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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2019, 03:58:56 AM »

I know what you are trying to say here, but it still doesn't work without distortion. Take Wyoming for example. In Bing maps, Wyoming is depicted as a perfect rectangle (90 degree angles), no matter what zoom level you're at. But in reality, (looking straight down at it) Wyoming is actually trapezoidal, with an ever-so-slightly curved top and bottom. The northern border is 342 miles wide, while the southern border is 365 miles wide.



Google maps which represents the earth as a perfect sphere also shows Wyoming with 90 degree angles. Do you have any map or globe that shows wyoming as you describe

Looks trapezoidal to me.  There may be approximately 90 degree angles on the corners, but the north and south aren't straight lines.  They bow outwards and inwards, respectively.  That makes it possible to have a trapezoidal shape and have right angles.
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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2019, 06:21:32 PM »

I know what you are trying to say here, but it still doesn't work without distortion. Take Wyoming for example. In Bing maps, Wyoming is depicted as a perfect rectangle (90 degree angles), no matter what zoom level you're at. But in reality, (looking straight down at it) Wyoming is actually trapezoidal, with an ever-so-slightly curved top and bottom. The northern border is 342 miles wide, while the southern border is 365 miles wide.



Google maps which represents the earth as a perfect sphere also shows Wyoming with 90 degree angles. Do you have any map or globe that shows wyoming as you describe

Looks trapezoidal to me.  There may be approximately 90 degree angles on the corners, but the north and south aren't straight lines.  They bow outwards and inwards, respectively.  That makes it possible to have a trapezoidal shape and have right angles.


Your claim was that the Wyoming border does not have 90 degree angles. Google maps which represents the earth as a perfect sphere also shows Wyoming with 90 degree angles. Do you have any map or globe that shows Wyoming as you describe?

I have to ask again because when i asked the first time you didn't reply with a map or glove which shows Wyoming without 90 degree angles.  You replied with your opinion about the angles.


Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2019, 06:33:14 PM »

I know what you are trying to say here, but it still doesn't work without distortion. Take Wyoming for example. In Bing maps, Wyoming is depicted as a perfect rectangle (90 degree angles), no matter what zoom level you're at. But in reality, (looking straight down at it) Wyoming is actually trapezoidal, with an ever-so-slightly curved top and bottom. The northern border is 342 miles wide, while the southern border is 365 miles wide.



Google maps which represents the earth as a perfect sphere also shows Wyoming with 90 degree angles. Do you have any map or globe that shows wyoming as you describe

Looks trapezoidal to me.  There may be approximately 90 degree angles on the corners, but the north and south aren't straight lines.  They bow outwards and inwards, respectively.  That makes it possible to have a trapezoidal shape and have right angles.


Your claim was that the Wyoming border does not have 90 degree angles. Google maps which represents the earth as a perfect sphere also shows Wyoming with 90 degree angles. Do you have any map or globe that shows Wyoming as you describe?

I have to ask again because when i asked the first time you didn't reply with a map or glove which shows Wyoming without 90 degree angles.  You replied with your opinion about the angles.

I think it depends on the browser you use to view Google Maps. I noticed when using the Google Maps app on my iPhone, it is using a Mercator projection. I'm not sure what Android Google Maps uses. But when viewing it in a Chrome browser on a PC, it is on a sphere. So I don't know which projection will be shown in Google Maps in all situations, as I can only test a few.

However, Google EARTH should always use the spherical projection, so that would probably be the best one to use to compare.

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2019, 07:44:51 PM »

I know what you are trying to say here, but it still doesn't work without distortion. Take Wyoming for example. In Bing maps, Wyoming is depicted as a perfect rectangle (90 degree angles), no matter what zoom level you're at. But in reality, (looking straight down at it) Wyoming is actually trapezoidal, with an ever-so-slightly curved top and bottom. The northern border is 342 miles wide, while the southern border is 365 miles wide.



Google maps which represents the earth as a perfect sphere also shows Wyoming with 90 degree angles. Do you have any map or globe that shows wyoming as you describe

Looks trapezoidal to me.  There may be approximately 90 degree angles on the corners, but the north and south aren't straight lines.  They bow outwards and inwards, respectively.  That makes it possible to have a trapezoidal shape and have right angles.


Your claim was that the Wyoming border does not have 90 degree angles. Google maps which represents the earth as a perfect sphere also shows Wyoming with 90 degree angles. Do you have any map or globe that shows Wyoming as you describe?

I have to ask again because when i asked the first time you didn't reply with a map or glove which shows Wyoming without 90 degree angles.  You replied with your opinion about the angles.

