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Offline QED

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Fauxcault pendulum
« on: April 11, 2019, 12:51:40 PM »
There is a reasonable reply to FP criticisms made in the link below. I have read it and it appears accurate.

This serves as a synopsis of rebuttals against those who claim FP are either fraudulent or incorrectly interpreted.

The synopsis is expository rather than syllogistic.

https://www.quora.com/How-do-flat-Earthers-explain-the-Foucault-pendulum
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2019, 01:18:30 PM »
There is a page on the device at https://wiki.tfes.org/Foucault_Pendulum

We are told in a museum instillation guide to spend several days adjusting it until we get the desired results:

Quote
We read the following from an installation guide:

http://www.academypendulums.com/pdf/Mark2FoucaultInstallation.pdf

“ Pay close attention to the photo beams alignment. This adjustment can effect the Ball’s precession around the pit. It may require a couple of days to determine if precession is operating properly. Precession is a function of the Earths rotation. ”

We are instructed to spend several days adjusting the alignment of the photo beams, which affects the pendulum's precession, an element which is supposedly a function of the earth's rotation, until we have determined that the "precession is operating properly"
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 05:41:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline QED

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 01:37:49 PM »
We are told in a museum instillation guide to spend several days adjusting it until we get the desired results:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Foucault_Pendulum

Quote
We read the following from an installation guide:

http://www.academypendulums.com/pdf/Mark2FoucaultInstallation.pdf

“ Pay close attention to the photo beams alignment. This adjustment can effect the Ball’s precession around the pit. It may require a couple of days to determine if precession is operating properly. Precession is a function of the Earths rotation. ”

We are instructed to spend several days adjusting the alignment of the photo beams, which affects the pendulum's precession, an element which is supposedly a function of the earth's rotation, until we have determined that the "precession is operating properly"

Ahh yes, I see you had a brief glimpse into the detail, rigor, and effort usually needed to adhere to modern scientific standards.

The trick for you Tom, is to begin learning how to apply rigorous standards. That will take some unlearning on your part, because presently you mentally compartmentalise those efforts into the fictional category: “smoke and mirrors that scientists and lizard people use to bamboozle regular folks into thinking science is real.”

Ironically, by avoiding these methods you become MORE vulnerable to bamboozlement, dishonesty, and charlantry. Not less.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2019, 06:45:38 AM »
Modifying the alignment until you achieve your desired result and then passing it off as a demonstration of the earth's rotation is called fraud, QED.

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2019, 08:04:11 AM »
Quote
We read the following from an installation guide:

http://www.academypendulums.com/pdf/Mark2FoucaultInstallation.pdf

“ Pay close attention to the photo beams alignment. This adjustment can effect the Ball’s precession around the pit. It may require a couple of days to determine if precession is operating properly. Precession is a function of the Earths rotation. ”

We are instructed to spend several days adjusting the alignment of the photo beams, which affects the pendulum's precession, an element which is supposedly a function of the earth's rotation, until we have determined that the "precession is operating properly"

You left out the preceding two sentences from the above quote:

"It is important for the photo beam adjustments to be made accurately for power to be applied equally in all directions to the armature. Two pairs of photo beams trigger the magnet’s power as the cable swings through the center."

This is the exact opposite of what you are alleging. It is crucial to calibrate the photo beams that trigger the swings "for power to be applied equally in all directions." If the power isn't applied equally then you don't have an unbiased swing.

Modifying the alignment until you achieve your desired result and then passing it off as a demonstration of the earth's rotation is called fraud, QED.

Since when are you against calibrating an observational instrument? You seemed to be calibration crazy when it came to talking about water level tubes just a few threads ago.

And as mentioned above the alignment calibration is to make sure the power is applied equally in all directions so it doesn't influence the swing direction.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline QED

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2019, 02:29:25 PM »
Modifying the alignment until you achieve your desired result and then passing it off as a demonstration of the earth's rotation is called fraud, QED.

Not in general, no. In science, we call this calibration. And in this case, the desired result is to remove any impact that powering the device has on its azimuthal rotation.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2019, 07:58:47 PM »
Quote
We read the following from an installation guide:

http://www.academypendulums.com/pdf/Mark2FoucaultInstallation.pdf

“ Pay close attention to the photo beams alignment. This adjustment can effect the Ball’s precession around the pit. It may require a couple of days to determine if precession is operating properly. Precession is a function of the Earths rotation. ”

We are instructed to spend several days adjusting the alignment of the photo beams, which affects the pendulum's precession, an element which is supposedly a function of the earth's rotation, until we have determined that the "precession is operating properly"

You left out the preceding two sentences from the above quote:

"It is important for the photo beam adjustments to be made accurately for power to be applied equally in all directions to the armature. Two pairs of photo beams trigger the magnet’s power as the cable swings through the center."

This is the exact opposite of what you are alleging. It is crucial to calibrate the photo beams that trigger the swings "for power to be applied equally in all directions." If the power isn't applied equally then you don't have an unbiased swing.

Modifying the alignment until you achieve your desired result and then passing it off as a demonstration of the earth's rotation is called fraud, QED.

