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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2019, 04:40:56 PM »
Wow, so UA is just a story someone created to try to justify FE mass attraction without using general gravity? without any known origins?
I'm not sure where you got that idea.

So, we are discussing here something without any reasonable scientific or proven experiences?
On the contrary, it's something you can experience every day.

Based on that, then UA is merely an idea, an attempt to justify, so I can create my own ideas of FE attraction of matter.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2019, 07:33:48 PM »
Bowling balls, books, and feathers 'drop' at the same rate of acceleration.

Anything which is pushed or pulled through space is subject to the laws of inertia. More massive bodies exhibit more resistance. It is more difficult to push a car in neutral down a road than it is to push a marble.

How does any theory of gravity that moves bodies through space towards the earth apply varrying amounts of energy or force to each body in order to move them all at the same rate? In order to move something through space, energy or force must be involved. Why should it adjust itself for all bodies like that?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 07:59:15 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Salviati

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2019, 08:12:27 PM »
Bowling balls, books, and feathers 'drop' at the same rate of acceleration.

Anything which is pushed or pulled through space is subject to the laws of inertia. It is more difficult to push a car in neutral down a road than it is to push a marble.

How does any theory of gravity that moves bodies through space towards the earth apply varrying amounts of energy or force to each body in order to move them all at the same rate? In order to move something through space, energy or force must be involved. Why should it adjust itself for all bodies like that?

You just answered yourself. "It is more difficult to push a car in neutral down a road than it is to push a marble."

An heavier body is attracted with a greater force (not energy!) and thus with greater acceleration, but inertia slows it down by an equal amount.

In other words Gravitational Mass = Inertial Mass

The funny thing is that flat earthers make correct examples of the law of gravity to say that gravity does not exist.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2019, 08:59:42 PM »
That doesn't make much sense.

Consider the RE Jupiter: Gravity is much higher there, right? Assuming that it had a solid surface, when dropping a bowling ball from an altitude of 10 feet above it's surface, a bowling ball would move at a greater rate of acceleration towards Jupiter than it would on the Earth.

Yet the laws of inertia are the same on Jupiter as they are on the Earth. On Jupiter Gravitational Mass != Inertial Mass. The same would apply to an area where gravity is much lesser, such as a moon somewhere.

Why should the Earth be a special coincidental place where not even the best research laboratories with the best equipment can find a violation of the Equivalence Principle which says that Gravitational Mass = Inertial Mass?

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Offline markjo

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2019, 09:04:37 PM »
Tom, why do you think that the earth is the only place in the universe where gravitational mass = inertial mass?

As you already said, the gravitational acceleration on Jupiter is greater than that of the earth, which means that it would take a greater force to impart that same greater acceleration on the same mass.  As long as you believe that acceleration is indistiguishable from gravity, then it stands to reason that gravitational mass should equal inertial mass all over the universe.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2019, 09:10:12 PM »
Tom, why do you think that the earth is the only place in the universe where gravitational mass = inertial mass?

As you already said, the gravitational acceleration on Jupiter is greater than that of the earth, which means that it would take a greater force to impart that same greater acceleration on the same mass.  As long as you believe that acceleration is indistiguishable from gravity, then it stands to reason that gravitational mass should equal inertial mass all over the universe.

The laws of inertia aren't different on other planets. The laws of inertia and motion are the same, just like the law of conservation energy, Archimedes Principle, etc, are the same.

On a different planet the gravity would change, but the other laws would remain the same. If there is an inequality between gravity and inertia then gravitational mass != inertial mass.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 09:18:51 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Salviati

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2019, 09:13:10 PM »
That doesn't make much sense.

Consider the RE Jupiter: Gravity is much higher there, right? Assuming that it had a solid surface, when dropping a bowling ball from an altitude of 10 feet above it's surface, a bowling ball would move at a greater rate of acceleration towards Jupiter than it would move towards the Earth.

Yet the laws of inertia are the same on Jupiter as they are on the Earth. On Jupiter Gravitational Mass != Inertial Mass. The same would apply to an area where gravity is much lesser, such as a moon somewhere.

Why should the Earth be a special coincidental place where not even the best research laboratories with the best equipment can find a violation of the Equivalence Principle?

