Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2019, 09:33:11 PM »
So in short, your posts are not relevant to the OP's question then?
Your maps do NOT show how a flat Earth could work. If you'd like to assert otherwise, I'd like to hear how.

Again this is just a difference of opinion. In my opinion I have given a map, which depicts the earth as a flat plane, in which the map, by my definition, is undistorted.  Again we get back to semantics of what the definition of "distorted" means when referring to a map and how different people can have different criteria for what is, or is not, distorted.

If you show Bing maps to anyone in the world and ask them what this is the map of I'm willing to bet that 99% of the population who graduated the 6th grade could tell you that it's a map of the earth.
Bing maps also resembles maps which are on almost the wall of virtually every school that I've seen in America.



It meets all of the criteria listed below:

1. The map has countries the correct size (based on the interactive scale of the map).
2. The map shows countries the correct distance away from each other (based on the interactive scale of the map).
3. The map has Countries the correct direction relative to each other
4. The map is usable to accurately navigate every country on earth


Some got correct angles and others correct lengths but they can't have both at the same time.

5. The map has correct angles.
6. The map has correct lengths (based on the interactive scale of the map).


So in short, your posts are not relevant to the OP's question then?

It's my opinion that, based on the information presented above, my post are relevant to the OP's question.
If you disagree you are certainly entitled to your opinion on that matter.

The problem is that people started rejecting the map because it has an interactive scale. Thus I had to present another a non interactive map with a more universal scale.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 09:42:42 PM by iamcpc »

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2019, 09:59:26 PM »
Just to clarify, when you say "interactive scale" do you just mean the zooming in and out feature?
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2019, 10:25:10 PM »
Just to clarify, when you say "interactive scale" do you just mean the zooming in and out feature?


I don't know if you know a lot about programming but there are these things called event handlers. For example the edge of this window has a mouse over event handler which changes the cursor to a little arrow. This text box that i'm typing this response in has a mouse over event handler which changes the cursor again. This window has a keypress event handler which makes the letter "e" appear in this text box when I type the letter.




For example:

           on bing maps I can click the middle mouse and nothing happens. When I click the middle mouse several things happen. The mouse goes down (mousedown event). There is a click (onclick event). Then the mouse button goes up (mouseup event).
             There is no code handling the middle mouse click event.
             There is no code handling the middle mouse mousedown event (provided that the mouse didn't move).
            There is no code handling the middle mouse mouseup event (provided that the mouse didn't move).


           on bing maps I can double click the middle mouse and nothing happens. When I double click the middle mouse several things happen again. this appears not to change the scale of the map

           on bing maps I can press and hold the middle mouse. Then while the middle mouse is held move it. Then after moving the mouse let go of the middle mouse button which changes the scale of the map
               
middle mouse on mouse down event = Take a picture of the starting position of the mouse

 middle mouse on mouse up event = take a picture of the ending position of the mouse
if starting position of the mouse <> ending position of the mouse then
change map scale
end if


In addition to things like dragging and dropping the middle mouse which appear to have an effect on the scale of the map there are keyboard buttons like the arrows which appear to, in certain situations, change the scale of the map. There are many different combinations of events and inputs you can send to the map which either always change the scale or sometimes change the scale.


When I say interactive scale  i'm talking about any combinations of clicks, button presses, or other events which will change the scale of the map without doing things like injecting code or scripts or altering memory if the computer or browser in which those inputs, clicks, or events change the scale of the map. I didn't build the interactive map so i'm unable to tell you all the events and inputs which can change the scale of the map. I highly doubt Bing would tell you either.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 10:38:11 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2019, 12:13:43 AM »
Again this is just a difference of opinion. In my opinion I have given a map, which depicts the earth as a flat plane, in which the map, by my definition, is undistorted. 
You required that it gets sizes correct, and yet both maps you show clearly don't get sizes correct.

