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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Celestial Gravitation
« on: May 03, 2019, 02:04:11 PM »
In the wiki, it states from https://wiki.tfes.org/Universal_Acceleration:

"In the FE universe, gravitation (not gravity) exists in other celestial bodies. The gravitational pull of the stars, for example, causes observable tidal effects on Earth.

Q: Why does gravity vary with altitude?

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull"

and

"Universal Acceleration (UA) is a theory of gravity in the Flat Earth Model. UA asserts that the Earth is accelerating 'upward' at a constant rate of 9.8m/s^2.

This produces the effect commonly referred to as "gravity"."

and from https://wiki.tfes.org/Celestial_Gravitation:

"Celestial Gravitation is a part of some Flat Earth models which involve an attraction by all objects of mass on earth to the heavenly bodies. This is not the same as Gravity, since Celestial Gravitation does not imply an attraction between objects of mass on Earth. Celestial Gravitation accounts for tides and other gravimetric anomalies across the Earth's plane."

First, you acknowledge that CG is only part of some flat earth models. Yet, in UA, you imply its existence as a certainty. I think this is due to the known gravimetric anomalies that exist on earth (both FE and RE acknowledge this). However, it is shown that even though some anomalies exist due to high altitudes (which could be explained by CG), there are also anomalies that are dependent on rock density (which is how some mineral deposits are tracked and found). This is not explainable by UA or CG - in UA all objects on the surface of the Earth are accelerating at the same speed - so CG only accounting for altitude based anomalies cannot provide a full explanation of UA "gravity." Something else must exist. No matter what you can say about anomalies existing and going against the theory of RE gravity, you still cannot explain it by simply using UA and CG. Earth must either have its own CG, or gravity must exist.

Yet, contradictory to what you state elsewhere (that anomalies and CG exist), you also state: "Gravity appears to behave as if the earth is accelerating upwards, that there is no gravity gradient, and there are no other gravitating sources around us."

My premise is this: if other bodies of mass have CG, then earth has CG. Anomalies exist that cannot be explained by CG and UA alone. All of your above statements are contradictory or false.



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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2019, 04:33:51 PM »
Please reference an experiment for your idea that gravity varies by altitude. A lot of that is based on theory.

Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2019, 04:52:57 PM »
I have neither the time nor the means to make a quick journey to Mount Everest equipped with a set of bathroom scales so I can check for any differences in my weight at base camp and then at the summit. However given that gravitational force obeys the inverse square law that would imply that if your weight is F(g) then it will decrease as the distance between two masses increases. I am one mass (m) and the Earth (with the core as the centre of mass) is the other mass (M).

There are loads of websites which seem to agree with this prediction and provide a detailed explanation as to why.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2019, 05:23:44 PM »
I dont have to reference any experiment. RE and FE theory already agrees on this! It is stated in your Wiki that as elevation changes "gravity" changes due to CG! You (FE community as a whole - not any specific individual) therefore believe gravity anomalies exist due to altitude. Ridiculous.

Or is this a cover your ass kind of case? "Oh, we may not actually believe in CG, but just in case RE is correct and that gravity anomalies exist, lets come up with a reason in FE world as to why they exist."  Why don't you produce an experiment that shows that CG exists? Since FE is making the claim!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 05:25:36 PM by WellRoundedIndividual »
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Offline QED

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2019, 05:48:34 PM »
Please reference an experiment for your idea that gravity varies by altitude. A lot of that is based on theory.

A tremendous plethora of data exists such that the variations across the the entire earths surface have been mapped several times.

https://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/k-4/features/F_Measuring_Gravity_With_Grace.html
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2019, 06:03:31 PM »
I dont have to reference any experiment.

Then it appears that you have no argument.

Please reference an experiment for your idea that gravity varies by altitude. A lot of that is based on theory.

A tremendous plethora of data exists such that the variations across the the entire earths surface have been mapped several times.

https://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/k-4/features/F_Measuring_Gravity_With_Grace.html


Gravimeters are seismometers and operate under the theory of "gravity waves" and "infragravity waves". It's not a direct measurement of gravity: https://wiki.tfes.org/Gravimetry

Also, that's not an experiment for gravity by altitude.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 12:54:37 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2019, 06:25:41 PM »
Please reference an experiment for your idea that gravity varies by altitude.



It lasts one hour, so if you're back here decrying it in 10 minutes, we'll all KNOW you're just cherry-picking from it.
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Offline stack

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2019, 06:26:41 PM »
I dont have to reference any experiment.

Then it appears that you have no argument.

Please reference an experiment for your idea that gravity varies by altitude. A lot of that is based on theory.

A tremendous plethora of data exists such that the variations across the the entire earths surface have been mapped several times.

https://www.nasa.gov/audience/foreducators/k-4/features/F_Measuring_Gravity_With_Grace.html


Gravimeters are seismeters and operate under the theory of "gravity waves" and "infragravity waves". It's not a direct measurement of gravity: https://wiki.tfes.org/Gravimetry

Would this be any different than measuring the amplitude of sound using sound waves?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2019, 06:30:00 PM »
It appears your WIKI is false, as well, since you are denying the existence gravity anomalies, yet attempt to explain these anomalies that exist with CG. So which is it? I am not here to conduct experiments.  This forum is Flat Earth Theory not Flat Earth Investigations. I am refuting your claims in your theory.

YOUR WIKI literally claims that gravity varies by altitude due to CG. And now you are denying that this exists!