You are climbing the mirrors, as we say in my country. You say:"a bowling ball would move at a greater rate of acceleration towards Jupiter than it would move towards the Earth. " And a feather would move at the very same rate of acceleration (in the vacuum of course) i would add. On the moon the rate is smaller, but the key concept is that all those bodies touch the ground at the same moment.

And as usual you answered yourself: "Why should the Earth be a special coincidental place where not even the best research laboratories with the best equipment can find a violation of the Equivalence Principle?"

Easy answer: no special place at all.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2019, 09:18:41 PM »
Quote
You are climbing the mirrors, as we say in my country. You say:"a bowling ball would move at a greater rate of acceleration towards Jupiter than it would move towards the Earth. " And a feather would move at the very same rate of acceleration (in the vacuum of course) i would add.

Since you agree that gravity would be greater on Jupiter, then there must be an inequality with the laws of inertia which do not change on Jupiter. Inertia depends on mass, and is an intrinsic property of a substance. If you bring a bowling ball to Jupiter, the inertia is the same as it is on Earth. Hence Gravitational Mass != Inertial Mass.

Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2019, 09:18:47 PM »
Bowling balls, books, and feathers 'drop' at the same rate of acceleration.
Anything which is pushed or pulled through space is subject to the laws of inertia. More massive bodies exhibit more resistance. It is more difficult to push a car in neutral down a road than it is to push a marble.
How does any theory of gravity that moves bodies through space towards the earth apply varrying amounts of energy or force to each body in order to move them all at the same rate? In order to move something through space, energy or force must be involved. Why should it adjust itself for all bodies like that?

Because a body is made of a bunch of atoms, each proton and counterpart neutrons+electrons (Atomic Number = Atomic Mass Units) would require exactly the same amount of energy to be put in motion.  More mass, more necessary energy.  You can move a feather by blowing, since it has much less mass than a car's mass.   It doesn't adjust itself for all bodies, it is a constant per unit of AN/AMU.  To push two trillion atoms of Sodium requires twice the energy of one trillion, no surprise on that, doesn't matter if you will push atom by atom or all of them at once in a huge rock, the total energy is just a scaling of the energy necessary to move a single atom.

Ants can move a dune, grain by grain of sand, with the same effort each time, the dune can be small or big.  To move a larger dune at the same time they move a small, they need much more ants.

Mass, Acceleration, Force and Gravity,  Inertial or Gravitational Mass, are inter-related.
The mass of Jupiter enter in formula as mass of Earth, attracting the same bowling ball 15lbs, here or there.
Even that G (gravitational constant) is the same, the final gravity acceleration (not a force, but you can think as it is a force) will be different due the difference of the masses. Don't mix up everything and confuse yourself.   
The gravitational mass and inertial mass on Jupiter will be the same, since larger mass produces larger gravity acceleration, so F=ma still equal to Gm1m2/r²
This works the same on Earth or in Jupiter.  F = 15lbs*JupiterGravityAcceleration = G*JupiterMass*15lbs/r², with variable r² (distance of masses).
I don't see why and where you think it is different.

I think you are thinking about pushing a bowling ball by hand, and thinking the force to achieve 1m/s² will be the same on Earth or in Jupiter, but gravity will be different on both... yes, but you are mistaken to use an external unequal acceleration, replace it by the planet acceleration of gravity and everything fits in place.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2019, 09:42:58 PM »
Quote from: spherical
The gravitational mass and inertial mass on Jupiter will be the same, since larger mass produces larger gravity acceleration, so F=ma still equal to Gm1m2/r²

It would not be the same. If you take a bowling ball from Earth to Jupiter, it still has its same mass in F=ma.

The gravity of Jupiter is stronger and it is pulling the bowling ball down at a faster rate of acceleration. Gravity increases, but the laws of inertia remain the same.

Consider a weightless environment out in intergalactic space far away from any gravity source: The laws of inertia do not change in a gravity-free environment. They are universal. It still takes more force and effort to push something more massive through a weightless environment than it does to push something less massive. Those laws don't go away.

If an elephant flies into you at 50mph in weightless space, it's still going to hurt you. See mainstream RE literature:

Quote from: Northwestern University
Objects in space follow the laws or rules of physics, just like objects on Earth do. Things in space have inertia.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 10:03:26 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2019, 10:04:21 PM »
Bowling balls, books, and feathers 'drop' at the same rate of acceleration.

