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Online Pete Svarrior

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #80 on: July 17, 2019, 06:24:54 PM »
Quote
Gravitational mass is measured by comparing the force of gravity of an unknown mass to the force of gravity of a known mass. This is typically done with some sort of balance scale.
This is consistent with what rpt is saying. Gravitational mass is a ratio of two weights. In a RET gravitational model, this would remain constant between different celestial bodies.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #81 on: July 17, 2019, 07:46:00 PM »
rpt said: "You seem to be confusing gravitational mass with weight. On Jupiter an object will weigh more than it does on earth but its gravitational mass will stay the same."

What is the difference between gravitational mass and weight, if gravitational mass is determined by weight as measured by a scale? If gravitational mass is connected to weight, then on Jupiter an object will have a greater gravitational mass, even if the ratios between the weight of other masses stays the same.

Can we have a quote and a source for these assertions that gravitational mass never changes anywhere? The assertion that "gravitational mass" never changes, and is the same on Earth, on Jupiter, and on the Moon—always unchanging—is something that I would like to request a source on, as it goes against everything I have learned on the subject. Clearly, there is no gravitational mass in weightless space, so it cannot be unchanging.

A Study Packet

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Transport the spring balance and the inertial balance to the elevator and determine whether the gravitational mass and the inertial mass can be detected to change as the elevator descends. These determinations shouldonly be attempted after the students are relatively accomplished in usingtheir spring and inertial balances. [The gravitational mass will change but not the inertial mass.]

From A Dictionary of Scientists

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The gravitational mass depends on forces of gravitational attraction between two masses.

From flash cards based on a physics course:

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Q: How are gravitational mass and inertial mass alike and how are they different?

A: Gravitational mass depends on an objects gravitational pull and inertial remains the same.

Physics Final:

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Gravitational mass: depends on the strength of the force exerted upon it by the gravitational field

From Encyclopedia Britannica:

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Gravitational mass is determined by the strength of the gravitational force experienced by the body when in the gravitational field g.

I cannot seem to find anything which states that gravitational mass is universal and unchanging, or see anything about ratios. However, I do find sources which appear to directly state that gravitational mass is determined by the strength of the gravitational field. I submit that Encyclopedia Britannica is not mistaken.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 08:38:44 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #82 on: July 17, 2019, 10:13:22 PM »
I'm somehow curious about the Power Source causing UA.

That source should be quite stable through the whole Earth, otherwise if there was a slight instability we could start flipping like a coin?

Also, that source would be knowledgable of how mass is moved on the surface, so to change the power accordingly on the new location. In saying so I imagine a disk flying through space with a rocket, and stuff over it in a sort of stable way.

And it has been running since a lot of time, that will be a huge energy consumption, probably superior to REs estimates of the Big Bang. Where does that energy continuosly come from?
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these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline kopfverderber

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2019, 11:29:16 AM »
Shouldn't UA stop meteorites from falling on the earth?
"What giants?" said Sancho Panza.

"Those thou seest there," answered his master, "with the long arms, and some have them nearly two leagues long."

"Look, your worship," said Sancho; "what we see there are not giants but windmills, and what seem to be their arms are the sails that turned by the wind make the millstone go."

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Online Pete Svarrior

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2019, 04:42:21 PM »
Shouldn't UA stop meteorites from falling on the earth?
No.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline rpt

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2019, 01:42:33 PM »
From Encyclopedia Britannica:
Quote
Gravitational mass is determined by the strength of the gravitational force experienced by the body when in the gravitational field g.
Move the body to a different gravitational field and you will get a different force. But the mass remains the same.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2019, 02:28:33 PM »
From Encyclopedia Britannica:
Quote
Gravitational mass is determined by the strength of the gravitational force experienced by the body when in the gravitational field g.
Move the body to a different gravitational field and you will get a different force. But the mass remains the same.

Do you guys have a source that gravitational mass is unchanging and permenant in every environment, or do you have only your own opinion?

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Offline kopfverderber

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2019, 03:40:19 PM »
The theory of gravity is a mathematical interpretation of what we observe in nature. Gravity can be demonstrated, but I don't think there is an absolute proof of the law of gravity, if that is what you are asking.  Gravity provides a simple explanation of known facts and allows us to make extremely accurate predictions, that's why it's an established theory.

One cannot rule out alternative explanations to gravity, such as UA or magic. However those alternative models cannot explain what we observe in nature or make predictions as accurately as the law of gravity.

I'm sure you also know what Occam's Razor is. Gravity is a much simpler explanation than UA, because UA requires us to believe in additional things to what we observe.
"What giants?" said Sancho Panza.

