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Offline Dongmin

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Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« on: June 06, 2019, 11:06:06 AM »
I think most people know satellites exist and GPS's pretty much prove that but if the Earth is flat, would it be possible for a satellite to well rotate? orbit? around a flat Earth?? IDK, just wondering

Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2019, 12:01:13 PM »
Sure it is possible, but we would need a scientist who is smarter than Einstein to provide the necessary physics.

And we have just such a physicist, because he used to do Einstein's homework while at the Polytehnic Institute in Zurich: Dr. Paul Biefeld.

http://ttbrown.com/defying_gravity/12_biefeld-brown.html

“Yes,” Biefeld told the Denison campus newspaper, “when Einstein would forget to go to a class, he would come and borrow my notes to get caught up on what he had missed."

All satellites use the Biefeld-Brown effect to orbit above the surface of the Earth.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2031282#msg2031282


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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2019, 12:41:02 PM »
All satellites use the Biefeld-Brown effect to orbit above the surface of the Earth.

Interesting claim. Fancy going into more detail?
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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2019, 02:58:51 PM »


All satellites use the Biefeld-Brown effect to orbit above the surface of the Earth.



Pure bunk.   Please provide proof.
I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2019, 03:00:52 PM »


All satellites use the Biefeld-Brown effect to orbit above the surface of the Earth.



Pure bunk.   Please provide proof.

The thread asked for possibilities, not proof.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2019, 03:14:54 PM »


All satellites use the Biefeld-Brown effect to orbit above the surface of the Earth.



Pure bunk.   Please provide proof.

The thread asked for possibilities, not proof.

The thread asked for possibilities, Sandokhan made a definitive statement. Not that it was posssible, but that they do use the Biefield Brown effect. Don't be scared to let Sandokhan speak for himself.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2019, 03:20:47 PM »
I have already included the links to the full proofs (experiments performed in full vacuum) of the Biefeld-Brown effect:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2031282#msg2031282

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg759935#msg759935

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1852363#msg1852363

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1913909#msg1913909


It is very easy to prove that satellites cannot orbit a planet because of Newtonian gravity.

Here is the Allais effect, a total defiance of attractive gravity:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg760382#msg760382

It takes a single counterexample to demolish a theory.

Since satellites cannot and do not use Newtonian gravity to orbit a planet, then the only explanation left is the Biefeld-Brown effect.

If you have any other explanations, please bring them forward.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2019, 04:12:52 PM »


All satellites use the Biefeld-Brown effect to orbit above the surface of the Earth.



Pure bunk.   Please provide proof.

The thread asked for possibilities, not proof.


He didn't say it was possible, he said it is so.   Huge difference.   He is also admitting satellites exist.  I would have thought you would take exception to that.
I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

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Offline markjo

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2019, 04:44:12 PM »
I have already included the links to the full proofs (experiments performed in full vacuum) of the Biefeld-Brown effect:
Do you have any evidence that any of those experiments have been scaled up to full size (even cubesat size) satellites in orbit above the earth?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2019, 05:04:53 PM »
Biefeld-Brown effect basically debunked:

"Brown believed that his large, high voltage, high capacity capacitors produced an electric field strong enough to marginally interacted with the Earth's gravitational pull, a phenomenon he labeled electrogravitics. Several researchers claim that conventional physics cannot adequately explain the phenomenon.[16] The effect has become something of a cause célèbre in the UFO community, where it is seen as an example of something much more exotic than electrokinetics. Charles Berlitz devoted an entire chapter of his book The Philadelphia Experiment to a retelling of Brown's early work with the effect, implying he had discovered a new electrogravity effect and that it was being used by UFOs. Today, the Internet is filled with sites devoted to this interpretation of the effect.

