[AlphaCentauri]

Hello everybody.

I have been perusing for a while now and I'm extremely curious about this entire movement. I have been trying to keep my mind as open as possible as I always do towards new and interesting things but this particular argument, although I've tried to repeatedly understand it, I cannot comprehend.
I throw this challenge to you, hoping that someone will take their time to reply: convince me that the Earth is indeed flat. I'd like to see evidence, whether scientific, mathematical, physical or simply observational, that we are indeed living on a flat surface.
I would also like to play the role of the devil's advocate and attempt to view the counter arguments and see which one provides the most logical answer.

I will start with a very simple mathematical fact (please correct me if I have interpreted the flat earth theory incorrectly): if indeed the Earth is flat and the edges are a tall ice wall, one has to ask why nobody has ever documented it before, via drone or helicopter or simply going there on a ship and taking photographs. A counter argument here would be that NASA or the UN patrol the seas regularly to intercept anybody who attempts to cross too far, so let's try and prove that there are actual ships out there patrolling

1 - The distance between the North Pole and South America is about 16'200 km. Let's very generously round that to 16'000 km for simplicity's sake. That gives us a circumference of about 100'000 km. That means that whoever patrols the borders would have to patrol one hundred thousand kilometers of freezing cold ocean regularly and never let even a small drone or a tiny boat get past.

2 - Let's assume that it took 1 boat every kilometer to accomplish such a task. We'd be then looking at about 10'000 boats. So whoever is patrolling the borders has ten thousand ships regularly patrolling, which means ten thousand ships with crews on board.

2.5 - Each of these ships would have, say, 20 crew members (again, very generously rounding it). That's 200'000 people. Two hundred thousand people who regularly man these ships. Who are they? Where are they from? Do none of them ever defect?

3 - These ships would require constant maintenance because, as we all know, freezing cold temperatures take a big toll on ships. They would also require an insane amount of fuel for heating and for regular activity. Also all the food the crew members need to eat.

4 - These ships and these people could never possibly work 24/7 every day of the week. At some point, ships need to come and go for repairs. People would have to come home for holidays or simply to see their families. That means another ship has to immediately replace the ones returning, which means more people on these new ships. With what resources and/or shipyards could we ever build so, so, so many ships?

I hope I didn't come off as ironic or arrogant or condescending. I meant none of the sort. I am very genuinely attempting to connect with you all and to understand your view of our Universe. After all, I live here too

[iamcpc]

Hello everybody.

I have been perusing for a while now and I'm extremely curious about this entire movement. I have been trying to keep my mind as open as possible as I always do towards new and interesting things but this particular argument, although I've tried to repeatedly understand it, I cannot comprehend.
I throw this challenge to you, hoping that someone will take their time to reply: convince me that the Earth is indeed flat. I'd like to see evidence, whether scientific, mathematical, physical or simply observational, that we are indeed living on a flat surface.
I would also like to play the role of the devil's advocate and attempt to view the counter arguments and see which one provides the most logical answer.

I will start with a very simple mathematical fact (please correct me if I have interpreted the flat earth theory incorrectly): if indeed the Earth is flat and the edges are a tall ice wall, one has to ask why nobody has ever documented it before, via drone or helicopter or simply going there on a ship and taking photographs. A counter argument here would be that NASA or the UN patrol the seas regularly to intercept anybody who attempts to cross too far, so let's try and prove that there are actual ships out there patrolling

1 - The distance between the North Pole and South America is about 16'200 km. Let's very generously round that to 16'000 km for simplicity's sake. That gives us a circumference of about 100'000 km. That means that whoever patrols the borders would have to patrol one hundred thousand kilometers of freezing cold ocean regularly and never let even a small drone or a tiny boat get past.

2 - Let's assume that it took 1 boat every kilometer to accomplish such a task. We'd be then looking at about 10'000 boats. So whoever is patrolling the borders has ten thousand ships regularly patrolling, which means ten thousand ships with crews on board.

2.5 - Each of these ships would have, say, 20 crew members (again, very generously rounding it). That's 200'000 people. Two hundred thousand people who regularly man these ships. Who are they? Where are they from? Do none of them ever defect?

3 - These ships would require constant maintenance because, as we all know, freezing cold temperatures take a big toll on ships. They would also require an insane amount of fuel for heating and for regular activity. Also all the food the crew members need to eat.

4 - These ships and these people could never possibly work 24/7 every day of the week. At some point, ships need to come and go for repairs. People would have to come home for holidays or simply to see their families. That means another ship has to immediately replace the ones returning, which means more people on these new ships. With what resources and/or shipyards could we ever build so, so, so many ships?