I don't believe any claim was made that it does not have 90 degree angles.  The claim that Uetzicle made is that it's trapezoidal.  And, not because of the angles, but in this case because of the curves at the north and south.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2019, 06:28:28 PM »
Hey guys,

first off: Thanks for replying, I'm happy I encouraged a discussion  :)

iamcpc, I totally get what confuses you and I think the Approach used to tell you why the bing Map you provided is distorted was not clear enough for you to see it, so let me try

In my original post (and that what it's all About) I talked About a 2d map, and a 2d map is a map you could print out. So what I Need is a map of the earth on a piece of paper where the lenghts and the angles are Right (in that case it would be undistorted and my Point would be satisfied). So if we do that with the bing map we would have to take the fully zoomed out view, print it out and THEN look if the two Points are true. That's not the case, I could Show you that quite easily if you want me too or you can take my word for it...
If you would however ask me to do that I could Show you what's wrong with the other map you have shown us on one example.
I just got one Question: Where can I get the true lenghts of the countrys? Is the measurement on the bing map correct in your opinion? If yes I can show you the Problem if not please tell me where I can get the Right measurements from.
Thanks!


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Offline stack

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2019, 07:17:00 AM »

I know what you are trying to say here, but it still doesn't work without distortion. Take Wyoming for example. In Bing maps, Wyoming is depicted as a perfect rectangle (90 degree angles), no matter what zoom level you're at. But in reality, (looking straight down at it) Wyoming is actually trapezoidal, with an ever-so-slightly curved top and bottom. The northern border is 342 miles wide, while the southern border is 365 miles wide.



Google maps which represents the earth as a perfect sphere also shows Wyoming with 90 degree angles. Do you have any map or globe that shows wyoming as you describe

Looks trapezoidal to me.  There may be approximately 90 degree angles on the corners, but the north and south aren't straight lines.  They bow outwards and inwards, respectively.  That makes it possible to have a trapezoidal shape and have right angles.


Your claim was that the Wyoming border does not have 90 degree angles. Google maps which represents the earth as a perfect sphere also shows Wyoming with 90 degree angles. Do you have any map or globe that shows Wyoming as you describe?

I have to ask again because when i asked the first time you didn't reply with a map or glove which shows Wyoming without 90 degree angles.  You replied with your opinion about the angles.

90 degrees is sort of a misnomer. Because, again, we're talking about 3D Globe projections onto a 2D plane. The eastern and western borders of Wyoming were plotted to parallel along longitudinal lines, as mentioned previously, the northern border is shorter than the southern border by about 20 miles. Here is what Wyoming looks like on Google maps:



Spherical Geometry and the notion of 90 degrees is an interesting subject, but perhaps not for this thread.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2019, 10:39:45 PM »
Do you understand that when you zoom in on Bing maps, you're looking at a different map? It's not a zoomed-in version of the same image, it's a different image.

Much like when I look at a united states road atlas the scale changes based on what state you look at. If you put all of the states together and gave them an interactive scale would that make them distorted? I guess some people could say yes. It's my option that, as long as the scale accurately shows all of the individual states and USA as a whole correct then it's not distorted.
My points are:
- You cannot draw a single flat map that is correct AND covers the entire earth
- As soon as you have some kind of 'interactive scale', you're not drawing a single map anymore. When you zoom in on Bing maps, it draws a different map. If a country is the wrong size when you're zoomed out but becomes the correct size when you zoom in, the zoomed in and zoomed out maps are not the same map.

So I think we agree basically. You can't draw a flat map of the whole world, but you can draw a flat map of e.x. a single state. Where we differ is on my first point. As soon as you can't draw a flat map that covers the entire earth, that's game over.
**I move away from the infinite flat plane to breathe in

Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2019, 10:42:46 AM »
Do you understand that when you zoom in on Bing maps, you're looking at a different map? It's not a zoomed-in version of the same image, it's a different image.

Much like when I look at a united states road atlas the scale changes based on what state you look at. If you put all of the states together and gave them an interactive scale would that make them distorted? I guess some people could say yes. It's my option that, as long as the scale accurately shows all of the individual states and USA as a whole correct then it's not distorted.
My points are:
- You cannot draw a single flat map that is correct AND covers the entire earth
- As soon as you have some kind of 'interactive scale', you're not drawing a single map anymore. When you zoom in on Bing maps, it draws a different map. If a country is the wrong size when you're zoomed out but becomes the correct size when you zoom in, the zoomed in and zoomed out maps are not the same map.

So I think we agree basically. You can't draw a flat map of the whole world, but you can draw a flat map of e.x. a single state. Where we differ is on my first point. As soon as you can't draw a flat map that covers the entire earth, that's game over.
If it is game over, then why are all maps flat?

It is the undulations and rises of terrain causing distortion.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2019, 11:01:06 AM »
Do you understand that when you zoom in on Bing maps, you're looking at a different map? It's not a zoomed-in version of the same image, it's a different image.