There have been follow-ups on the claims that this force can be produced in a full vacuum, meaning it is an unknown anti-gravity force, and not just the more well known ion wind. As part of a study in 1990, U.S. Air Force researcher R. L. Talley conducted a test on a Biefeld–Brown-style capacitor to replicate the effect in a vacuum.[8] Despite attempts that increased the driving DC voltage to about 19 kV in vacuum chambers up to 10−6 torr, Talley observed no thrust in terms of static DC potential applied to the electrodes.[17] In 2003, NASA scientist Jonathan Campbell tested a lifter in a vacuum at 10−7 torr with a voltage of up to 50 kV, only to observe no movement from the lifter. Campbell pointed out to a Wired magazine reporter that creating a true vacuum similar to space for the test requires tens of thousands of dollars in equipment.[8]

Around the same time in 2003, researchers from the Army Research Laboratory (ARL) tested the Biefeld–Brown effect by building four different-sized asymmetric capacitors based on simple designs found on the Internet and then applying a high voltage of around 30 kV to them. According to their report, the researchers claimed that the effects of ion wind was at least three orders of magnitude too small to account for the observed force on the asymmetric capacitor in the air. Instead, they proposed that the Biefeld–Brown effect may be better explained using ion drift instead of ion wind due to how the former involves collisions instead of ballistic trajectories.[1] Around ten years later, researchers from the Technical University of Liberec conducted experiments on the Biefeld–Brown effect that supported ARL's claim that assigned ion drift as the most likely source of the generated force.[18]

In 2004, Martin Tajmar published a paper that also failed to replicate Brown's work and suggested that Brown may have instead observed the effects of a corona wind triggered by insufficient outgassing of the electrode assembly in the vacuum chamber and therefore misinterpreted the corona wind effects as a possible connection between gravitation and electromagnetism.[2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld%E2%80%93Brown_effect
BobLawBlah.

Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2019, 05:34:49 PM »
Do you have any evidence that any of those experiments have been scaled up to full size (even cubesat size) satellites in orbit above the earth?

The B-2 bomber uses the Biefeld-Brown effect.

"It was revealed in 1992, for example, that the B-2 Bomber used electrostatic charges on its leading wings and exhaust. According to aerospace experts, this was confirmation that the B-2 used electrogravitic principles based on the “Biefeld-Brown Effect”. The Biefeld-Brown Effect is based on the research of Thomas Townsend Brown who in 1928 gained a patent for his practical application of how high voltage electrostatic charges can reduce the weight of objects.

The B-2 bomber employs sufficiently high voltages to significantly reduce its weight. This enables the B-2
and other classified antigravity vehicles to display flight characteristics that appear to defy conventional laws of
physics. The key Obama appointee for introducing antigravity technology into the public sector is General Jones.
After retiring from the Marines on February 1, 2007, General Jones served on the Board of Directors of the
Boeing Corporation from June 21, 2007 to December 15, 2008. Boeing had been active at least since the early
1990’s in studies to apply antigravity technology for commercial use.

“In 2002, an internal Boeing project called ‘Gravity Research for Advanced Space Propulsion’ (GRASP) had
been disclosed to the aerospace industry. A GRASP briefing document obtained by Jane’s Defense Weekly
stated Boeing’s position: ‘If gravity modification is real, it will alter the entire aerospace business’”.

“According to a 2008 book by Dr. Paul LaViolette, Secrets of Antigravity Propulsion, Boeing completed a
separate classified study for the US military of electrogravitic propulsion recently before October 2007. Boeing
was rebuffed in its efforts to have such technology declassified and released into the public sector. As a Board
Director and member of Boeing’s Finance Committee at the time of the 2007 classified study, General Jones
was privy to and supported Boeing’s efforts in antigravity research and development. At the same time that
Boeing was actively seeking to develop antigravity technologies for a new generation of aircraft, Jones became
President of the Institute for 21st Century Energy. The Institute was created by the US Chamber of Commerce
with the following mission: ‘To secure America’s long-term energy security, America must reexamine outdated
and entrenched positions, become better informed about the sources of our fuel and power, and make judgments based on facts, sound science, and good American common sense’”



To put things in perspective, the article “How I Control Gravitation”, published in 1929 by Brown, presents
an electrogravitics-validating discovery about very heavy metal objects (44 lbs. each) separated by a dielectric
insulator, charged up to high voltages.


In 1956, a British research company, Aviation Studies (International) Ltd. published a classified report on Electrogravitics Systems examining various aspects of gravity control.  They summarized the pioneering work of Townsend Brown and then described the use of electrogravitic thrust as follows:

        “The essence of electrogravitics thrust is the use of a very strong positive charge on one side of the vehicle and a negative on the other.  The core of the motor is a condenser and the ability of the condenser to hold its charge (the K-number) is the yardstick of performance.  With air as 1, current dielectrical materials can yield 6 and use of barium aluminate can raise this considerably, barium titanium oxide (a baked ceramic) can offer 6,000 and there is a promise of 30,000, which would be sufficient for supersonic speed.”

