Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2019, 02:07:40 PM »
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People who cannot mentally accept the premise of FE

I cannot accept it because the only evidence I have seen is the childish "Well, it looks flat from the ground. "  As an engineer, I know that conclusions drawn solely from child like observations are frequently incorrect.  As an engineer, I know that round earth explanations for what we observe make far more sense than fantastical explanations required for flat earth theory.  And as a pilot, I cannot accept a flat earth because I have seen the round earth myself.  I have been at 45,000 feet.  At 45,000 feet one can see the curvature of the horizon.  At 45,000 feet at night, one can see cities hundreds of miles away.  Can you see cities hundreds of miles away from the ground?

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2019, 02:22:00 PM »
I think you need to take another look at the picture from Jason Nowicki.

OK, here are a few:



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Much more than just the tops are present...in fact, buildings (tops or otherwise) are visible when they should they not be at all visible.

Well, it's not just the very top and different photos show different amounts of the buildings, either taken from different locations or, more likely, different atmospheric conditions.
But here's the point. In none of those photos can you see the whole buildings. Why not? What is the rest occluded by if it isn't the curve of the earth?

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I am familiar with my own experiences and what I see.

If you have any evidence of your own to present then that's good, I'd be interested to see it.

EDIT: Just to add, the problem I have with your line of reasoning - and you see this a lot from FE people on YouTube - is the argument goes:
"Aha! You shouldn't be able to see any of <mountain/building/etc>, but LOOK! You can see it!"

And, sure enough, they produce a picture of it. And said picture is claimed to be proof that the globe model is bunk. The issue is always the same though. Let's say it's a 1000 foot building which, given the curve calculator, should be completely hidden by the curve of the earth. But you can see the top 200 feet of it. Well yes, there are sometimes atmospheric effects which allow you to see further than a simplified model suggests you should. But...why can you only see 200 feet? Where's the other 800? And why is it that you can only see the 200 feet sometimes. Why is it that sometimes the entire building is hidden, other times you can see 100 feet, sometimes you can see 200. To me this is evidence of atmospheric effects, not flatness. Were the earth flat you should be able to see the whole building. Or, at least, if we're going to allow for the same atmospheric effects you should be able to see it sometimes. Why can you never see all of it? What is the rest hidden behind if it's not the curve of the earth?

Not only that, but watch the video I linked above.  They showed one photo in which the buildings are inverted like a true mirage. 

Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2019, 02:40:36 PM »
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People who cannot mentally accept the premise of FE

I cannot accept it because the only evidence I have seen is the childish "Well, it looks flat from the ground. "  As an engineer, I know that conclusions drawn solely from child like observations are frequently incorrect.  As an engineer, I know that round earth explanations for what we observe make far more sense than fantastical explanations required for flat earth theory.  And as a pilot, I cannot accept a flat earth because I have seen the round earth myself.  I have been at 45,000 feet.  At 45,000 feet one can see the curvature of the horizon.  At 45,000 feet at night, one can see cities hundreds of miles away.  Can you see cities hundreds of miles away from the ground?
Air clarity is the reason you can see more as you rise above the surface of the earth.

At 45,000 feet, according to RE math, you would not be able to see any curvature.

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2019, 03:00:12 PM »
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Air clarity is the reason you can see more as you rise above the surface of the earth.

False.  I have seen Oklahoma City from 40,000 feet above Omaha.  That's about 400 miles.  40,000 feet is about 8 miles.  So a triangle with a height of 8 miles and a base of 400 miles will describe an angle of a little over 1 degree.  using a little trig, from my vantage point, the last 50 miles to OKC is through air that is 5,000 feet and below.  Denver is at 5,000 feet.  Standing on the ground at Denver looking east, one cannot see a light source 50 miles away.  Air clarity has very little to do with this.


Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2019, 03:04:31 PM »
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At 45,000 feet, according to RE math, you would not be able to see any curvature.

False.  As I said above, I could see a city 400 miles away.  That implies I can see an 800 mile horizon at 45,000 feet.  The circumference of the earth is about 24,000 miles.  Thus, 800 miles has 12 degrees of arc (800/24,000 X 360 = 12), which is easily discernible by the naked eye.

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Offline junker

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2019, 03:42:32 PM »
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At 45,000 feet, according to RE math, you would not be able to see any curvature.

