I have heard of many instances of persons subscribing to flat earth teachings being mocked, but I'm wondering from flat earthers if they have experienced persecution of an sort up to and including having your lives threatened in any way.  I would imagine exposing the greatest global conspiracy of all time would be extremely risky considering all the powerful nations and agencies at their command and the monies invested in keeping the round earth myth alive would cause conspirators to stop short of nothing to quash the flat earth truth. 

This web site must face an enormous onslaught of denial of service attacks from conspirators seeking to gag anyone denying the round earth narrative.  Tom Bishop and Pete Svarrior most certainly must be quite high up on many governmental hit lists.  Do you guys have body guards?  Does key flat earth leadership have to live off the grid, keep a low profile, hide out, avoid public appearances?

Offline iamcpc

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I have heard of many instances of persons subscribing to flat earth teachings being mocked, but I'm wondering from flat earthers if they have experienced persecution of an sort up to and including having your lives threatened in any way.  I would imagine exposing the greatest global conspiracy of all time would be extremely risky considering all the powerful nations and agencies at their command and the monies invested in keeping the round earth myth alive would cause conspirators to stop short of nothing to quash the flat earth truth. 

This web site must face an enormous onslaught of denial of service attacks from conspirators seeking to gag anyone denying the round earth narrative.  Tom Bishop and Pete Svarrior most certainly must be quite high up on many governmental hit lists.  Do you guys have body guards?  Does key flat earth leadership have to live off the grid, keep a low profile, hide out, avoid public appearances?

I would assume that the conspiracy involves controlling the masses. As long as the masses are controlled they don't care.


Another theory is that flat earthers are killed constantly but they are done so in such a way that no one every finds out about it.

Maybe they pay some flat earthers to keep silent

Maybe the powers behind the conspiracy are not threatened by people on the internet where everyone predicts everything.

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Offline Jeppspace

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Yes, but I'm a ghost. Boo!
Anyone who would pay Richard Branson hundreds of thousands of dollars for the visual confirmation that we are all doomed to the unforgiving abyss of space, definitely deserves to know that.

: Infinite ¥ : Szion = : Plane

Another theory is that flat earthers are killed constantly but they are done so in such a way that no one every finds out about it.

That's what they say about tigerdan925, who "disappeared" in the middle of producing some videos where he was showing the actual existence of Antarctica , nobody knows what really happened to him.
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Your proposition ignores the Streisand effect. While I'm proud of what we've accomplished here, it's no secret that we're a small minority in the world, and that most people don't take us very seriously. Any government attempt at suppressing us would only lead to a surge in popularity.

Governments are notoriously bad at Internet censorship, largely thanks to the design of the Internet. Even a China-style firewall is relatively easily bypassed for now. A DDoS attack would be especially ineffective, since most of our content is available from more than one source.

As for personal precautions, I hope you won't be too surprised if I choose not to comment.
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Offline QED

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Hmmm, I find those to be generally valid points, Pete.

The thought that occurs to me when reading them, however, is: aren’t you evaluating the government by two different standards?

On the one hand, they are organized and powerful enough to run a global conspiracy which includes scientists, the aviation industry, research labs across the globe (sorry), manufacturers of rocket technology, satellite technology, government officials and their aids, the CIA, pentagon, and their foreign counterparts; the list goes on.

Folks’ interests just do not align on this grand scale or for these long durations. It is a spectacular reach to propose that a 1/4 (or so) of the world’s population is in active conspiracy against the remainder, for a purpose which presents no real benefit to the average person. Hence, this conspiracy must be pristine at preserving the secret and preventing some random secretary or other minor level dissenter from blowing the whistle.

Yet this same hegemonic masterpiece of a totalitarian regime cannot spar with a ragtag amateur internet website? I just don’t buy this.

BTW, no offense intended to you ragtag bunch :) - I’m sure that’s how this regime would see you, hence I described it from their perspective for rhetorical emphasis (I hope that’s obvious).
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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My idea isn't that they cannot do it. The US Government could quite easily have this website removed, much more directly than via a DDoS attack. My suggestion is that 1) The positive outcomes of such an action would be negligible and 2) Potential negative outcomes exist.