The fact that you can zoom in on Greenland and it shows it as being the correct size is entirely irrelevant: if I'm zoomed in on Greenland, you can't compare the sizes of all the countries anymore because you're no longer looking at a map of the Earth, you're just looking at a map of Greenland. If you zoomed in on every country and grabbed the map that it gave you, every country would be the same size. Great! Except then if you tried to stitch all of those maps that get the relative country sizes correct together, you'd end up with a map that gets other things wrong.

I think my main points are really this:
- zooming in on Bing maps is the same as looking at a different map. The "zoomed in" map and the "zoomed out" map are not the same map. This should be obvious enough, as Greenland is horribly stretched when zoomed out and not when zoomed in.
- The only important question is "can I draw a single map that accurately represents the entire globe on a flat surface". No zooming, just a flat plane with the countries drawn on. This isn't the programming problem that you're making it out to be: it's a question of geometry.
**I move away from the infinite flat plane to breathe in

Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2019, 04:28:10 AM »
So in short, your posts are not relevant to the OP's question then?
Your maps do NOT show how a flat Earth could work. If you'd like to assert otherwise, I'd like to hear how.

Again this is just a difference of opinion. In my opinion I have given a map, which depicts the earth as a flat plane, in which the map, by my definition, is undistorted.  Again we get back to semantics of what the definition of "distorted" means when referring to a map and how different people can have different criteria for what is, or is not, distorted.

If you show Bing maps to anyone in the world and ask them what this is the map of I'm willing to bet that 99% of the population who graduated the 6th grade could tell you that it's a map of the earth.
Bing maps also resembles maps which are on almost the wall of virtually every school that I've seen in America.



It meets all of the criteria listed below:

1. The map has countries the correct size (based on the interactive scale of the map).
2. The map shows countries the correct distance away from each other (based on the interactive scale of the map).
3. The map has Countries the correct direction relative to each other
4. The map is usable to accurately navigate every country on earth


Some got correct angles and others correct lengths but they can't have both at the same time.

5. The map has correct angles.
6. The map has correct lengths (based on the interactive scale of the map).


So in short, your posts are not relevant to the OP's question then?

It's my opinion that, based on the information presented above, my post are relevant to the OP's question.
If you disagree you are certainly entitled to your opinion on that matter.

The problem is that people started rejecting the map because it has an interactive scale. Thus I had to present another a non interactive map with a more universal scale.

If you want me to believe that you are honest, then answer these questions with a simple yes or no.

These 2 questions will not completely answer the issue of relevant distortion, but it is my claim that your maps cannot do this, but any acceptable map must meet this criteria. The AE map can, and even the dual-polar map can sort of.

1) Do you believe that on our actual Earth, one can start at any point, travel due East, and eventually return to their starting point? (With the exception of the poles.)
2) Is it possible to trace the line of such a circular East-bound travel on either of these maps with an unbroken line?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2019, 06:18:46 AM »

If you want me to believe that you are honest, then answer these questions with a simple yes or no.

I don't understand what the number of words I use in my response has to do with my level of honesty but i'll answer with one word just to appease you.



1) Do you believe that on our actual Earth, one can start at any point, travel due East, and eventually return to their starting point? (With the exception of the poles.)

Yes.

2) Is it possible to trace the line of such a circular East-bound travel on either of these maps with an unbroken line?
Yes.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 06:21:54 AM by iamcpc »

Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2019, 03:03:44 PM »
2) Is it possible to trace the line of such a circular East-bound travel on either of these maps with an unbroken line?
Yes.
In that case, please show us this unbroken line on your Bing map. Please take a screenshot of your Bing map and draw over it a hypothetical trip from New York to London to Tokyo to LA and then back to New York. The trip should go Eastward and must not be broken. And just to save us an iteration of this nonsense, please don't try to use the excuse that you can dynamically scroll the map to make the trip by a series of unbroken lines. I asked for a single unbroken line.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2019, 12:44:46 AM »
2) Is it possible to trace the line of such a circular East-bound travel on either of these maps with an unbroken line?
Yes.
In that case, please show us this unbroken line on your Bing map. Please take a screenshot of your Bing map and draw over it a hypothetical trip from New York to London to Tokyo to LA and then back to New York. The trip should go Eastward and must not be broken. And just to save us an iteration of this nonsense, please don't try to use the excuse that you can dynamically scroll the map to make the trip by a series of unbroken lines. I asked for a single unbroken line.