False.  As I said above, I could see a city 400 miles away.  That implies I can see an 800 mile horizon at 45,000 feet.  The circumference of the earth is about 24,000 miles.  Thus, 800 miles has 12 degrees of arc (800/24,000 X 360 = 12), which is easily discernible by the naked eye.

It absolutely is not easily discernible unless you have a rather large field of view, according to RE maths. You would have to provide more information than just saying you were at 45,000 feet (like where you were and what you were looking out of) What is more likely, is that your bias let you perceive that you saw something that you did not. Or, you are just making things up. As an engineer, you should be more thoughtful about these things. So far, it seems you are just posting arbitrary math problems that you think support your position, when in fact you likely did not take any time to validate any of the maths or measurements.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 03:44:17 PM by junker »
Wait, is Thork gay or does he just have a thing for lipstick?

Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2019, 03:45:53 PM »
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At 45,000 feet, according to RE math, you would not be able to see any curvature.

False.  As I said above, I could see a city 400 miles away.  That implies I can see an 800 mile horizon at 45,000 feet.  The circumference of the earth is about 24,000 miles.  Thus, 800 miles has 12 degrees of arc (800/24,000 X 360 = 12), which is easily discernible by the naked eye.
You cannot perceive any curvature at 45,000 feet, period, end of sentence.

"Earth's surface disk visible from FL350 is about 1446 nautical miles. To claim you can see "the curvature of the earth" from low altitude, like a hundred thousand feet or so, is like putting your eye a couple of thousandths of an inch from a large beachball and believing that you can see its curvature."
https://www.quora.com/At-what-altitude-do-you-see-the-curvature-of-the-Earth

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2019, 04:44:54 PM »
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At 45,000 feet, according to RE math, you would not be able to see any curvature.

False.  As I said above, I could see a city 400 miles away.  That implies I can see an 800 mile horizon at 45,000 feet.  The circumference of the earth is about 24,000 miles.  Thus, 800 miles has 12 degrees of arc (800/24,000 X 360 = 12), which is easily discernible by the naked eye.
You cannot perceive any curvature at 45,000 feet, period, end of sentence.

"Earth's surface disk visible from FL350 is about 1446 nautical miles. To claim you can see "the curvature of the earth" from low altitude, like a hundred thousand feet or so, is like putting your eye a couple of thousandths of an inch from a large beachball and believing that you can see its curvature."
https://www.quora.com/At-what-altitude-do-you-see-the-curvature-of-the-Earth

Which means at FL 450 is should be even more, which means I underestimated by a factor of nearly 2.  Which means the amount of curvature visible is about 22.5 degrees.

From the link you so kindly provided:

"The threshold elevation for detecting curvature would seem to be somewhat less than 35,000 ft (10.6 km) but not as low as 14,000 ft (4.2 km). Photographically, curvature may be measurable as low as 20,000 ft (6 km)."
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 04:51:11 PM by Zonk »

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2019, 04:57:18 PM »
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At 45,000 feet, according to RE math, you would not be able to see any curvature.

False.  As I said above, I could see a city 400 miles away.  That implies I can see an 800 mile horizon at 45,000 feet.  The circumference of the earth is about 24,000 miles.  Thus, 800 miles has 12 degrees of arc (800/24,000 X 360 = 12), which is easily discernible by the naked eye.

It absolutely is not easily discernible unless you have a rather large field of view, according to RE maths. You would have to provide more information than just saying you were at 45,000 feet (like where you were and what you were looking out of) What is more likely, is that your bias let you perceive that you saw something that you did not. Or, you are just making things up. As an engineer, you should be more thoughtful about these things. So far, it seems you are just posting arbitrary math problems that you think support your position, when in fact you likely did not take any time to validate any of the maths or measurements.

First of all, why is "I saw such and such" a perfectly acceptable piece of information from your side, while "I saw such and such" is not from the other?  Rather convenient, wouldn't you say.  Secondly, I did provide detail.  I have seen the lights of Oklahoma City from Omaha while flying in a USAF T-38 at night.  That is just one example of many.  Check the distance between those 2 cities.  If one can see that far straight ahead, it stands to reason that one can see twice that distance from left to right.

