Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2019, 01:25:18 AM »
How do you establish someone else's knowledge of something?
I don't have to in this argument, it is a priori condition, a given.  I will rephrase to make it more obvious for you:

A) False is the opposite of True.
B) If something is False and if a person knows it is False, yet claims it is True, the person is a liar.
C) If # people knowingly make claim that this False something is True, all # people are liars.
You don't agree?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 04:03:39 AM by Voltare »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2019, 08:29:07 AM »
I disagree that it's a given in the actual scenario we're discussing (and, as stated before, I'm not willing to engage in empty hypotheticals) - hence my previous question. Since you haven't altered that part of your reasoning in any meaningful way, I'm unable to proceed.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 08:31:13 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Pinky

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Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2019, 11:53:46 AM »
There is no such thing as "the official TFES-position on the conspiracy" - I am unlikely to have contradicted something that doesn't exist, although this is a question best left for philosophers.

As for citations or sources - congratulations, you successfully discovered that nobody wrote a scientific paper on a mistake you made on an online forum a few hours. Shocking.

If the existence of the conspiracy is not the official position of TFES, then why does the TFES-website state the existence of the conspiracy as a fact?

I claimed there are no examples. YOU refuted MY claim by bringing up unproven claims. I cannot prove that there are no examples, but YOU can prove that there are examples. Accordingly, the burden of proof is on YOU.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 12:26:31 PM by Pinky »

Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2019, 02:07:53 PM »
I disagree that it's a given in the actual scenario we're discussing (and, as stated before, I'm not willing to engage in empty hypotheticals)
We're all just here trying to pursue the truth Pete.  I was just trying to establish a foundation of truth using boolean logic so at least we could find something we can all agree on and then use that to build more truth upon.  Since you won't even bring yourself to agree on the simplest base scenario, I'll bring it back to the actual scenario we are discussing.

Facts:
1) Flat Earther Claim:  There is a space travel conspiracy.  Humans have not been to space.   Space travel is being faked.  Space travel is false.
2) Space Agency Claim:  They have traveled in space.  Humans have been to space.  Space travel is real.
3) In order for the Flat Earther claim to be valid reality, we can establish that the Space Agency's knowledge about space travel is a given.  They know their organization has not traveled in space, since in reality it has not.  They know their agency has not put humans in space, since in reality they have not.  They know space travel is false and by virtue of this knowledge, they are forced to actively fake it to cover it up.  They are liars.  Their knowledge that space travel is false is precisely the foundation for the conspiracy.  No knowledge, nothing to cover up, no conspiracy.  Their knowledge is a given.

Which brings us back full circle to the logical imperative:
A) False is the opposite of True.
B) If space travel is False and if an organization knows it is False, yet claims it is True, that organization is a liar.
C) If 14 space agencies knowingly make False claims that space travel is True, all 14 organizations are liars.
You don't agree?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 03:12:37 PM by Voltare »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2019, 05:16:42 PM »
If the existence of the conspiracy is not the official position of TFES, then why does the TFES-website state the existence of the conspiracy as a fact?
What's a "TFES-website"? You need to start using words that actually a meaning.

In this particular case, you're objecting to the fact that a Wiki article, primarily written by Tom, outlines the tenets of a potential conspiracy. Your failure was already outlined to you - you need to figure out how the Wiki works.

I claimed there are no examples.
I see you've chosen to lie again. I wish you a fantastic day, but I will not be wasting any more of my time on your intellectual dishonesty.

B) If space travel is False and if an organization knows it is False, yet claims it is True, that organization is a liar.
You still haven't addressed the problem with your claim. How do you establish what said organisations do and do not know? It is also unhelpful to shift the discussion to organisations, since it further dilutes the subject domain. You should be discussing individuals.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 05:18:27 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2019, 09:02:19 PM »
It is also unhelpful to shift the discussion to organizations, since it further dilutes the subject domain. You should be discussing individuals.
Why should I?  If only one individual in all of NASA is responsible for creating fake pictures of the round earth, the instant NASA publishes that picture, NASA as a whole can be implicated as a perpetrator of the hoax.  If NASA the organization didn't agree, they would not publish it or at the very least would retract it.

What I’m trying to do is put some meat on the bare bones of these specific Flat Earth Claims:

1.   “The Conspiracy is the blanket term most commonly used by proponents of Zeteticism to refer to the active faking of space travel.”
2.   “There is no Flat Earth Conspiracy.”
3.   “There is a Space Travel Conspiracy.”

So in light of these Flat Earth declarations, my claim is this:
A.   By definition of this conspiracy which is the “faking of space travel” we can conclude that anyone faking space travel is thereby a member of the conspiracy. 
B.   Since space travel is fake by definition of the conspiracy, anyone claiming space travel is faking it.
C.   Anyone claiming space travel is thereby a member of the conspiracy.
D.   14 Space agencies claim space travel, they are thereby members of the conspiracy.

You don’t agree?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2019, 11:04:41 PM »
B.   Since space travel is fake by definition of the conspiracy, anyone claiming space travel is faking it.
I already told you four(?) times why this logic fails. Until you've resolved that issue, this conversation cannot proceed in any meaningful way.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2019, 12:11:58 AM »
The Wiki doesn't speak for everyone. It's just a Flat Earth-specific resource where further understanding of some subjects may be gained, like Wikipedia. I would like to see more contributors, who would need to be Flat Earth contributors, so that greater variety than just my own thoughts could be expressed, but I an unsure how to make that happen at this time.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 04:44:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2019, 02:35:46 AM »
It has been my assumption about the “conspiracy” that it is this huge all-powerful foe which seeks to suppress flat earth reality and sustain round earth fiction.  I have come to understand from a previous thread that this couldn’t be farther from the truth.

From the Flat Earth Wiki, it states that “There is no Flat Earth Conspiracy” but “There is a Space Travel Conspiracy”.

This doesn’t provide a whole lot of information to go on, and as such I was wondering what flat earthers believe in more detail.  I’m curious as to what extent flat earthers believe the conspiracy entails, how deep, how wide.  I’m curious to know if you are skeptical of the conspiracy theory and why.


Voltare good question, i always wonder why nobody speaks more openly about a flat earth possibility.

I think it has to do with the language barrier.  I know it's weird that nobody would hear any news about alternative science ideas coming from high up.   Even Hawkings changed his mind on stuff along with other scientists like about dinosaurs and whether the universe expands or contracts nowadays.   

Maybe America took the lead and stood firmly about certain opinions and most other countries kinda just went along.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2019, 06:41:32 AM »
Maybe America took the lead and stood firmly about certain opinions and most other countries kinda just went along.

America was in the process of being colonised in the 1600s. Folk like Norwood, in the UK, were already taking steps to measure the circumference of the globe.

Who would be likely to have "stood firm" in America at this time?
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Re: Extent of the "Conspiracy"
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2019, 09:23:03 PM »
The beauty and elegance of a conspiracy theory or a set of conspiracy theories (i.e. the moon landing was faked, governments are covering up a flat earth, etc..) is that one can be vague enough to postulate something without having to really prove it or put forwards sound arguments or facts.

Absurd notions (like those that might require vast and coordinated government cover ups that never leak, or faked photography, or faked landings) are ignored without any deep critical thought applied to the realities of being able to pull something like this off, seamlessly for decades, without any leak or error.

When engaging to get specific on details or notions (like whom all is involved in the conspiracy) the anticipated response is vague or not very much rich detail.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 10:03:04 PM by goldeneagle »