        In one of their conclusions, based on Brown’s work, they suggested that: “Electrostatic energy sufficient to produce a Mach 3 fighter is possible with megavolt energies and a k of over 10,000.

Aviation Studies (International) Ltd. 1956. Electro-gravitics Systems: An examination of electrostatic motion, dynamic counterbary and barycentric control. p. 14. In Valone, T. (ed.), 1994. Electrogravitics Systems: Reports on a new propulsion methodology. Integrity Research Institute, Washington, DC 20005.


The B-2 Advanced Technology Bomber

        In 1993, LaViolette wrote a paper discussing the B-2 bomber and speculating on its probable antigravity propulsion system, based on a solid understanding of electrogravitics, the aircraft’s design and the materials used in its manufacture.  It appears that the craft is using a sophisticated form of the antigravity principles first described by T. Brown.  Support for this thesis came from the Aviation Week and Space Technology (March 9, 1992), which reported that the B-2 bomber electrostatically charges its leading edge and its exhaust stream.  Their information had come from a small group of former black project research scientists and engineers suggesting the B-2 utilizes antigravity technology.  This information was supported by Bob Oechsler, an ex-NASA mission specialist who had publicly made a similar claim in 1990.  These findings support the contention that there have been major developments in the area of antigravity propulsion which are presently being applied in advanced aircraft.

        LaViolette later states the obvious that “the commercial airline industry could dramatically benefit with this technology which would not only substantially increase the miles per gallon fuel efficiency of jet airliners, but would also permit high-speed flight that would dramatically cut flight time.”

Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2019, 05:50:59 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld%E2%80%93Brown_effect


http://users.erols.com/iri/TTBROWN2.htm

In 1985, Dr. Paul LaViolette was in the Library of Congress in Washington, DC and looked up the work "gravity" in the card catalog. Surprisingly, he found the listing for "Electrogravitics Systems," a report that was missing from the stacks. When the librarian tried to locate any other copies through interlibrary loan, she commented, "It must be an exotic document" because she could find only one in the country which was at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. Thus, LaViolette was successful in obtaining a copy of the formerly classified document. The mystery continued: seven years later when contacting the Wright-Patterson AFB Technical Library, they surprisingly found no reference in the computer-based card catalog. They did locate the document on the shelves, however, after being asked to search for it. To summarize, the report has historic value because:

It validates T.T. Brown's experiments;
It lists the major corporations that were collaborating on electrogravitics;
It includes the requirements for supersonic speed;
It shows the continuity from Project Winterhaven in 1952;
The report includes a list of electrostatic patents;
It had been classified by the Air Force for an undetermined amount of time which underscores its importance.

M. Tajmar writes:

"Hence, these studies lack from detailed information about the behavior of this effect with respect to voltage, current or ambient pressure."

You might write to him, so that his knowledge on the subject might be properly updated.

Biefeld-Brown effect verified completely at the Honda R&D Institute:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2031282#msg2031282

M. Tajmar again:

"However, Brown claimed that the effect remained in vacuum and therefore is not due to ionization of the ambient air. This was left unconfirmed."

Write to him again and inform him of the tests carried out by the French Government, Project Montgolfier:


https://web.archive.org/web/20140110041712/http://projetmontgolfier.info/

https://web.archive.org/web/20131025082102/http://projetmontgolfier.info/TT_Brown_Proposal.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20130522083124/http://projetmontgolfier.info/uploads/Section_3__Final_Report.pdf

In 1955 and 1956 Townsend Brown made two trips to Paris where he conducted tests of his electrokinetic apparatus and electrogravitic vacuum chamber tests in collaboration with the French aeronautical company Société National de Construction Aeronautiques du Sud Ouest (S.N.C.A.S.O.) .

