Offline uru38

  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
I can't find an explanation anywhere online, including on your wiki, as to why the sun is viewed to set (or rise) exactly east (or west) for all observers on a flat earth during the equinoxes. I believe this would be exactly what is expected on a spherical earth. I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on any flat earth explanation here. Thanks in advance.

Edit: I meant to write "rising" in the title not setting. Have now corrected it.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 03:07:06 PM by uru38 »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
I can't find an explanation anywhere online, including on your wiki

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

manicminer

First lets be clear that the Sun always rises in the east and sets in the west regardless of your location on Earth.  North of the equator the Sun swings to the south so shadows point north. South of the equator the opposite is true.  If anybody ever happens to take a vacation on Venus they will find the Sun rises in the west and sets in the east. That is just because Venus' axial tilt is 178 degrees and so it is effectively upside down with reversed apparent rotation direction. You would never see the Sun though from the surface of Venus as it is entirely enshrouded in poisonous cloud.

At the time of the Equinox (vernal or autumnal), the Suns declination on the sky is zero degrees. In other words it sits on the celestial equator. This is an imaginary line or circle which is projected upwards onto the sky directly over the equator. So for anyone situated on the equator of the Earth, the Sun will pass directly overhead at local noon. Any members who live at or very near the equator can verify for themselves that on either of the two equinoxes, the Sun will rise directly east and set directly west.

The same will apply to any other latitude.  The Sun swings 23.5 degrees either side of the celestial equator during the course of the year but on any given day the RA and Dec of the Sun is the same for everyone on Earth. That can be checked by simple observation. I know Tom won't accept any evidence of this from planetarium software because that would be based on RET 'patterns' and so invalid to him. So instead just check for yourselves in the sky and the facts will speak for themselves.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 11:21:10 PM by manicminer »

Offline uru38

  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Thanks for the reply Tom but I believe the point still stands. There is no explanation as to why the sun should be viewed east anywhere (even at the equator) on a flat Earth during a sunrise.

manicminer

uru38,

The best I can offer on this one is that the Suns orbital circle over the flat Earth surface varies in radius to account for how we observe the Sun to move during the year.  What mechanisms are behind making the Sun move like that in FE theory are however (as you suggest) unknown as far as I can tell unless they have figured that out now.

Offline uru38

  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Hey manicminer,
Yes I believe that's the flat earth explanation for seasons. But I'm simply talking about observing the sun to rise east for any observer. On a flat Earth those living in south america would see the sun rise at an azimuth of smaller than 45 degrees from north which isn't observed even with the consideration of changes due to atmospheric refraction. Tom's link does try and give an explanation:

Quote
When the edge of the sun's area of light intersects the observer's circle of vision it will approach from the East, or near the East. The apparent sun at sunrise is on the rim of the sun's area of light and is racing upon the atmolayer along the equator or the observer's latitude line to the observer. However straight the observer's latitude line is in his or her local area where the observer can see will be how the sun appears in its initial bearing.

But I'm not understanding any of that and so I was hoping I could get some clarification here (maybe even with some diagrams). Maybe bendy light plays a role but again, I haven't yet been able to find an explanation of such affects anywhere.

Can any flat Earthers help me out?

manicminer

Well the vernal equinox is coming up here in the northern hemisphere in a couple of weeks. One way to test this is to observe and measure the observed azimuth of the Sun from my location at 51.5N at the time of Sunrise. I have a permanent telescope set up in my back garden with a good view of the east horizon.  So I can measure the observed azimuth of the Sun as it rises.

Offline uru38

  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Awesome I think that's a great idea. We just need a flat earther to outline what would be expected for a flat Earth model and then we can compare this, and the expectations for a globe earth, to the results. I'll make a post in the investigations forum.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Thanks for the reply Tom but I believe the point still stands. There is no explanation as to why the sun should be viewed east anywhere (even at the equator) on a flat Earth during a sunrise.

The article addresses that here:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

manicminer

Yes your link might well address things from the FE point of view Tom but aren't you interested in whether evidence from real world observations support that point of view? 

*

Offline markjo

  • Purgatory
  • *
  • Posts: 3877
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Thanks for the reply Tom but I believe the point still stands. There is no explanation as to why the sun should be viewed east anywhere (even at the equator) on a flat Earth during a sunrise.