On the balance, it seems to me that it simply wouldn't make sense for them to start shutting down relatively small websites like this one. Note that this is in stark contrast to what corporations (e.g. Google) are doing - and that their attempts at marginalising Flat Earth content brought a wave of media coverage which (in a very subjective assessment on my part) likely brought more people to FE content.
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Offline QED

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I can buy that. Although there still seems to be some belief that the conspiracy lacks ability to remove/prevent what negative outcome might happen. An organization this effective at controlling populations (and their thoughts) seem capable of this to me. But it simply may not be worth their effort to do so, as you say.

Certainly if FES becomes influential enough, then the threat to your movement increases as well, I would imagine.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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I can buy that. Although there still seems to be some belief that the conspiracy lacks ability to remove/prevent what negative outcome might happen. An organization this effective at controlling populations (and their thoughts) seem capable of this to me. But it simply may not be worth their effort to do so, as you say.
I can't really talk about the ability of a foe which I (personally, not to be confused with the views of others) consider to be hypothetical at best. But I can talk about past cases of rich and influential people or even governments trying to shut down information that would otherwise garner little attention. The media like a martyr.

Certainly if FES becomes influential enough, then the threat to your movement increases as well, I would imagine.
Possibly. It depends on how the Flat Earth movement shapes as it grows. I don't know if you follow the FE'ers on Twitter, for example, but some of them are fairly extreme in their views other than FE, and they often conflate out movement with other unsavoury stuff. If these groups were to come out on top, then I imagine a more influential FE movement at large would much more quickly be viewed as a threat.
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The media like a martyr.

But the media surely is part of the machine that participates in the conspiracy.  Control the media, control the narrative, control the masses.  As for others that seek to expose the government's secrets, look to Snowden, look to Assange - exiled, chased, arrested, silenced.  This is just the reaction from one government, one country.  Now add all governments of all countries of the world.  Now add all private industries that have a huge monetary vested interest in keeping the round earth myth going.  These countries and governments and industries own the Internet backbone and administrate the DNS servers, they are the man in the middle.  Sure your website uses https, great its traffic is encrypted.  However if I own the routers in between, I can set up the SSL handshaking between both endpoints and see all the traffic in between (or modify or block the traffic).  It doesn't matter how many websites you put up, they own your data packets, they own your DNS records.  Of course the simpler method is to just attack the messenger and send a message to the followers.  Plant phony evidence, arrest and imprison, or get physical.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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But the media surely is part of the machine that participates in the conspiracy.  Control the media, control the narrative, control the masses.
I see no reason to believe this, given the media's involvement in the cracking of every conspiracy that has been cracked to this day.

As for others that seek to expose the government's secrets, look to Snowden, look to Assange - exiled, chased, arrested, silenced.
Silenced? Last I checked, Snowden is pretty active and vocal, and Assange is receiving extensive media coverage, largely focusing on his supporters.

Now add all private industries that have a huge monetary vested interest in keeping the round earth myth going.
Nobody has any vested interest in "keeping the round Earth myth going". You may want to familiarise yourself with the basics before trying to argue the subject.

These countries and governments and industries own the Internet backbone and administrate the DNS servers, they are the man in the middle.
That's not how any of this works, and I already discussed the ineffectiveness of DNS poisoning.

Sure your website uses https, great its traffic is encrypted.
HTTPS has absolutely nothing to do with this.

However if I own the routers in between, I can set up the SSL handshaking between both endpoints and see all the traffic in between (or modify or block the traffic).
"the SSL handshaking" - lol.

Also, it's a good thing network traffic can be routed in many ways.

It doesn't matter how many websites you put up, they own your data packets, they own your DNS records.
I will once again point you to the current track record of how ineffective Internet censorship is. Throwing buzzwords (and getting them completely wrong) may work on someone with no interest in cybersecurity, but you've got the wrong guy for that strategy.

Of course the simpler method is to just attack the messenger and send a message to the followers.  Plant phony evidence, arrest and imprison, or get physical.
Of course, this has also already been discussed.
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Silenced? Last I checked, Snowden is pretty active and vocal, and Assange is receiving extensive media coverage, largely focusing on his supporters.
My only point by bringing up Snowden and Assange is that they are primary examples of where ONE government takes actions against the whistle blowers without fear of turning them into martyrs and they were forced to run.  Where would they run to if ALL governments were out to get them?