I hope I didn't come off as ironic or arrogant or condescending. I meant none of the sort. I am very genuinely attempting to connect with you all and to understand your view of our Universe. After all, I live here too

You are talking about small subset of flat earth models. A flat disk model with a great ice wall. There are many models which don't have an ice wall.

Even within that model you are talking about a sub model in which there are boats preventing people from reaching the ice wall. Maybe it's too cold at the ice wall and ships can't go there. That's why no one has been to the ice wall.
Maybe the ice wall is outside of the dome (in a sub model which has a dome) so you can't go there..
Maybe the ice wall is outside of the firmament (in a sub model which has a firmament) so you can't go there.


Even in the models which do have an ice wall which is not being blocked by a dome, firmament, or impassible weather/ocean conditions there are people who believe in this subset of flat disk models who think that we have been to the ice wall.

[AlphaCentauri]

I see. So let's assume all of these models to be true. Why can not a single person capture an image of these incredible weather conditions or impassable formations? Why can nobody actually "hit the dome" and record it?
In fact, why can't I just hop on a plane and fly straight towards the wall/dome/rocks/hurricane/edge?

Thank you

[Mysfit]

I see. So let's assume all of these models to be true.

That can't be done, the ones illustrated earlier are different.

In fact, why can't I just hop on a plane and fly straight towards the wall/dome/rocks/hurricane/edge?

Thank you

Please do so. I like seeing the pictures of penguins (or seals if i got the wrong one).

[AlphaCentauri]

I assume you do not believe in the Flat Earth Theory. I'd really like an answer from somebody who does sustain its validity though. Why can I not fly towards it? And in the case answer is "because -they- won't let you", what would happen if I did? Would I get shot down? Would I get kidnapped? Would I get brainwashed? How is it possible then for them to stop drones? Private submarines? Etc...

[Mysfit]

I like flat theory as a thought experiment, so I’m not a flat earther. That being said, you are unlikely to get many bites with your... friendly(?) debate.

So, in answer to what will happen to you in your supersonic jet (go big or go home), you could:
Be shot down, brainwashed and stuff if it is being guarded, as in some theories.
Smash into the wall/dome/ice wall/other barrier, as in other theories.
Fall off the edge. If you’re being too clever.
Plus a near-infinite amount of other dangerous outcomes.

I’d recommend, for safety’s sake, to just take the pictures. I am looking forward to them, even though I am certain it won’t be happening.

I am unsure anything I can answer will convince you the earth is flat. Sorry.

[AlphaCentauri]

That's kind of the issue with the FET. Once a -real- debate pops up, nobody seems to want to talk about it. Everyone just disappears, it's incredible. I'd really, seriously and respectfully like to have a proper discourse with an intelligent flat earther, because I am genuinely curious as to how one could possibly disregard the incredible mountain of scientific evidence that the earth is a geoid. But nobody seems willing to talk about it.
It's ironic, really. The consensus is that flat earthers are on the "search for the truth" yet, when presented with the opportunity to truly search for it thorugh thinking and logical debate, they don't bother at all.

If we truly are brainwashed, then why are we the ones who truly attempt to understand this theory and the "lucid" flat earthers don't bother giving a second thought to real science?

I guess my quest to find the truth ends here, since nobody seems interested in actually talking about it... Shame. I'll keep it as a thought experiment as you do, though. It's fun to think about.

[iamcpc]

That's kind of the issue with the FET. Once a -real- debate pops up, nobody seems to want to talk about it. Everyone just disappears, it's incredible.

It's not that people have disappeared. Like myself they may not adhere to a very specific subset of flat earth models in which a laundry list of criteria is must be true:
1. The earth is a flat disk
2. there is an ice wall around the perimeter of the flat disk
3. the ice wall is inside of the dome
4. the ice wall is inside of the firmament
5. the ice wall has temperature, weather and ocean conditions which allow people to reach it.
6. There are people preventing other people from viewing the ice wall.

Sorry to say that the number of people who believe all of those conditions here is most likely very low which is why you are not getting much of a response.

how one could possibly disregard the incredible mountain of scientific evidence that the earth is a geoid.

1. Conformation Bias.
2. Research
3. Evidence

I have outlined several pieces of evidence in this post below:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=13802.msg184838#msg184838

But nobody seems willing to talk about it.

You literally have hundreds of people on this forum talking about it.

It's ironic, really. The consensus is that flat earthers are on the "search for the truth" yet, when presented with the opportunity to truly search for it thorugh thinking and logical debate, they don't bother at all.

you really painted yourself in a corner by limiting your discussion to a very specific set of criteria which eliminates a  majority of the flat earth community.