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Offline junker

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2019, 05:08:06 PM »
First of all, why is "I saw such and such" a perfectly acceptable piece of information from your side, while "I saw such and such" is not from the other?  Rather convenient, wouldn't you say. 
Please keep your strawmen arguments out of the upper fora, as all it does is derail the topic and makes it look like you are avoiding the discussion. If you can't can't answer, just say so. Trying to deflect by arguing against a claim no one is making gets us nowhere.


Secondly, I did provide detail.  I have seen the lights of Oklahoma City from Omaha while flying in a USAF T-38 at night.  That is just one example of many.  Check the distance between those 2 cities.  If one can see that far straight ahead, it stands to reason that one can see twice that distance from left to right.
How is that remotely relevant to personally seeing the curvature of earth's horizon at 45K feet. That is what I am asking about, not what cities you claim to have seen while flying. I am also very interested in understanding how you saw curvature on the horizon while flying at night.
Wait, is Thork gay or does he just have a thing for lipstick?

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2019, 05:14:30 PM »
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How is that remotely relevant to personally seeing the curvature of earth's horizon at 45K feet. That is what I am asking about, not what cities you claim to have seen while flying. I am also very interested in understanding how you saw curvature on the horizon while flying at night.

I provided that information as a baseline for how far on can see at that altitude.  If the horizon is that far away at night, that means it is that far away during the day. 

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2019, 05:19:29 PM »
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Please keep your strawmen arguments out of the upper fora, as all it does is derail the topic and makes it look like you are avoiding the discussion. If you can't can't answer, just say so. Trying to deflect by arguing against a claim no one is making gets us nowhere.

Right here in this thread:

" I have witnessed Chicago from Michigan City, IN, at a distance of over 30 miles. I have witnessed the shoreline and steel mills of Gary, IN, from Michigan City, IN, a distance of over 20 miles."

Seems to be a perfectly accepted argument.  But an "I have seen X which shows or implies curvature" is summarily dismissed.

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Offline junker

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2019, 05:23:32 PM »
I provided that information as a baseline for how far on can see at that altitude.  If the horizon is that far away at night, that means it is that far away during the day.
So you didn't actually see curvature on the horizon, got it. Thanks for clearing that up.



Right here in this thread:

" I have witnessed Chicago from Michigan City, IN, at a distance of over 30 miles. I have witnessed the shoreline and steel mills of Gary, IN, from Michigan City, IN, a distance of over 20 miles."

Seems to be a perfectly accepted argument.  But an "I have seen X which shows or implies curvature" is summarily dismissed.
I would suggest you address issues you have with things people say with the people who said those things, instead of deflecting to strawmen when your made up stories fall apart.
Wait, is Thork gay or does he just have a thing for lipstick?

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2019, 05:36:19 PM »
I provided that information as a baseline for how far on can see at that altitude.  If the horizon is that far away at night, that means it is that far away during the day.
So you didn't actually see curvature on the horizon, got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

I would suggest you address issues you have with things people say with the people who said those things, instead of deflecting to strawmen when your made up stories fall apart.


Why the insult?  You are free to not believe me, but you are not free to insult me and call me a liar.   The link provided by totallackey  clearly states that one can discern curvature at 35,000 feet.  Do you doubt I flew military jets at 35,000 and above?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 05:40:48 PM by Zonk »

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Offline junker

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2019, 05:56:12 PM »
The link provided by totallackey  clearly states that one can discern curvature at 35,000 feet.
Try reading the actual source which was even listed in the article. It has been gone over on this forum repeatedly:
http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf

So, again, what field of view did you personally have when you observed the earth's curvature on the horizon (at night...), and at what altitude?


Do you doubt I flew military jets at 35,000 and above?
I have no way of knowing if you did or not.
Wait, is Thork gay or does he just have a thing for lipstick?

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2019, 06:04:22 PM »
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So, again, what field of view did you personally have when you observed the earth's curvature on the horizon (at night...), and at what altitude?

Not at night.  Again, the night example was to provide two pieces of information, only one of which is relevant here.  It was to establish how far the line of sight was at a particular altitude,  in this case, about 400 miles (about 350 NM).  As to the question, about 300 degrees, give or take, and altitudes up to 45,000 feet.  Here is what a T-38 looks like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_T-38_Talon

From the front cockpit, the only blind spot is directly behind, about  60 degrees or so.  One can see the horizon from about 7 O'clock around to 5 O'clock.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 06:06:20 PM by Zonk »

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2019, 06:05:34 PM »
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I have no way of knowing if you did or not.