Nobody has any vested interest in "keeping the round Earth myth going".
Each SpaceX Falcon 9 launch costs an average of $57 million.  I would say that ANY company in the space industry has a substantial vested interest.

I will once again point you to the current track record of how ineffective Internet censorship is.
Also, it's a good thing network traffic can be routed in many ways.
One country alone might find it challenging to effectively censor Internet traffic.  But if ALL countries are in on the policing, this changes everything.  All network traffic, ALL routes would be passing through their policed routers.

HTTPS has absolutely nothing to do with this.
"the SSL handshaking" - lol.
My only point in bringing up HTTPS and SLL handshaking is that this just goes to show how you might think you are secure in your communications, but with a man-in-the-middle you are not; and you certainly are not when ALL countries are in on the policing and control ALL the middle ground.
https://www.ssl.com/article/ssl-tls-handshake-overview/
https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-the-nsa-and-your-boss-can-intercept-and-break-ssl/

Here is an example why this matters Pete.  So the next time you logon to this forum using HTTPS, a global conspirator watches you enter your unencrypted password.  Now he assumes your identity, logs onto this site, changes your password and takes over control of the boards.  Next he posts a retraction, "the earth is round".  He posts other lies and then uploads illegal materials that get you arrested.

The entire point of my post is this, if ALL countries are in on this elaborate hoax, they certainly COULD take measures to censor your message and certainly WOULD have the capabilities to be quite effective if they wanted to act together.  I think you are entirely naive about the level of power a global totalitarian regime could wield against you.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 01:20:32 PM by Voltare »

I am eager for your reply to my last response Pete.  Every time you open your mouth on this subject, you assist in casting doubt on the presumption that a conspiracy even exists.

Governments are notoriously bad at Internet censorship, largely thanks to the design of the Internet. Even a China-style firewall is relatively easily bypassed for now. A DDoS attack would be especially ineffective, since most of our content is available from more than one source.
I see no reason to believe this, given the media's involvement in the cracking of every conspiracy that has been cracked to this day.
I will once again point you to the current track record of how ineffective Internet censorship is.

You argue for the inability and ineffectiveness of governments and their agencies to suppress a message, to censor speech, to silence the whistleblower.  You expound on the inherit design of the Internet to broadcast the message and liberate the truth.  You advocate for the media's resilience in exposing conspiracies.
 
And yet, not one person from inside the global conspiracy in all of history since the advent of the great lie has come forward.  No data leaks to the press, no pictures of the real flat earth, no mentions of the ice wall guardians.  No internal memos, no confidential documents, no conspiracy emails, no recorded phone calls, no undercover video, no original un-doctored photos or video.  Not one peep, not one leak, not one brave soul from within the inner circle has managed to utter one whisper to expose this mega deception, this colossal fiction!  Surely some poor serf inside the global cabal must be feeling the huge moral dilemma of having to constantly lie, endlessly doctor photos and continuously manipulate the truth.  And to what end?

The global conspiracy theory is the weakest argument flat earthers espouse.  It stretches the bounds of plausibility far beyond the break point.  You should give it up. 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 02:23:59 PM by Voltare »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Why would I "give up" something that I'm widely known to be quite skeptical of? Or course, your assumptions about the conspiracy are ridiculous and designed to blow it out of proportion, and that is still worth challenging. Your entire and repeated point is that such a conspiracy would have to be huge and all-powerful. This couldn't be farther from the truth.

As for your alleged lack of leaks: please at least familiarise yourself with the basics before posting here.

Also, please never speak about cybersecurity again. You don't have the faintest of clues. I already told you HTTPS is irrelevant, and I meant it. If *you* think HTTPS makes you secure, it's time to pick up a book. We don't, because we're not tech-illiterate.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 11:31:19 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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If *you* think HTTPS makes you secure, it's time to pick up a book.
Perhaps instead of being insulting and claiming intellectual superiority, you should do some reading yourself because it is evident you didn’t read my previous post:

My only point in bringing up HTTPS…goes to show how you might think you are secure…but you are not.
When I state you might think you are secure…but you are not, which part don’t you understand?  My posts, my URLs, my examples were all making the argument that HTTPS is NOT secure when there is a man in the middle.  If you have a problem with that argument, please do school me with your cybersecurity "expertise".