I have already done this here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14046.msg187564#msg187564

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2019, 01:09:47 AM »
2) Is it possible to trace the line of such a circular East-bound travel on either of these maps with an unbroken line?
Yes.
In that case, please show us this unbroken line on your Bing map. Please take a screenshot of your Bing map and draw over it a hypothetical trip from New York to London to Tokyo to LA and then back to New York. The trip should go Eastward and must not be broken. And just to save us an iteration of this nonsense, please don't try to use the excuse that you can dynamically scroll the map to make the trip by a series of unbroken lines. I asked for a single unbroken line.

I have already done this here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14046.msg187564#msg187564

You used an omnidirectional treadmill as an example.  I find that kind of funny considering that a really large sphere can make a great omnidirectional treadmill.  If you're thinking of those flat kinds, well, that would mean that the Earth would have to fold around the edge at some point and arrive at the other side.  And, how would that work for vehicles traveling in opposite directions?  An illustration of that "treadmill" would help.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

Quote from: totallackey
Do you have any evidence of reality?

Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2019, 03:26:00 AM »
2) Is it possible to trace the line of such a circular East-bound travel on either of these maps with an unbroken line?
Yes.
In that case, please show us this unbroken line on your Bing map. Please take a screenshot of your Bing map and draw over it a hypothetical trip from New York to London to Tokyo to LA and then back to New York. The trip should go Eastward and must not be broken. And just to save us an iteration of this nonsense, please don't try to use the excuse that you can dynamically scroll the map to make the trip by a series of unbroken lines. I asked for a single unbroken line.

I have already done this here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14046.msg187564#msg187564
Thanks. I think that makes it all extremely clear. You are trolling. I believe trolling is completely within the rules here on TFES, so go for it.
Ultimately, that's the answer I'm really looking for, so I appreciate your participation.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2019, 08:21:55 PM »
Thanks. I think that makes it all extremely clear. You are trolling. I believe trolling is completely within the rules here on TFES, so go for it.
Ultimately, that's the answer I'm really looking for, so I appreciate your participation.

You demand one word responses, reject a map of the earth which is widely used and accepted by millions and millions and millions of people, question my beliefs/sincerity (when I've been on here for several months giving positive and negative feedback about many of the different flat earth models as well as researching and understanding the logical answers that many of the FE models come up with to answer various questions), demand some allegiance into some binary flat earth schism you made up, then resort to name calling when I provide you an example of exactly what you ask for.

It really is sad when you have to stoop to calling someone names. Should I stoop to that level and call you a stinky head? Which one of us is really trolling? Keep in mind I've done none of the things listed above. Why even bother coming here?

Furthermore it's very common among the people who are further to the FE side of the bell curve than I am to have a belief that there is no map of the earth. Are you going to call them trolls too? I don't think they are trolls I just think they have a different set of beliefs and have done more or different research than I have.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 08:56:07 PM by iamcpc »

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2019, 08:44:30 PM »
I think a lot of people find it hard to comprehend that someone could believe the world is like a packman level which is probably why he thinks you're trolling. That and you refer to the projection of the globe as a accurate map of the world without any distortion which it isn't. The Bing map is distorted, it is a distorted map in the same way every flat map of the world would be if it were projected from the globe. It is accurate in that you can navigate using it, but not accurate as a visual representation on a larger scale. the distortion comes from the the areas closest to the north and sound poles where it stretched and land becomes visibly larger than it really is.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2019, 09:02:57 PM »
I think a lot of people find it hard to comprehend that someone could believe the world is like a packman level which is probably why he thinks you're trolling.

