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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2019, 06:42:37 PM »
You are proposing multiple illusions.

You are claiming that the earth is rotating, when we visibly see the sun moving.

You are claiming that the earth is a sphere with a far away sun dropping behind it, when we clearly see that the earth is flat.

Responding to claims with alternate claims, surely?
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Offline stack

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Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2019, 06:51:50 PM »
You are proposing multiple illusions.

Incorrect.

You are claiming that the earth is rotating, when we visibly see the sun moving.

Technically, no I'm not.

You are claiming that the earth is a sphere with a far away sun dropping behind it, when we clearly see that the earth is flat.

Technically, no I'm not. I could just as easily be claiming that the earth is flat, the sun is close but that it drops below the plane for 12 hours a day.  All I know is that it's dropping behind something. It sure isn't moving away from me, shrinking and disappearing into a vanishing point dot because that's not what we observe 365 days a year.

You are claiming that we are seeing the sun go below the horizon, when we visibly see it go into the horizon.

It's going somewhere where it hides itself for 12 hours then pops up behind me. I don't know what go into the horizon is even supposed to mean. Is it trapped under ground for 12 hours each day for each observer?

You are claiming that light travels in straight lines over long distances -- a complete imagination, without evidence, and contradicts our experience that straight lines do not exist in nature and that elements in motion are always perturbed.

Neither here nor there. The sun magically disappears for 12 hours 7/365. FE doesn't know where our sun goes. RE does.

All of it is either illusion or unjustified to get your argument that no illusion is occuring.

When FE figures out how something as ever-present and simple as a sunset works on a planar earth, kudos to the movement. In the mean time, FE has no idea how what can be observed every day by everyone on the planet can be explained. RE does know how and no illusions required like "atmoplane projections", made up "laws of perspective", magic magnification.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2019, 07:54:15 PM »
You are claiming that light travels in straight lines over long distances -- a complete imagination, without evidence, and contradicts our experience that straight lines do not exist in nature and that elements in motion are always perturbed.
If light doesn't travel in straight lines over long distances, then by what standard of straightness are you claiming that the earth is flat?  It seems that you just discredited visual observations, so what else is there?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 07:55:56 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2019, 07:58:30 PM »
You are claiming that we are seeing the sun go below the horizon, when we visibly see it go into the horizon.

The former can be easily defined, and is self-evident.

As the Earth rotates, the observer is moved on the surface to a point where the distant object, the Sun, moves from being in his visible sky, to the point where it is hidden from view by the ground beneath and in front of him. On a regular and predictable cycle, the Sun reappears on the opposite horizon, moving from being hidden to being back in view again. "Below" the horizon can be expressed as "behind" the horizon.

I have no idea, absolutely no idea, what you mean by "into the horizon". What do you mean? The Sun is absorbed into the Earth? It melts to become part of the Earth? It moves into a slot in the Earth that nobody, anywhere, has ever seen?

What ARE you talking about?
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2019, 10:53:01 PM »
I don't see the round earth rotating into a sun. I see the light of the sun setting into a flat earth. If we are honest, that is about all we see.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2019, 11:24:55 PM »
I don't see the round earth rotating into a sun.

Nobody said the Earth "rotates into a sun" except you.
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline stack

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Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2019, 11:25:26 PM »
I don't see the round earth rotating into a sun. I see the light of the sun setting into a flat earth. If we are honest, that is about all we see.

This is the best, most comprehensive, and only FE explanation of a sunset yet, basically: Everyday it gets dark.

Fortunately RE has an actual explanation that is predictive and can tell us where and when for any observer on the planet such an occurrence will take place. And RE also doesn't simply refer to lightness and darkness, but also to the orb in the sky that produces the light you mention. Rather odd for FE to leave that bit out of the explanation.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2019, 10:16:28 AM »
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Thanks.

Now the entirety of your point is predictably shown as purely subjective.

Yes, the points I've made so far have been subjective. The post I was originally replying to was subjective, and your comments have also been entirely subjective. I really don't see how that lets you sidestep the discussion. If you'd like to make a meaningful contribution to the discussion instead of getting in a quick dig, that would be great.

Can we do a thought experiment? Image a ball rolling across your field of vision such that at some point it rolls behind a wall, and is hidden by the wall. Now repeat this, except some refraction (or whatever, the mechanism doesn't really matter) means that the ball appears to be 1 degree behind its "true" position. Would this meaningfully change any of the qualitative behaviour of the ball being hidden by the wall? I don't think it would. The ball will still disappear leading-side first, it will still be hidden at the same rate etc. The only difference would be that it happens slightly later.
Do you think this is meaningfully different to the sunset case?
The quality is simply due to perception of the individual viewer is my point.

Any quantitative change, as I wrote earlier, truly does affect quality.

What you perceive as negligible could appear as having more substantial impact to another.

That is not a dig.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2019, 12:10:57 PM »
Can we do a thought experiment? Image a ball rolling across your field of vision such that at some point it rolls behind a wall, and is hidden by the wall. Now repeat this, except some refraction (or whatever, the mechanism doesn't really matter) means that the ball appears to be 1 degree behind its "true" position. Would this meaningfully change any of the qualitative behaviour of the ball being hidden by the wall? I don't think it would. The ball will still disappear leading-side first, it will still be hidden at the same rate etc. The only difference would be that it happens slightly later.
Do you think this is meaningfully different to the sunset case?

The quality is simply due to perception of the individual viewer is my point.

Any quantitative change, as I wrote earlier, truly does affect quality.

What you perceive as negligible could appear as having more substantial impact to another.

That is not a dig.

So, the quality differences can be due to - individual viewer location, individual viewer's eyesight clarity (short-sight, long-sight, glaucoma), and ... anything else?

The ball is either behind the wall or not for each viewer, and depending on viewer location, will disappear at different times depending on location, but for each viewer, there will come a point where it is no longer in view. Variations in timing or perception will not change this.
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline markjo

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Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2019, 02:07:46 PM »
I don't see the round earth rotating into a sun. I see the light of the sun setting into a flat earth. If we are honest, that is about all we see.
Tom, do you see the sun setting in front of the horizon or behind the horizon?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Salt Lake City Observations - Need Help
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2019, 10:00:13 PM »
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The quality is simply due to perception of the individual viewer is my point.

Any quantitative change, as I wrote earlier, truly does affect quality.

What you perceive as negligible could appear as having more substantial impact to another.

That is not a dig.

Qualitative does not imply subjective.
As an example: back to my ball-behind-the-wall thought experiment. As the ball is rolling, you could replace the observer with an imaginary "ball detector", that can tell you objective facts about what happens to the ball such as "is the ball in my field of view?", or "is the ball partially hidden?". If you just had this detector, you'd see that the ball is visible, then partially hidden, and then totally hidden as it rolls behind a wall. It gives you no quantitative information about the ball, but its results are both qualitative and objective.

Now take what I've said across the past few comments and apply it to the sunset, and come up with your own conclusion: does refraction alter the qualitative behavior of a sunset? Personally I can see no way in which refraction of a fraction of a degree would cause a qualitative change in the sunset. If you disagree, I would love you to tell me why.

Sidenote: large qualitative changes can easily cause quantitative changes. If we go back to the thought experiment, you could change the velocity of the ball to zero, which would certainly be a qualitative change.
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