Anything which is pushed or pulled through space is subject to the laws of inertia. More massive bodies exhibit more resistance. It is more difficult to push a car in neutral down a road than it is to push a marble.

How does any theory of gravity that moves bodies through space towards the earth apply varrying amounts of energy or force to each body in order to move them all at the same rate? In order to move something through space, energy or force must be involved. Why should it adjust itself for all bodies like that?
The force of gravity is proportional to the mass of both bodies.
So on earth the force of gravity on an object, Fg, is:

Fg = G x Me x Mo / r2

G = gravitational constant
Me = mass of earth
Mo = mass of object
r = distance between the centre of mass of earth and the object.

But we also know that F = ma
So, rearranging, a = F/m
The acceleration on an object due to gravity, g = Fg / Mo

But from the above, Fg = G x Me x Mo / r2

So:

g = Fg / Mo = (G x Me x Mo / r2) / Mo

The Mo cancels out: g = G x Me / r2

So the acceleration due to gravity on earth is dependant on earth is related to the mass of the earth, not the mass of the object.

If you plug in to the above values for G (6.674×10−11) the mass of earth in kg (5.9722×10+24) and the radius of earth in meters (6,371,000) you should get a pretty decent approximation for g
(I got 9.81986)

So this is why objects of different mass accelerate at the same rate regardless of their mass. Yes, larger objects require more force to accelerate them but the force of gravity is proportional to an object's mass so there is more force due to gravity acting on them.

And yes, on Jupiter the objects would all accelerate faster because of the mass of Jupiter is bigger. Still at the same rate as each other, but faster than on earth. On the moon it's the reverse. They accelerate at the same rate as each other there too but slower than on earth because the moon is less massive than the earth. And because the moon has no atmosphere and feathers don't get affected by other forces exerted by air that's a perfect place to do that exact experiment as David Scott did during Apollo 15:

If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2019, 10:34:11 PM »
See my example above with how inertia behaves in intergalactic weightless space far away from any gravity sources: It is the same. When an elephant smacks into you in space at 50mph, the impact of the force will be the same as on Earth. When you are shot in the chest with a bullet in space: you are going to die.

The laws of inertia do not depend on the gravity of the environment. It is a universal property. The laws of inertia are the same on Earth, in weightless space, and therefore on Jupiter. It does not "change".

Gravity does change in different gravity environments, however. Thus gravitational mass will not be equal to inertial mass.

A very wild and surprising coincidence, indeed, that Gravitational Mass should exactly equal Inertial Mass on Earth to the best resolution of modern physics.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2019, 10:37:43 PM »
The laws of inertia do not depend on the gravity of the environment. It is a universal property. The laws of inertia are the same on Earth, in weightless space, and therefore on Jupiter. It does not "change".

Gravity does change in different gravity environments, however. Thus gravitational mass will not be equal to inertial mass.
That seems an awful lot like a non sequitur.  Einstein said that gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable, so why should there be a difference between the two masses?  What's the difference between using a force to match earth's 9.8m/s2 acceleration due to gravity and using a force to match Jupiter's 24.8m/s2 acceleration due to gravity?

A very wild and surprising coincidence, indeed, that Gravitational Mass should exactly equal Inertial Mass on Earth to the best resolution of modern physics.
Perhaps it is a coincidence.  Or, maybe it's just two different ways of describing the same thing.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 10:39:39 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2019, 10:41:57 PM »
Tom, you still messing up apples with tomatoes.
The elephant inertia has nothing to do with Earth or Jupiter, it is just F=ma, its mass times the acceleration applied, thus, force applied that will hit you if you are stationary.
I still don't know why and where you think those forces are the same on Earth, they do not.
If you apply 50N to the elephant in space it will creates a certain acceleration that has nothing to do with Earth's or Jupiter's Gravity Acceleration.
You still putting both together, as "force=force".
What is the same, is not the number, is the concept, since both were created here on Earth, the same concept that created 1 liter of distilled water = 1kg at sea level.
F=ma is the same concept of Gm1m2/r², not the values, it was not coincidental, it was on purpose.
To accelerate this 1 liter of water to 1m/s it will require 1N, to accelerate to 9.8m/s, will require 9.8N.  The same 1kg dropping from 1 second from the surface of Earth, (G*EarthMass*1kg/r²) will generate an impact of 9.8N, funny, isn't it?  Can't you see they are two different things with same concept, and, if you want, same numbers?
An apple is red and round, the same for tomatoes, different things.
Please call your physics teacher from school and ask him about it.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 01:52:42 PM by spherical »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2019, 12:29:49 AM »
Here is a image of what occurs on Earth:



Inertial Mass and Gravitational Mass are the same. Both bodies will fall together. As Salvaiti said above:

Quote
An heavier body is attracted with a greater force (not energy!) and thus with greater acceleration, but inertia slows it down by an equal amount.

In intergalactic space the gravity is gone. Bodies will float, not fall, but will still exhibit inertial resistance.

On Jupiter the bodies will fall rather than float. Gravitational pull/acceleration in red is much longer and stronger than the image above. Yet the laws regarding inertial resistance should be the same and unchanged from the other scenarios, as it is a universal property unconnected to the gravity of the environment, as demonstrated by the weightless environment example.

If inertia is the same, but gravity is different, then the bodies should fall at different rates in relation to each other.

The inertial-gravitational mass equivalence coincidence on Earth is a piece of evidence against the Copernican and Mediocrity principles: We are indeed special.

https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0004/0004027.pdf

« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 02:18:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2019, 02:09:08 AM »
If inertia is the same, but gravity is different, then the bodies should fall at different rates in relation to each other.

The inertial-gravitational mass equivalence coincidence on Earth is a piece of evidence against the Copernican and Mediocrity principles: We are indeed special.
Tom, I don't think that the inertial-gravitational mass equivalence is a coincidence.  Rather, it's a natural consequence of Einstein showing that gravity and acceleration are equivalent.  If you're going to use the EP as a rationale for the UA, then you will also need to accept inertial-gravitational mass equivalence as well.  That is unless you have been to Jupiter and have experimentally demonstrated that inertial-gravitational mass equivalence does not hold there.

Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2019, 02:22:17 AM »
Quote
Tom, I don't think that the inertial-gravitational mass equivalence is a coincidence.  Rather, it's a natural consequence of Einstein showing that gravity and acceleration are equivalent.

How is it not a coincidence that inertia could slow two different bodies being pulled at two different rates towards the earth to an exact same rate of acceleration by multiple decimal points?

Einstein said it was a weird coincidence too. He came up with two versions of gravity: The Equivalence Principle and General Relativity. The Equivalence Principle says that gravity is like being in an upwardly accelerating elevator and General Relativity applies that theory to a round world by saying that gravity is a function to the 'geometry of space' in the vicinity of the earth. The objects are stationary and the earth is accelerating into the objects through the curvature of space.


General Relativity and Accelerating Upwards:

https://books.google.com/books?id=FFQjDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT34&lpg=PT34&dq=%22earth+pushing+you%22&source=bl&ots=MV9ROmx5Eu&sig=ACfU3U17gR2YnIJbxFhEuRhKz2cR-mVBgQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjaoLf6xMHiAhUPpFkKHTqqAMwQ6AEwDXoECB0QAQ#v=onepage&q=%22earth%20pushing%20you%22&f=false

Quote
  “ Consider a skydiver jumping out of an airplane. The skydiver falls freely, up to the effects of air resistance. According to Einstein, the skydiver's path is the straightest line possible through the curved space-time around the Earth. From the skydiver's perspective this seems quite natural. Except for the air rushing past her, the skydiver feels no perturbing forces at all. In fact, if it weren't for the air resistance, she would experience weightlessness in the same way that an astronaut does in orbit. The only reason we think the skydiver is accelerating is because we are used to using the surface of the Earth as our frame of reference. If we free ourselves from this convention, then we have no reason to think the skydiver is accelerating at all.

Now consider yourself on the ground, looking up at the falling daredevil. Normally, your intuitive description of your own motion would be that you are stationary. But again this is only because of our slavish regard to the Earth as the arbiter of what is at rest and what is moving. Free yourself from this prison, and you realize that you are, in fact, accelerating. You feel a force on the soles of your feet that pushes you upwards, in the same way that you would if you were in a lift that accelerated upwards very quickly. In Einstein's picture there is no difference between your experience sanding on Earth and your experience in the lift. In both situations you are accelerating upwards. In the latter situation it is the lift that is responsible for your acceleration. In the former, it is the fact that the Earth is solid that pushes you upwards through space-time, knocking you off your free-fall trajectory. That the surface of the Earth can accelerate upwards at every point on its surface, and remain as a solid object, is because it exists in a curved space-time and not in a flat space.