But you can comprehend someone who believes the earth is a flat circle with a dome and a firmament (whatever that is)?


That and you refer to the projection of the globe as a accurate map of the world without any distortion which it isn't. The Bing map is distorted, it is a distorted map in the same way every flat map of the world would be if it were projected from the globe. It is accurate in that you can navigate using it, but not accurate as a visual representation on a larger scale. the distortion comes from the the areas closest to the north and sound poles where it stretched and land becomes visibly larger than it really is.

An interactive map has an interactive scale. I've demonstrated many times where, based on the interactive scale, there is no distortion.


Assuming the image below shows three children each 3 feet tall is the image below distorted? By your logic yes this image is distorted. The closest child appears 4-5 times bigger than the furthest child.

By my logic, since this image has an interactive scale (or multiple scales), this is not distorted and the image accurately shows each child to be 3 feet tall.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2019, 09:17:48 PM »
No you have the idea of distortion wrong. The projection of the map is orthographic there is no perspective. Also the distortion on the poles comes from stretching out a single point across whole length of the equator.

EDIT: and no since you asked I cannot comprehend how anyone could think the earth is a disk either. but that's why I'm not a flat earther. :P
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 09:19:53 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2019, 09:51:18 PM »
An interactive map has an interactive scale. I've demonstrated many times where, based on the interactive scale, there is no distortion.
When you zoom all the way out, it's distorted. That's all that matters. I don't think anybody is arguing about being able to zoom in and have things appear locally flat except you.

Of course if you look at a map of any single country it will get sizes and distances etc. almost exactly right, because across small distances the Earth's curvature is small. According to your logic, this means the Earth is flat, and lets you ignore that it's impossible to produce a flat map of the entire world.

Do you understand that when you zoom in on Bing maps, you're looking at a different map? It's not a zoomed-in version of the same image, it's a different image.
**I move away from the infinite flat plane to breathe in

Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2019, 10:23:04 PM »
This thread is presumably about the flat Earth being unable to produce a map that is consistent with reality. Within this thread, only one person has put forth any attempt to address this, and the models put forth are Bing's interactive Mercator projection and what looks to be an Albers conic projection.

Are we truly being asked to accept that either of these maps represent the reality of the Earth? There's truly no accounting for what somebody might believe, but it sure seems a stretch that anyone might believe that either of these maps satisfies this test - particularly someone as thoughtful and well-spoken as iamcpc is.

In the end, a very specific request was answered with diagrams that EXPLICITLY fail to satisfy the request. What can we conclude? The obvious conclusion I draw from this is that iamcpc is deliberately failing to satisfy the request. From this, I further conclude that iamcpc fully understands the request, but CHOOSES to act like they do not.

Simply put, the obvious conclusion is that iamcpc is not representing something they actually believe, but is instead attempting to draw out the conversation to the frustration of their opponents. Unless this is your first time on the internet, you may have encountered a pattern like this before, and it has come to be called, "trolling."

To iamcpc, let me be perfectly clear. I do not believe that you are representing any honest belief that the Earth really works like bing maps. I do not believe you. Call it "devil's advocate" if you like, but you are not being genuine with us. If you care about my trust in you, that is the challenge you would have to overcome at this point.

To the rest of you, I'd say, "Don't feed the trolls."

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2019, 11:35:56 PM »
Do you understand that when you zoom in on Bing maps, you're looking at a different map? It's not a zoomed-in version of the same image, it's a different image.

Much like when I look at a united states road atlas the scale changes based on what state you look at. If you put all of the states together and gave them an interactive scale would that make them distorted? I guess some people could say yes. It's my option that, as long as the scale accurately shows all of the individual states and USA as a whole correct then it's not distorted.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2019, 11:39:44 PM »
This thread is presumably about the flat Earth being unable to produce a map that is consistent with reality.