In addition the Project Montgolfier team constructed a very large vacuum chamber for performing vacuum tests of smaller discs at a pressure of 5 X 10-5 mm Hg:



Left: Vacuum chamber vessel (1.4 m diameter) for conducting electrogravitic tests. Right: Vessel opened to show test rotor rig within. (photos courtesy of J. Cornillon)


Reading the section describing the vacuum chamber results, we learn that when the discs are operated at atmospheric pressure they move in the direction of the leading edge wire regardless of outboard wire polarity.  This indicates that in normal atmospheric conditions the discs are propelled forward primarily by unbalanced electrostatic forces due to the prevailing nonlinear field configuration (which causes thrust in the direction of the low field intensity ion cloud regardless of the ion polarity).  On the other hand, the report says that under high vacuum conditions the discs always moved in the direction of the positive pole, regardless of the polarity on the outboard wire. 

These vacuum chamber experiments were a decisive milestone in that they demonstrated beyond a doubt that electrogravitic propulsion was a real physical phenomenon. 

PAGE 26 OF THE FINAL REPORT FULLY DESCRIBES THE OBSERVED BIEFELD BROWN EFFECT IN FULL VACUUM CHAMBER

When the DISK SHAPED CAPACITOR WAS USED, the total deviation/movement was A FULL 30 DEGREES (deviation totale du systeme 30 degre).


No ion drift/wind

Experimental proof that the vacuum consists of ether.



(vacuum test performed by Gravitec, increasing the voltage from 15kv to 18 kv, clear movement/thrust of the capacitor can be seen; near the end the power is switched off, and then turned on again, and we can the visible thrust of the capacitor for a second time)

The first video supplied by Gravitec in 2003:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1852363#msg1852363 (vacuum test #1, Biefeld-Brown effect part I, contains the experiments performed by T. Brown in oil)



One of the best videos which exemplifies the Biefeld-Brown effect in vacuum:

https://web.archive.org/web/20050216062907/http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reginald/liftvac.html


http://lifters.online.fr/lifters/ascvacuum/index.htm (includes all necessary technical information and the video itself)


At the pressure of 1.72 x 10^-6 Torr ( High Vacuum conditions ), the apparatus rotates when the High Voltage is increased from 0 to +45 KV.


Dr. Takaaki Musha
Advanced Space Propulsion Investigation Committee (ASPIC)
Research Engineer on Naval Systems, Technical Research & Development Institute
Honda R&D Institute, Biefeld-Brown effect experiments

http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/musha/Musha.pdf

Explanation of dynamical Biefeld-Brown Effect from the standpoint of ZPF field

In 1956, T.T. Brown presented a discovery known as the Biefeld-Bown effect (abbreviated B-B effect) that a sufficiently charged capacitor with dielectrics exhibited unidirectional thrust in the direction of the positive plate.

From the 1st of February until the 1st of March in 1996, the research group of the HONDA R&D Institute conducted experiments to verify the B-B effect with an improved experimental device which rejected the influence of corona discharges and electric wind around the capacitor by setting the capacitor in the insulator oil contained within a metallic vessel . . . The experimental results measured by the Honda research group are shown . . .

. . . The theoretical analysis result suggests that the impulsive electric field applied to the dielectric material may produce a sufficient artificial gravity to attain velocities comparable to chemical rockets.


https://web.archive.org/web/20120710005059/http://www.ovaltech.ca/pdfss/Theoretical_Explanation_of_the_Biefield-Brown_Effect.pdf

Experiments carried out at the HONDA R&D Institute confirm that the Biefeld-Brown effect is real.

Direct experimental proof that the ether propagates through vacuum, causing the antigravitational Biefeld-Brown effect.

No gas left in the experiments: they were performed in vacuum.

Also the experiments carried out at the Honda R&D eliminated the possibility of ionic winds.



Here is the article referenced by you (ion drift):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262985133_Calculation_and_measurement_of_a_neutral_air_flow_velocity_impacting_a_high_voltage_capacitor_with_asymmetrical_electrodes?origin=publication_list

BIEFELD-BROWN EXPERIMENTS WITHOUT AIR FLOW

VIDEO: BIEFELD-BROWN EFFECT, balancing a condenser on a beam balance

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/elghatv1.htm (includes three videos of the experiment)



In 1955, he went to work for the French aerospace company SNCASO—Société Nationale de Constructions Aéronautiques du SudOuest. During this one-year research period, he ran his discs in a vacuum. If anything, they worked better in a vacuum.

http://www.rexresearch.com/gravitor/gravitor.htm

Since the time of the first test the apparatus and the methods used have been greatly improved and simplified. Cellular "gravitators" have taken the place of the large balls of lead. Rotating frames supporting two and four gravitators have made possible acceleration measurements. Molecular gravitators made of solid blocks of massive dielectric have given still greater efficiency. Rotors and pendulums operating under oil have eliminated atmospheric considerations as to pressure, temperature and humidity.