Much like when I look at a united states road atlas the scale changes based on what state you look at. If you put all of the states together and gave them an interactive scale would that make them distorted? I guess some people could say yes. It's my option that, as long as the scale accurately shows all of the individual states and USA as a whole correct then it's not distorted.
My points are:
- You cannot draw a single flat map that is correct AND covers the entire earth
- As soon as you have some kind of 'interactive scale', you're not drawing a single map anymore. When you zoom in on Bing maps, it draws a different map. If a country is the wrong size when you're zoomed out but becomes the correct size when you zoom in, the zoomed in and zoomed out maps are not the same map.

So I think we agree basically. You can't draw a flat map of the whole world, but you can draw a flat map of e.x. a single state. Where we differ is on my first point. As soon as you can't draw a flat map that covers the entire earth, that's game over.
If it is game over, then why are all maps flat?

It is the undulations and rises of terrain causing distortion.
Why are all photos of you flat?
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2019, 09:39:03 PM »
If it is game over, then why are all maps flat?

It is the undulations and rises of terrain causing distortion.
Maps are flat because carrying a globe around in your pocket isn't comfortable, and because paper and screens are flat. What matters when drawing a map is that it's usable to navigate, not that it's an undistorted representation of the earth.
**I move away from the infinite flat plane to breathe in

Offline Zonk

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2019, 02:41:28 PM »
Quote
I don't believe any claim was made that it does not have 90 degree angles.  The claim that Uetzicle made is that it's trapezoidal.  And, not because of the angles, but in this case because of the curves at the north and south.

Wyoming doesn't have 90 degree angles.  The borders of Wyoming are defined by specific lines of latitude and longitude.  Lines of latitude are parallel.  Lines of longitude all converge at the poles.  Thus, Wyoming's northern border is slightly shorter than its southern border, and the NE and NW corners are slightly greater than 90 degrees, while the SE and SW ones are slightly smaller.   The southern border is 23 miles longer than the Northern one.  With some basic trigonometry, one can derive the angles, which are approximately 92.4 degrees in the north, and 87.6 in the south.

edited for for more detail.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 02:50:26 PM by Zonk »

Offline Dumbo

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2019, 05:05:14 PM »
Leanardo DaVinci lived and studied in the Renaissance ( following the dark ages ) . Many of his beliefs and studies including anatomical drawings ( which were from (“life”) would have been considered heracy so he wrote in his journals in such a fashion that they could only be read in the reflection of a mirror . He would have been executed for his findings as being contrary to the Church doctrine .
     Flat Earthers are today’s heretics , but no longer is that punishable by death. Where exactly does one go to obtain a grant to accurately map the flat earth ? Sign me up . This would be interesting work , indeed .

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2019, 05:31:44 PM »
Leanardo DaVinci lived and studied in the Renaissance ( following the dark ages ) . Many of his beliefs and studies including anatomical drawings ( which were from (“life”) would have been considered heracy so he wrote in his journals in such a fashion that they could only be read in the reflection of a mirror . He would have been executed for his findings as being contrary to the Church doctrine .
     Flat Earthers are today’s heretics , but no longer is that punishable by death. Where exactly does one go to obtain a grant to accurately map the flat earth ? Sign me up . This would be interesting work , indeed .

First you have to come up with a FE approved mapping system. Tom had provided evidence that mapping coordinate systems based on longitude and latitude are inaccurate.

Also what about Bing maps did you reject?

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Offline stack

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2019, 06:49:04 PM »
Leanardo DaVinci lived and studied in the Renaissance ( following the dark ages ) . Many of his beliefs and studies including anatomical drawings ( which were from (“life”) would have been considered heracy so he wrote in his journals in such a fashion that they could only be read in the reflection of a mirror . He would have been executed for his findings as being contrary to the Church doctrine .
     Flat Earthers are today’s heretics , but no longer is that punishable by death. Where exactly does one go to obtain a grant to accurately map the flat earth ? Sign me up . This would be interesting work , indeed .

First you have to come up with a FE approved mapping system. Tom had provided evidence that mapping coordinate systems based on longitude and latitude are inaccurate.

Also what about Bing maps did you reject?

As far as coming up with an FE approved mapping system, who would do the approving? And Tom didn't provide evidence that longitude and latitude are inaccurate, he presented information about how US State Plane maps use a simple X/Y coordinate system because it's easier and works well for short distances, which these types of maps are designed for.

Bing maps are based upon longitude and latitude and the Mercator projection which are globe coordinates and a globe representation. So if you started with a Bing map, you'd be starting with a globe earth. I think you want to start with a flat earth. That seems to be the whole point.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.