YOUR WIKI literally claims in one spot that celestial gravitation exists - moon and stars.  Yet I quoted in my OP that YOUR WIKI states that "there are no other sources of gravitation." YOUR WIKI is contradicting itself. If there are no other sources of gravitation, then CG does not exist! If CG does not exist, how does FE explain gravity anomalies!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 06:32:48 PM by WellRoundedIndividual »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2019, 06:35:26 PM »
YOUR WIKI literally claims that gravity varies by altitude due to CG. And now you are denying that this exists!

Actually what you quoted says that CG is in some models, not all models. You appear to have constructed a false argument.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 06:39:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2019, 06:38:30 PM »
Which is why I bring up this point. Your theory is contradictory. See my OP.



In the wiki, it states from https://wiki.tfes.org/Universal_Acceleration:

"In the FE universe, gravitation (not gravity) exists in other celestial bodies. The gravitational pull of the stars, for example, causes observable tidal effects on Earth.

Q: Why does gravity vary with altitude?

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull"



This is in UA! Are you now saying that UA is false? Which is it? Is there CG? Is there variations in gravity?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2019, 06:55:10 PM »
As you have quoted, the CG page clarifies that CG in some models, not all models.

Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2019, 07:40:26 PM »
Quote
The gravitational pull of the stars, for example, causes observable tidal effects on Earth

Given that the next nearest star after the Sun is 4.3 lightyears away, could someone offer me an example of evidence that shows this to be the case?  After all you have said that the effects are observable.

Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2019, 08:12:59 PM »
The Twin Grace Satellites mapped the planet's gravity.  They orbit the planet at the same altitude (286 miles), one just 137 miles behind another following the exact same path.  When the leading satellite finds a place with pronounced space deformity (strong gravity, even if little), it slides a bit into such less dense space and accelerates a bit. The opposite is true, when finding a place where gravity is weaker (less space deformity), the leading satellite slows down its speed.



Both satellites keep track of their distance precisely, and based on minute changes in such distance they log abnormalities in the space deformation, caused by uneven mass down on the planet.   Several different reasons the planet may present differences in mass, material composition, mountains, valleys, water, etc.   The images on this NASA link are exaggerated to demonstrate the survey results.'

https://nasaviz.gsfc.nasa.gov/11234

The European satellite GOCE also mapped the planet changes in space deformation caused by differences in mass below.  This satellite helped to track movement of lava underground, and melting glaciers. It helped to produce the first high resolution map of the boundary between the Earth's crust and mantle.  To increase resolution, the satellite was lowered to an altitude from 158 to 146 miles.

https://www.space.com/18575-gravity-satellite-lowers-orbit.html

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2019, 08:28:04 PM »
I've clarified a section on the Universal Accelerator page:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Universal_Acceleration

Quote
== Variations in Gravity ==

'''Q:''' Why does gravity vary with altitude?

'''A:''' According to some models the moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull. This is given as an answer to tidal effects and variations of gravity with altitude. Other models question whether variations in gravity actually exist.

Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2019, 08:47:19 PM »
Well that's very good of you Tom.  Since reference is made to multiple models, which do you subscribe to? How do you account for any tidal effects being felt on Earth from the stars given how distant they are?

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Offline markjo

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2019, 09:00:11 PM »
YOUR WIKI literally claims that gravity varies by altitude due to CG. And now you are denying that this exists!

Actually what you quoted says that CG is in some models, not all models. You appear to have constructed a false argument.
Not quite.  If there were no observed variations in gravity at different altitudes, then there would be no need for CG in any model.  The mere fact CG is proposed in any model is an acknowledgement that the observed gravitational variations are real and need an explanation.
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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2019, 09:12:18 PM »
Quote
The mere fact CG is proposed in any model is an acknowledgement that the observed gravitational variations are real and need an explanation.

I'm not sure that CG as such (the way it is described in the FE Wiki) has ever been directly observed.  Gravitational variations have been observed but they are not caused by what the FE community describe as celestial gravitation. That has just been made up as part of FE theory.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2019, 09:22:38 PM »
Well that's very good of you Tom.  Since reference is made to multiple models, which do you subscribe to? How do you account for any tidal effects being felt on Earth from the stars given how distant tahey are?

I personally don't believe that there are variations in gravity. The only devices claiming to detect tidal effect appear to be the seismometers (gravimeters).

YOUR WIKI literally claims that gravity varies by altitude due to CG. And now you are denying that this exists!

Actually what you quoted says that CG is in some models, not all models. You appear to have constructed a false argument.
Not quite.  If there were no observed variations in gravity at different altitudes, then there would be no need for CG in any model.  The mere fact CG is proposed in any model is an acknowledgement that the observed gravitational variations are real and need an explanation.

CG accepts the claims of the standard model. The fact that it is proposed isn't necessarily verification that those things have actually been observed. CG is a holdover from a time when there was less research done on the gravity experiments.

If you can find some experiments that do claim to see deviations, I'm happy to put it in the Wiki in support of CG. I don't really care either way. What I found when I went looking for them, provided in the Variations of Gravity page, suggest that there are no deviations.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 09:47:47 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Celestial Gravitation
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2019, 09:38:11 PM »
Quote
I personally don't believe that there are variations in gravity. Those tidal effects are only being felt in seismometers (gravimeters).

There are certainly no gravitational variations caused by the stars. Far too distant. But variations caused by altitude increase are real enough. Very slight within the range of what you can achieve without resorting to air/spacecraft, but measurable nonetheless.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/42-our-solar-system/the-earth/gravity/93-does-gravity-vary-across-the-surface-of-the-earth-intermediate