If we truly are brainwashed, then why are we the ones who truly attempt to understand this theory and the "lucid" flat earthers don't bother giving a second thought to real science?

brainwashed <> wrong or misunderstanding
Conformation bias <> brainwashed

In addition there is nothing "brainwashed" about saying maybe there is another explanation for these observations i'm making.

I guess my quest to find the truth ends here, since nobody seems interested in actually talking about it.

You have gotten many replies so far I don't know why you are saying that no one is talking about it.

[JCM]

IAMPC, that works both ways.  When criticism of FET are broad, then its supporters say the critic is not considering the myriad of models and needs to be more specific.  When critics are very specific in their analyzation of an aspect of FET, its supporters say the critic isn’t considering alternative models.  How are we to have a debate when the answer is the same?

This is why I think the FET supporters of this site and wiki should rule out some concepts and come to at least a general consensus about what they can support.  This is very easy to do.  Is the Sun/Moon near?  Is the Earth an infinite plane?  Is the Earth a dual Earth, monopole or bipolar?  Start there with easy ones and maybe never get to determining if there is a dome or not or a wall which is guarded or not as those are points of contention.  Then we can have a discussion about specific aspects of a general consensus of at least the bigger ideas then what we currently have which is untenable and generally a waste of time debate-wise.

[Mysfit]

This is why I think the FET supporters of this site and wiki should rule out one at least some concepts and come to at least a general consensus about what they can support.  This is very easy to do.  Is the Sun/Moon near?  Is the Earth an infinite plane?  Is the Earth a dual Earth, monopole or bipolar?  Start there with easy ones and maybe never get to determining if there is a dome or not or a wall which is guarded or not as those are points of contention.  Then we can have a discussion about specific aspects of a general consensus of at least the bigger ideas then what we currently have which is untenable and generally a waste of time debate-wise.

I am unsure that's allowed. I suggested a unified flat theory and it was moved to CN without reason.
I think FES and I both agree it would cause problems.

[QED]

Hi Mysfit and JCM,

I think it is relevant to consider our position. REers constantly mock FEers, and so it is natural to take a defensive or apprehensive stance. Hopefully, I might be able to assist you in your questions.

ON the topics of distances, there is a huge concern. Monopole FE models predict much vaster distances around the edges of the plane (southern hemisphere on globe) than what is claimed in a RE model. The reason this is an issue is that such distortions would not be limited to the scientific arena, and all sailors and pilots who traveled in the southern hemispheres should notice that their RE maps are simply wrong. They can't ALL be in on the conspiracy, and so we arrive at an impasse.

It is my personal view that RE maps are not entirely accurate, even the monopole version -- which seems to be the most championed. What I hope to achieve is the construction of a better mapping. To do this, I am proposing a novel approach:

Model the trajectories of the Sun across the sky from different locations on Earth. Since FEers are everywhere, we should be able to join together to aggregate resources. With these trajectories, and knowing the locations from which they were measured, accurate zetetic mapping can be deduced to identify proper distances. This reverse-engineering approach by-passes the impasse of the distance debate, and instead only uses the assumptions that the Earth is a plane and the Sun maintains an approximate constant distance away as it travels.

[inquisitive]

Hi Mysfit and JCM,

I think it is relevant to consider our position. REers constantly mock FEers, and so it is natural to take a defensive or apprehensive stance. Hopefully, I might be able to assist you in your questions.

ON the topics of distances, there is a huge concern. Monopole FE models predict much vaster distances around the edges of the plane (southern hemisphere on globe) than what is claimed in a RE model. The reason this is an issue is that such distortions would not be limited to the scientific arena, and all sailors and pilots who traveled in the southern hemispheres should notice that their RE maps are simply wrong. They can't ALL be in on the conspiracy, and so we arrive at an impasse.

It is my personal view that RE maps are not entirely accurate, even the monopole version -- which seems to be the most championed. What I hope to achieve is the construction of a better mapping. To do this, I am proposing a novel approach:

Model the trajectories of the Sun across the sky from different locations on Earth. Since FEers are everywhere, we should be able to join together to aggregate resources. With these trajectories, and knowing the locations from which they were measured, accurate zetetic mapping can be deduced to identify proper distances. This reverse-engineering approach by-passes the impasse of the distance debate, and instead only uses the assumptions that the Earth is a plane and the Sun maintains an approximate constant distance away as it travels.

The angle of the sun at a particular location and time is available online.  It would be interesting to take a significant number from widely spaced locations and from them determine the distances as there is no doubt about the accuracy of the information.

I have a slight suspicion it may show a round earth, you may find otherwise.