The disturbing effects of ionization, electron emission and pure electro-statics have likewise been carefully analyzed and eliminated. Finally after many years of tedious work and with refinement of methods we succeeded in observing the gravitational variations produced by the moon and sun and much smaller variations produced by the different planets.

Let us take, for example, the case of a gravitator totally immersed in oil but suspended so as to act as a pendulum and swing along the line of its elements.



When the direct current with high voltage (75-300 kilovolts) is applied the gravitator swings up the arc until its propulsive force balances the force of the earth's gravity resolved to that point, then it stops, but it does not remain there. The pendulum then gradually returns to the vertical or starting position even while the potential is maintained. The pendulum swings only to one side of the vertical. Less than five seconds is required for the test pendulum to reach the maximum amplitude of the swing but from thirty to eighty seconds are required for it to return to zero.

(T.T. Brown, How I Control Gravitation, 1929)

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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2019, 07:21:39 PM »
The Biefield-Brown effect requires the Earth to be charged. Since the net charge of the Earth is 0, your argument is null.
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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2019, 07:50:42 PM »
Sandhokan, please stop the word salad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrogravitics

Your source of LaViolette is an alien UFO conspiracy believer that writes about junk science. There is only conspiracy theorists that believe that the B-2 stealth bomber uses the effect.

Funny, there is a page on his website dedicated to "support" of his theories. If you read the letters (the ones that still exist on the website), none of them actually support his theories. They instead say, "ooh, interesting, I'll make note of that." Or "Have you tested your theory in conjunction with the data from this guy?"

https://starburstfound.org/letters-of-support/

Bunk.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 07:52:53 PM by WellRoundedIndividual »
BobLawBlah.

Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2019, 08:38:15 PM »
There is only conspiracy theorists that believe that the B-2 stealth bomber uses the effect.

You haven't done your homework.

But I have.

http://archive.aviationweek.com/issue/19920309



B-2 electrostatically charges its exhaust stream and the leading edges of its winglike body.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2019, 08:45:48 PM »
B-2 electrostatically charges its exhaust stream and the leading edges of its winglike body.
That article says that the electrostatic charges are believed to be for stealth purposes (reducing radar cross section).  It didn't say anything about anti-gravity.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 08:48:45 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2019, 09:01:35 PM »
"A scientist said other, more dramatic classified technologies are applicable to lasers, aircraft control and propulsion. However, the scientists and engineers were especially hesitant to discuss these projects."

"Besides it would take about 20 hr. to explain the principles, and very few people would understand them anyway."

What he meant is that this aircraft control and propulsion technology is based on physics principles that go beyond what is currently known and understood by the general public as well as most academic physicists.

Einstein was the pupil, Biefeld was the mentor.

Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2019, 10:19:06 PM »
What he meant is that this aircraft control and propulsion technology is based on physics principles that go beyond what is currently known and understood by the general public as well as most academic physicists.

Interesting and real, at the beginning of the 20 century, the average understanding of general public was no much more than how to ride a horse and cultivate potatoes.

One thing we know for sure, no great discovery of a single man stay hidden forever, sooner or later somebody else would work on the same idea and blow it up.  History show us examples of that.  The state of world technology open doors for thinkers, more than one person start to think about the same invention, solution, use of the available tools, etc.   Sorry, we don't have flying saucers around, not here anyway.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2019, 04:04:45 PM »
B-2 electrostatically charges its exhaust stream and the leading edges of its winglike body.
That article says that the electrostatic charges are believed to be for stealth purposes (reducing radar cross section).  It didn't say anything about anti-gravity.

This just keeps getting better.   Confirmation bias at work.
I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

Macarios

Re: Would it be possible for a satellite to rotate around a FE
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2019, 08:11:06 PM »
We don't know what laws of physics allow Sun, Moon and Wandering Stars to circulate
over the Flat Earth, but the same laws could allow satellites to do the same.

Now, are Sun, Moon and others really doing it is a different story. :)