 There are maps which represent the earth as a flat plane which are used and widely accepted as consistent with reality by literally hundreds of millions of people used by websites such as bing.com, mapquest.com, timeanddate.com etc etc etc.

They are so consistent with reality they are in virtually every school in the America.

Do you understand that when you zoom in on Bing maps, you're looking at a different map? It's not a zoomed-in version of the same image, it's a different image.

Much like when I look at a united states road atlas the scale changes based on what state you look at. If you put all of the states together and gave them an interactive scale would that make them distorted? I guess some people could say yes. It's my opinion that, as long as the scale accurately shows all of the individual states and USA as a whole correct then it's not distorted. It's a difference of opinion at this point.



To the rest of you, I'd say, "Don't feed the trolls."

Like me being asked to draw arrows or a line on a map dozens of different ways. I find that pretty trolling when they all document the same thing.

In that case, please show us this unbroken line on your Bing map. Please take a screenshot of your Bing map and draw over it a hypothetical trip from New York to London to Tokyo to LA and then back to New York. The trip should go Eastward and must not be broken. And just to save us an iteration of this nonsense, please don't try to use the excuse that you can dynamically scroll the map to make the trip by a series of unbroken lines. I asked for a single unbroken line.


Since drawing new and different lines on maps makes me an honest person instead of a lying troll here you go

Due to display limitations on Bing maps there is a portion of the map that can't be displayed in a screenshot. This is why multiple screenshots are needed. Please note that literally EVERYWHERE I've looked online to map these flight paths was shown on a map VERY similar to this.






Here's a line drawn on a map with a better aspect ratio.  Please note that literally EVERYWHERE I've looked online to map these flight paths was shown on a map VERY similar to this.



Here's the line drawn on a map which I feel is inaccurate:



Here's the line drawn on a model that has two poles.





« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 03:17:29 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2019, 06:06:00 PM »
Do you understand that when you zoom in on Bing maps, you're looking at a different map? It's not a zoomed-in version of the same image, it's a different image.

Much like when I look at a united states road atlas the scale changes based on what state you look at. If you put all of the states together and gave them an interactive scale would that make them distorted? I guess some people could say yes. It's my option that, as long as the scale accurately shows all of the individual states and USA as a whole correct then it's not distorted.

I know what you are trying to say here, but it still doesn't work without distortion. Take Wyoming for example. In Bing maps, Wyoming is depicted as a perfect rectangle (90 degree angles), no matter what zoom level you're at. But in reality, (looking straight down at it) Wyoming is actually trapezoidal, with an ever-so-slightly curved top and bottom. The northern border is 342 miles wide, while the southern border is 365 miles wide.

Why the discrepancy? Wyoming's borders line up exactly with longitude and latitude lines. On a sphere, longitude lines are not parallel; north of the equator, the space between lines gradually get closer together the further north you go (and in the reverse south of the equator). So, the space between the east and west borders will be wider in the south than the north, making Wyoming's southern border wider than the northern border.

The Mercator projection (which Bing maps uses) forces the longitude lines to be parallel...thus, trapezoids like Wyoming are projected as rectangles.

I should note that even though the distortions are there, they are still 'good enough' for navigation.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Mapping the Earth
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2019, 10:45:51 PM »

I know what you are trying to say here, but it still doesn't work without distortion. Take Wyoming for example. In Bing maps, Wyoming is depicted as a perfect rectangle (90 degree angles), no matter what zoom level you're at. But in reality, (looking straight down at it) Wyoming is actually trapezoidal, with an ever-so-slightly curved top and bottom. The northern border is 342 miles wide, while the southern border is 365 miles wide.



Google maps which represents the earth as a perfect sphere also shows Wyoming with 90 degree angles. Do you have any map or globe that shows wyoming as you describe