim friction.  Make up your mind on what force causes the damage.

Friction causes the damage, friction is a force, if you didn't know, and temperature is irrelevant (as far as this discussion goes, it isn't in physics, but we're not talking about roads and tires at 0.1 kelvins).

Friction physically wears objects away, literally nothing else is needed. I'm not sure where your disconnect is on this.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #72 on: May 26, 2014, 04:30:00 PM »
Friction physically wears objects away, literally nothing else is needed.

Sounds like you need to calculate and compare the wear rate coefficients of glass and asphalt. Otherwise you're just making things up.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2014, 04:43:43 PM »
You mean a nation of road of interconnected circuitboards will require less maintenence than a road of hardened bitumen? If they're claiming this it requires massive scrutiny because complex systems require complex repairs. That requires complex tools and complex training for the guy holding hte tools. That means a higher salary for him.
You can just unplug one and replace it in a matter of minutes.

Quote
The issue of under road heating is interesting. Because it turns an energy providing product into a road safety product. What if the heating panels fail? What if just one fails, leaving a patch of hard ice in an otherwise unblemished roadway? The supplier will have to guarantee that such a system will work 100% of the time for many years. I really hope they can deliver on that promise.
You can just unplug one and replace it in a matter of minutes.

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I hate to be a Debby Downer but this just doesn't float for me. It's trying to fix way too many problems at once.
You're not a Debby Downer, you're just uninformed.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2014, 04:49:47 PM »
You mean a nation of road of interconnected circuitboards will require less maintenence than a road of hardened bitumen? If they're claiming this it requires massive scrutiny because complex systems require complex repairs. That requires complex tools and complex training for the guy holding hte tools. That means a higher salary for him.
You can just unplug one and replace it in a matter of minutes.

Assuming the problem was in the panel. That's a massive assumption.

You're not a Debby Downer, you're just uninformed.

I don't see how.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #75 on: May 26, 2014, 04:56:00 PM »
I'm just trying to figure out how you think rubber will erode glass.
I thought you might have figures the constant friction of the tires would heat the glass enough to smooth it but clearly not.  Yet you still claim friction.  Make up your mind on what force causes the damage.

Friction causes the damage, friction is a force, if you didn't know, and temperature is irrelevant (as far as this discussion goes, it isn't in physics, but we're not talking about roads and tires at 0.1 kelvins).

Friction physically wears objects away, literally nothing else is needed. I'm not sure where your disconnect is on this.
Yes, friction physically wears objects away.  But if you rub some styrofoam against a rock, what's going to be damaged, the rock or the styrofoam?

In this case it's a grinding force (your friction) but if one object is significantly harder than another, such grinding force isn't relevant for the road surface.  It might wear it away to dangerous levels in a hundred years but is that really a problem?


Also, because it's a glass pane on top of a solar panel, replacing it does not require replacing the whole panel.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #76 on: May 26, 2014, 04:58:07 PM »
Assuming the problem was in the panel. That's a massive assumption.

"Since our system is modular, repair will be much quicker and easier than our current maintenance system for asphalt roads.
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Each of the panels contain their own microprocessor, which communicates wireless with surrounding panels. If one of them should become damaged and stop communicating, then the rest of the panels can report the problem."

Damage to one would not necessarily be damage to all of them. If a section of road became damaged then they could spend more time replacing it, but it would still be quicker than with asphalt. Keep in mind it would also start small for testing.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #77 on: May 26, 2014, 05:02:56 PM »
Sounds like you need to calculate and compare the wear rate coefficients of glass and asphalt. Otherwise you're just making things up.

That's impossible to do as they haven't given any clue as to what kind of glass they used.

Yes, friction physically wears objects away.  But if you rub some styrofoam against a rock, what's going to be damaged, the rock or the styrofoam?

Both, actually. The Styrofoam will simply be damaged more.

In this case it's a grinding force (your friction) but if one object is significantly harder than another, such grinding force isn't relevant for the road surface.  It might wear it away to dangerous levels in a hundred years but is that really a problem?

Glass isn't very resistant to friction, as we've already discussed it is an amorphous solid.

Also, because it's a glass pane on top of a solar panel, replacing it does not require replacing the whole panel.

That's not the concern. The concern is if you put these on a busy road, over time cars can't brake as effectively as they could when the panels were optimal. That is a major safety issue.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #78 on: May 26, 2014, 06:50:02 PM »
Damage to one would not necessarily be damage to all of them. If a section of road became damaged then they could spend more time replacing it, but it would still be quicker than with asphalt. Keep in mind it would also start small for testing.

Assuming the interconnection of such modular systems is always error free. That's a big assumption.

Re: Solar Roadways
« Reply #79 on: May 26, 2014, 06:51:19 PM »
Sounds like you need to calculate and compare the wear rate coefficients of glass and asphalt. Otherwise you're just making things up.

That's impossible to do as they haven't given any clue as to what kind of glass they used.

Make an educated guess.