"Those thou seest there," answered his master, "with the long arms, and some have them nearly two leagues long."

"Look, your worship," said Sancho; "what we see there are not giants but windmills, and what seem to be their arms are the sails that turned by the wind make the millstone go."

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2019, 05:23:26 PM »
Quote
The theory of gravity is a mathematical interpretation of what we observe in nature. Gravity can be demonstrated, but I don't think there is an absolute proof of the law of gravity, if that is what you are asking. 

I'm asking for a reference that gravitational mass is defined as static and unchanging in all environments.

Quote
I'm sure you also know what Occam's Razor is. Gravity is a much simpler explanation than UA, because UA requires us to believe in additional things to what we observe.

I didn't observe any gravitons, bendy space, or any spooky action-at-a-distance mechanism when I stepped off a chair and observed the earth accelerate up towards me. Please tell me which scientific instrument I need to buy that will observe this.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 05:27:15 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline kopfverderber

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2019, 09:35:48 PM »
That's not how it works. Gravitons are a hypothesis. There are problems that modern physics hasn't solved yet.

You might say that UA is also a hypothesis, I would say it's a very weak one. We barely know anything about what UA is supposed to be or  about the energy source that causes it. That's why flatearthers spend more time trying to debunk gravity than investigating their own theory of UA.  Do we already know why UA feels weaker at the equator than at the poles?
"What giants?" said Sancho Panza.

"Those thou seest there," answered his master, "with the long arms, and some have them nearly two leagues long."

"Look, your worship," said Sancho; "what we see there are not giants but windmills, and what seem to be their arms are the sails that turned by the wind make the millstone go."

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Offline markjo

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2019, 12:32:49 AM »
Quote
The theory of gravity is a mathematical interpretation of what we observe in nature. Gravity can be demonstrated, but I don't think there is an absolute proof of the law of gravity, if that is what you are asking. 

I'm asking for a reference that gravitational mass is defined as static and unchanging in all environments.
Gravitational mass is determined by the strength of the gravitational field.  Mass will always be static and constant, but gravitational mass will vary with the strength of the gravitational field.
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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2019, 08:29:34 PM »
Gravitational mass is determined by the strength of the gravitational field.  Mass will always be static and constant, but gravitational mass will vary with the strength of the gravitational field.

@markjo, I think you are confusing weight and gravitational mass there.  Here is what I learned from physics textbooks in grad school:

Let mg be the gravitational mass of object 1, Mg be the gravitational mass of object 2, G be the gravitational constant, and r be the separation between the masses.  Then the gravitational force on object 1 is Fg = GmgMg/r2.  So, the gravitational mass determines the strength of the gravitational force on an object.  The strength of the gravitational field created by object 2 at location r is g = GMg/r2.  Then the force is Fg = mgg.  (Although many people do it, I think it is confusing to call g the "acceleration of gravity".)  The force Fg is called the "weight" of object 1.  According to this treatment (which is the standard treatment taught in university physics classes), the gravitational mass of an object does not depend on the gravitational field, but the weight does.  Note also that the gravitational mass of object 1 does not depend on object 2 at all.  For example an object's gravitational mass is the same on Earth and on Jupiter, but the weights on Earth and Jupiter are very different because Earth and Jupiter create different gravitational fields.

Let mi be the inertial mass of object 1.  When a force F acts on object 1 its acceleration will be a = F/mi.  The inertial mass determines the relationship between any force (whatever its cause) and object 1's acceleration.

Experiments showing that mg = mi are routinely done in introductory physics laboratory classes.  In my opinion the coincidence that mg = mi is very surprising!!!  For all other types of forces (for example electrical forces) there are other "charges" that determine the strength of the force, but in this way gravity is special.  The theory of general relativity is built in such a way that mg = mi from the foundation of the theory, but it still does not really tell us why gravity has this property that other forces don't have.  This coincidence of mg = mi is the main problem of uniting gravity and quantum theory -- the biggest current problem of fundamental physics.

I have seen these quotes from sources like Encyclopedia Britannica, which says "Gravitational mass is determined by the strength of the gravitational force experienced by the body when in the gravitational field g.", but I think they are confusing because of their use of passive voice.  What they mean is that you can determine an object's gravitational mass by putting it in a gravitational field g and measuring the force Fg.  If you know g and Fg, then you can calculate mg=Fg/g.  Given the way that the Encyclopedia Britannica article discusses weight vs mass earlier in the article, it would not make sense to interpret this sentence in any other way.  The authors assume that the reader has already understood that "mass" always refers to an object's own properties not related to its location or other surrounding objects.