Since when are you against calibrating an observational instrument? You seemed to be calibration crazy when it came to talking about water level tubes just a few threads ago.

And as mentioned above the alignment calibration is to make sure the power is applied equally in all directions so it doesn't influence the swing direction.

The word "calibrate" doesn't even appear in that section. You are just making things up.

The sections say that we need to spend several days aligning something that affects the precession but makes no reference to "calibration" or how we are to calibrate it .
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 08:36:00 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline QED

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2019, 09:03:16 PM »
Quote
We read the following from an installation guide:

http://www.academypendulums.com/pdf/Mark2FoucaultInstallation.pdf

“ Pay close attention to the photo beams alignment. This adjustment can effect the Ball’s precession around the pit. It may require a couple of days to determine if precession is operating properly. Precession is a function of the Earths rotation. ”

We are instructed to spend several days adjusting the alignment of the photo beams, which affects the pendulum's precession, an element which is supposedly a function of the earth's rotation, until we have determined that the "precession is operating properly"

You left out the preceding two sentences from the above quote:

"It is important for the photo beam adjustments to be made accurately for power to be applied equally in all directions to the armature. Two pairs of photo beams trigger the magnet’s power as the cable swings through the center."

This is the exact opposite of what you are alleging. It is crucial to calibrate the photo beams that trigger the swings "for power to be applied equally in all directions." If the power isn't applied equally then you don't have an unbiased swing.

Modifying the alignment until you achieve your desired result and then passing it off as a demonstration of the earth's rotation is called fraud, QED.

Since when are you against calibrating an observational instrument? You seemed to be calibration crazy when it came to talking about water level tubes just a few threads ago.

And as mentioned above the alignment calibration is to make sure the power is applied equally in all directions so it doesn't influence the swing direction.

The word "calibrate" doesn't even appear in that section. You are just making things up.

The sections say that we need to spend several days aligning something that affects the precession but makes no reference to "calibration" or how we are to calibrate it .

What they are doing is ensuring that the power mechanism - the magnets - only serve to produce radial thrust. The reason why it takes several days is they want to be extra careful that they are not inadvertently introducing a minute angular thrust that would affect (or mimick) the coriolis motion.

Actually, I may agree with you on one aspect of this - calibrate may not really be the correct word. Usually, one calibrates a device to ensure a proper “zero” or baseline is established and likewise appropriate scale is obtained. For example, one has to calibrate a thermometer otherwise you just have mercury expanding in a tube due to thermal expansion.

In a manner of speaking, the pendulum is being calibrated in order to measure the coriolis effect. But yes, it is not exactly the strict usage of that word.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Offline stack

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2019, 07:41:33 AM »
Quote
We read the following from an installation guide:

http://www.academypendulums.com/pdf/Mark2FoucaultInstallation.pdf

“ Pay close attention to the photo beams alignment. This adjustment can effect the Ball’s precession around the pit. It may require a couple of days to determine if precession is operating properly. Precession is a function of the Earths rotation. ”

We are instructed to spend several days adjusting the alignment of the photo beams, which affects the pendulum's precession, an element which is supposedly a function of the earth's rotation, until we have determined that the "precession is operating properly"

You left out the preceding two sentences from the above quote:

"It is important for the photo beam adjustments to be made accurately for power to be applied equally in all directions to the armature. Two pairs of photo beams trigger the magnet’s power as the cable swings through the center."

This is the exact opposite of what you are alleging. It is crucial to calibrate the photo beams that trigger the swings "for power to be applied equally in all directions." If the power isn't applied equally then you don't have an unbiased swing.

Modifying the alignment until you achieve your desired result and then passing it off as a demonstration of the earth's rotation is called fraud, QED.

Since when are you against calibrating an observational instrument? You seemed to be calibration crazy when it came to talking about water level tubes just a few threads ago.

And as mentioned above the alignment calibration is to make sure the power is applied equally in all directions so it doesn't influence the swing direction.

The word "calibrate" doesn't even appear in that section. You are just making things up.

The sections say that we need to spend several days aligning something that affects the precession but makes no reference to "calibration" or how we are to calibrate it .

I’m not making anything up. I used the word calibrate as in adjusting the photo beams to make sure power is applied equally in all directions to the armature.

Much like you did in reference to water level tubes:

What accuracy? The device needs to be able to be calibrated before one can say how accurate or close the method is.

Much like all water tubes to be at equal height the calibration here is similar: Making sure the power is supplied equally so as not to interfere in the instruments measurement of the precession predicted for its latitude.

The same company that manufactures these types of pendulums, Academy Pendulum, and from whose manual you quote-mined, misinterpreted and put in the wiki, states that when trouble shooting:

5. No progress or progression stops at one point
A. Check for armature to magnet interference. Adjust cable as needed
B. Check for leveling on the magnet
C. On old units check for O-ring damage on the armature or safety hub
D. Check for cable damage at the pivot

All of which is in reference to making sure the pendulum moves freely. Not an adjustment to force a specific progression.