Why would I "give up" something that I'm widely known to be quite skeptical of?
Sorry, I freely admit that I have not read the Pete Svarrior Personal Beliefs FAQ yet.  Prior to originating this post it wasn’t widely known to me that you were skeptical of the conspiracy.  Also the post was directed at all flat earthers, not just you.


Or course, your assumptions about the conspiracy are ridiculous and designed to blow it out of proportion, and that is still worth challenging. Your entire and repeated point is that such a conspiracy would have to be huge and all-powerful. This couldn't be farther from the truth.
Now we are getting somewhere.  Yes spot on, my assumption about the conspiracy is that it was huge and global. By all means please do bring me closer to the truth.  I cannot read the Flat Earther’s mind and your FAQ certainly doesn’t detail the scope of the conspiracy.  I would love to know to what extent flat earthers believe the conspiracy entails.  I would also love to know what makes you skeptical of the conspiracy theory. 

From the Flat Earth Wiki there is a “Space Travel Conspiracy”.  Just using Wikipedia as a reference, “As of 2018, 72 different government space agencies are in existence; 14 of those have launch capability. Six government space agencies … have full launch capabilities."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_space_agencies

So are all 72 space agencies in existence part of the conspiracy, is it just the 14 that have launch capability, or is it just the 6 who have full launch capabilities?  Would countries without space agencies be in the conspiracy or not?  If not, why aren't these countries calling BS on the space fakers?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 03:13:23 PM by Voltare »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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When I state you might think you are secure…but you are not, which part don’t you understand?
The part where you say I "might" think something that I made abundantly clear I don't think, numerous times. HTTPS does not make traffic here "secure" in any meaningful sense. Your repeated attempts at forcing this are bad, and you should feel bad.

From the Flat Earth Wiki there is a “Space Travel Conspiracy”.  Just using Wikipedia as a reference, “As of 2018, 72 different government space agencies are in existence; 14 of those have launch capability. Six government space agencies … have full launch capabilities."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_space_agencies
Oh, okay, so you've just decided what others believe. Again.

This is a waste of my time, I won't make this mistake again.
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The part where you say I "might" think something that I made abundantly clear I don't think, numerous times. HTTPS does not make traffic here "secure" in any meaningful sense. Your repeated attempts at forcing this are bad, and you should feel bad.

I do feel bad, there has been a miscommunication.  I’m seeking understanding of flat earth thinking and you seem to be the most vocal.  When I stated you might think you are secure…but you are not,  I meant you in the general sense, not you Pete Svarrior specifically.  People might think they are secure with HTTPS.  You have made it abundantly clear that you are not in the category of people who think that way.  I was just defending my understanding of HTTPS as you were accusing me with  "throwing buzzwords (and getting them completely wrong)",  not having “the faintest of clues”, and being “tech-illiterate”.

Oh, okay, so you've just decided what others believe. Again.
Quite the contrary.  Do you read anything that I write?
“I would love to know to what extent flat earthers believe the conspiracy entails.  I would also love to know what makes you skeptical of the conspiracy theory.” 
I quoted the wiki “there is a Space Travel Conspiracy” and asked questions for clarification implying I don’t have any idea what you (yourself and other Flat Earthers) believe exactly.

This is a waste of my time, I won't make this mistake again.
We can certainly call this thread closed if you like, I’m cool with that.  If you care to make one more response to salvage it in a meaningful and productive way that could be a benefit to all, please consider replying to this (and I promise no follow up reply) – I don’t know what you (Pete Svarrior) believe about the conspiracy, I don’t know what other flat earthers believe about the conspiracy.  I can only glean what is stated on the Wiki “there is a Space Travel Conspiracy” but that isn’t much to go on.  I’m inviting you and others to expound on what the conspiracy is, who is involved, and to what extent.  Thanks for your time.

[EDIT]On second thought, call this thread closed.  I'll ask the question in a new thread.[/EDIT]
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 06:52:08 PM by Voltare »