With this change in perspective the true nature of gravity becomes apparent. The free falling skydiver is brought to Earth because the space-time through which she falls is curved. It is not an external force that tugs her downwards, but her own natural motion through a curved space. On the other hand, as a person standing on the ground, the pressure you feel on the soles of your feet is due to the rigidity of the Earth pushing you upwards. Again, there is no external force pulling you to Earth. It is only the electrostatic forces in the rocks below your feet that keep the ground rigid, and that prevents you from taking what would be your natural motion (which would also be free fall).

So, if we free ourselves from defining our motion with respect to the surface of the Earth we realize that the skydiver is not accelerating, while the person who stands on the surface of the Earth is accelerating. Just the opposite of what we usually think. Going back to Galileo's experiment on the leaning tower of Pisa, we can now see why he observed all of his cannonballs to fall at the same rate. It wasn't really the cannonballs that were accelerating away from Galileo at all, it was Galileo that was accelerating away from the cannonballs!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 03:44:54 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2019, 10:28:44 AM »
Quote
Tom, I don't think that the inertial-gravitational mass equivalence is a coincidence.  Rather, it's a natural consequence of Einstein showing that gravity and acceleration are equivalent.

How is it not a coincidence that inertia could slow two different bodies being pulled at two different rates towards the earth to an exact same rate of acceleration by multiple decimal points?
It's not a coincidence, it just seems to be a property of gravity. It's counter-intuitive, you'd think that more massive objects would fall more quickly than less massive ones, but that's not what we observe.
More massive objects do require more force to accelerate them but gravity does exert more force on those objects. F = ma but
Fg = G x m1 x m2 / r2
So the force of gravity on an object is proportional to its mass, as is the force required to accelerate an object a certain amount. This is why the acceleration of an object in a gravitational field is the same on all objects. It just seems to be a property of how gravity works. It's like asking why light travels at 186,000(ish) miles a second in a vacuum. It just does, it seems to be a property of light.

The thing I don't understand is why you think this is unique to earth. As I showed in the video above, two objects of different mass accelerate and thus fall at the same rate on the moon too, they would on Jupiter too.

The equivalence principle does say that you can't tell the difference between whether objects fall or the earth is accelerating upwards, if you see video taken from a roundabout how can you tell if the roundabout is revolving or the world is rotating around it? It looks from the roundabout's point of view like it's the roundabout is still but we know that isn't the case. Things like the Cavendish experiment, differences in gravitational pull across the globe which work with the model of gravity and globe earth but not UA and our observations of the way celestial objects move show us which is the right explanation. Neptune was discovered because the orbits of other planets indicated there was another body out there pulling on them. Things like this - and of course the ISS and countless other satellites which orbit the globe - show us which is the right explanation.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 10:44:07 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2019, 12:06:06 PM »
According to Newtonian Gravity bodies of different masses are pulled at different rates towards the Earth, and they are slowed to the exact same rate of acceleration through inertial resistance via Newton's Mass Equivalence Principle. It's an odd coincidence since inertia is a universal property which still exists independently in a weightless environment and has nothing to do with the gravity field it is in. If the gravitational field of Earth were any stronger or weaker, the inertia would be the same, and there would not be an exact equivalency.

This, and other elements, were too big of a coincidence, which is why Einstein came up with his upwardly accelerating Earth ideas with Einstein's Equivalence Principle and GR.

Cavendish and Neptune discussed here:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Cavendish_Experiment
https://wiki.tfes.org/Discovery_of_Neptune
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 03:56:20 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Clarifications on UA
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2019, 12:16:12 PM »
According to Newtonian gravity bodies of different masses are pulled at different rates towards the earth.
What is your basis for that claim?
I showed using Newton's equations above that objects of different mass are accelerated towards earth (or any body) at the same rate.
The force on them is proportional to their mass, that's why the acceleration is agnostic of their mass.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.