And yet your default response was that I am lying and making it all up.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2019, 06:21:02 PM »
At 45,000 feet one can see the curvature of the horizon.   

Looking curved and being curved are two totally different things.


If I was going to form beliefs based entirely on my visual cortex's limited ability to interpret clouds of electrons then, when looking in this mirror I would honestly believe  my legs were suddenly grossly deformed and rush to the hospital


Just because the girl's legs look long and deformed does not make them long and deformed.


At 45,000 feet at night, one can see cities hundreds of miles away. Can you see cities hundreds of miles away from the ground?

NO. The FE explanation that is most plausible is that at sea level the atmosphere is much more dense than at 45,000 feet above sea level.

In the thinner, much less dense high altitude atmosphere, light is less hindered by refraction and other chaotic atmospheric conditions and can travel further. 


This is why when you go just a few hundred yards below the water you can no longer see any sunlight. Light can't travel as far in water. If I was going to make my mind up based entirely on what I see I would say the sun stops existing once you go deep enough in the water then comes back when you surface.





False.  I have seen Oklahoma City from 40,000 feet above Omaha.  That's about 400 miles.  40,000 feet is about 8 miles.  So a triangle with a height of 8 miles and a base of 400 miles will describe an angle of a little over 1 degree.  using a little trig, from my vantage point, the last 50 miles to OKC is through air that is 5,000 feet and below.  Denver is at 5,000 feet.  Standing on the ground at Denver looking east, one cannot see a light source 50 miles away.  Air clarity has very little to do with this.

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim that atmospheric conditions have very little to do with that?

What if it's foggy? What if it's misting? What if the pollen count is much higher than normal? Based on my own personal observations things like that have a very significant impact on what you can, and can't see. I'm not even considering things like atmospheric pressure, humidity, temperature, wind speed etc.

Let me present you with some evidence:




1:32 PM at 64.7 degrees the opposite shore is visible.
1:41 PM at 64.9 degrees the opposite shore has set behind the horizon again.

Same day, same time, same place, same cloud cover, same weather, same wind, almost the exact same temperature and an entire town goes from being visible to not being visible.

Based on the logic of things being visible meaning the earth is round and forming an opinion based entirely on your brain's ability to form an image out of a cloud of electrons: do you believe, based on the evidence above that the earth alternates between being round and flat?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 06:33:06 PM by iamcpc »

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2019, 06:29:24 PM »
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At 45,000 feet at night, one can see cities hundreds of miles away. Can you see cities hundreds of miles away from the ground?

NO. The FE explanation that is most plausible is that at sea level the atmosphere is much more dense than at 45,000 feet above sea level.

In the thinner, much less dense high altitude atmosphere, light is less hindered by refraction and other chaotic atmospheric conditions and can travel further. 

I addressed that in the same post.  Because of the extremely shallow angle, 50 of those 400 miles the light was traveling were at 5,000 feet or below.  If I were to ask you how come you cannot see a light source 50 miles east of Denver from the ground, the answer would surely be "because of the atmosphere.", yet one can clearly see a light source from hundreds of miles away if one is high enough, despite that light traveling for the first 50 miles at 5,000 feet and below.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2019, 06:39:35 PM »
I addressed that in the same post.  Because of the extremely shallow angle, 50 of those 400 miles the light was traveling were at 5,000 feet or below.  If I were to ask you how come you cannot see a light source 50 miles east of Denver from the ground, the answer would surely be "because of the atmosphere.", yet one can clearly see a light source from hundreds of miles away if one is high enough, despite that light traveling for the first 50 miles at 5,000 feet and below.

They are still different. In one situation the light is reflecting off of it's distant object and spending it's entire time traveling beginning to end in the thick dense low altitude air.

In the other situation the light is originating in the dense low altitude atmosphere and going through different layers of atmosphere and refracting much differently thus leading to a different observation.


You can't compare apples to oranges.

In addition, as demonstrated in my previous post, it's dangerous to make up your mind so solidly based on what you see alone when your eyes can be easily fooled
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 07:06:21 PM by iamcpc »