The point is these pendulums progress according to their latitude in a predictable manner. American Pendulum has over 100 installations since the 50’s in universities, schools, & museums around the world, at varying latitudes, meaning, as the manual states: "At the North pole it will make one revolution every 24HRS, while at Florida’s latitude it may take up to 48HRS.”

Do you have any evidence that these devices are somehow manipulated to exhibit the progression around the pit that is in lockstep with what is expected for a given latitude? 
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2019, 11:15:09 AM »
Modifying the alignment until you achieve your desired result and then passing it off as a demonstration of the earth's rotation is called fraud, QED.
Correct. But this is not what is happening here and cherry picking quotes to imply that is what is happening is also fraudulent.
Right of the start of the document it says:

"It is important for the photo beam adjustments to be made accurately for power to be applied equally in all directions to the armature"

(my emphasis).

It's clear that the adjustments are being made so that any progression is due only to the rotation of the earth and not because of any force applied to the pendulum to keep it moving.

This is your confirmation bias shining through again. If there were no procession then you'd be the first to say this was proof of a non-rotating earth and would apply no scrutiny to the experiment.
But because procession is observed you declare the experiment fraudulent with no basis other than cherry picking some quotes which are actually about the exact opposite of which you claim.

It's very deceptive, if you're doing it deliberately.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2019, 06:21:57 PM »
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Right of the start of the document it says:

"It is important for the photo beam adjustments to be made accurately for power to be applied equally in all directions to the armature"

Your statement of "Right of the start of the document" kills your argument.

Then, after that in the document, it says to spend several days adjusting it until one has determined that the "precession is operating properly":

“Pay close attention to the photo beams alignment. This adjustment can effect the Ball’s precession around the pit. It may require a couple of days to determine if precession is operating properly. Precession is a function of the Earths rotation.”

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2019, 07:08:22 PM »
Yes, the adjustment can affect precession, which is why it's so important to properly adjust the photo beams so as to not affect the precession.  It's like leveling a pool table so that shots are not affected by the table not being level.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2019, 10:32:32 PM »
In my experience, the time it takes to calibrate equipment is usually several time periods longer than the motion one is trying to measure. I’ve calibrated, for example, cavendish experiments that required several oscillations to determine if any unwanted transcients were operative.

Hence, the report that it took them several days to measure the periodic motion of 1 day makes a great deal of sense to me, and in fact is what i would have predicted. 
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2019, 12:01:21 AM »
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Right of the start of the document it says:

"It is important for the photo beam adjustments to be made accurately for power to be applied equally in all directions to the armature"

Your statement of "Right of the start of the document" kills your argument.

Then, after that in the document, it says to spend several days adjusting it until one has determined that the "precession is operating properly":

“Pay close attention to the photo beams alignment. This adjustment can effect the Ball’s precession around the pit. It may require a couple of days to determine if precession is operating properly. Precession is a function of the Earths rotation.”

Let's get specific here. Is your contention that when the manual states, "It is important for the photo beam adjustments to be made accurately for power to be applied equally in all directions to the armature", that in actuality that is not what is intended? What is really occurring is that for the 100 or so installations around the world for this particular pendulum model they are somehow each dialing in the appropriate predicted procession for their latitude?

If so, can you provide evidence as to how to adjust the photo beams so that power is applied unequally and in a manner where the latitudinal procession of the device's location is exactly in line with what is predicted?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Fauxcault pendulum
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2019, 10:52:56 AM »
Your statement of "Right of the start of the document" kills your argument.
It doesn't matter where in the document it is, the statement

"for power to be applied equally in all directions to the armature"

kills yours. It's made clear that the adjustments are to be made to make sure it's not the power causing the procession.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline da8ar

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A Question
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2019, 05:00:12 PM »
Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I was attracted by the present discussion on Foucault's pendulum, and I can't really understand if anybody here is actually speaking about something you ever tried or experienced first hand.

I am a physics major, I helped building a Foucault's pendulum already in high school, and I have a pretty good idea on how to explain its motion with sufficient accuracy independently on where you set its initial position. Of course, if you want the sharp figures one typically sees in the books, you have to be careful on initial conditions. Also, clearly, you may desire to build it in order to minimize friction (and air viscosity) as much as possible: typically the pendulum has to be long and massive, and with something like good rolling bearing at the top.

But in any case its motion is described with perfect accuracy by Newton's equations. More precisely, by the equations of a constrained mass (pendulum) which moves in a non inertial frame of reference in the presence of friction.

The fact that the frame of reference is non inertial is due to the rotation of the earth, or Coriolis effect.

Apparently, there is someone on this forum that does not agree with this. This is why I am writing.

I am writing here because I have a question.

Are you aware of any alternative theory that allows one to predict the trajectory followed by a pendulum built with a very small friction coefficient? With the expression "predict the trajectory" I mean the possibility of telling which position in space will be occupied by the pendulum at any observed times. With "time" I mean the usual notion provided by an ordinary clock. With "position in space" I mean 3 real numbers denoting coordinates in the three dimensional space where one is supposed to find the pendulum at the prescribed instant of time.