The article addresses that here:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox
Except that it really isn't addressed.  That section starts out saying that you can't see to infinity, which is completely irrelevant because you can see far enough to see the sun as it appears to rise from behind the horizon.  It then rambles on about how if an object is close enough then the circular equator seems to straighten out somewhat.  That is also completely irrelevant because the sun is 90 degrees of longitude away at sun rise.

Tom, would you agree that this diagram reasonably (if somewhat crudely) depicts the relative positions of the sun at sunrise and sunset and an observer on the equator on the day of an equinox?  If so, then please explain why sunrise should appear directly east and sunset should appear directly west.  If not, then please provide a more accurate diagram.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

*

Offline MCToon

  • *
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile

Actually, we have a Wiki article on the subject of the Equinox.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox

Thanks for the reply Tom but I believe the point still stands. There is no explanation as to why the sun should be viewed east anywhere (even at the equator) on a flat Earth during a sunrise.

The article addresses that here:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Equinox#A_Flat_Earth_Equinox

Thank you for the link, but it doesn't actually explain it.  The horizontal angle observation is very nearly 90 degrees due east, not perfectly 90 degrees, granted.  However, I cannot conceive of a possible landmass orientation that allows these angles to happen at the same time on that day.

From the article:
Quote
When the edge of the sun's area of light intersects the observer's circle of vision it will approach from the East, or near the East. The apparent sun at sunrise is on the rim of the sun's area of light and is racing upon the atmolayer along the equator or the observer's latitude line to the observer. However straight the observer's latitude line is in his or her local area where the observer can see will be how the sun appears in its initial bearing.

This does not explain how an observer in southern Chile or Iceland sees the sun rise nearly due east.

Finally, from the article:
Quote
If you were on the equator, and there was a race car (or jet ski) racing along the surface of the earth to you on the circular equator line, and you only see it until it is nearby, would you see it from the East or very near the East? If so, then that is the answer.
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

The only possible FE map that allows the sun to rise dues east, trace a straight path across the sky, then set dues west is one with a straight equator.  However, this requires Pac-Man.

So, there is a lot of work to do on the equinox explanation.  Or, maybe just abandon the idea since it can't work.


I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. A jet ski traveling along the equator and receding from you would disappear at North West on a Flat Earth? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 09:00:43 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1255
    • View Profile
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. North West? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.

If the race car or jet ski is 32 miles wide and 3000 miles high in the sky they would appear out of the North East and disappear out of the North West.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. North West? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.

If the race car or jet ski is 32 miles wide and 3000 miles high in the sky they would appear out of the North East and disappear out of the North West.

Given that at sea level we can only see perhaps 30 miles through the atmosphere, with the exception of some oddities, how is that the case?

We only see the sun's projection on the atmolayer when it is nearby, just like we can only see jet ski when it is nearby. When things are far away, we don't see them. We don't see Mount Everest at all times, for example.

You should probably find content which accurately addresses Flat Earth Theory before you post your "we should always see the sun" videos.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 09:15:29 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline markjo

  • Purgatory
  • *
  • Posts: 3877
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. A jet ski traveling along the equator and receding from you would disappear at North West on a Flat Earth? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.
That still isn't addressing the question at hand.  We are not talking about a jet-ski traveling along the equator.  We are talking about the flat earth sun that is supposedly some 3000 miles above the equator. 

Tom, do you agree that on the day of the equinox the sun is 90 degrees of longitude away from an observer on the equator at the time of sunrise or sunset as shown in this diagram?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

*

Offline TomFoolery

  • *
  • Posts: 404
  • Seeking truth, the flatter the better
    • View Profile
You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. What are you talking about? You are just making things up about how things should be. Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.

So how far away is the sun when it "sets" ?

If the earth is 24,000 miles across, and you're in Australia during the summer, it sets 7 hours after high noon, when it is about overhead.
The distance from central Australia to the sun just before it sets would be about 12,000 miles.
Too far? Let's make the earth only 8000 miles across.
Then the sun is only 3,800 miles away.
But we don't want to make the earth too small, because Australia is somewhere between 2400 and 5000 miles long, and as we know, it's not the only continent we have.

So depending on the size of the flat earth, then we can see the sun somewhere between at least 4,000 miles, maybe up to 12,000 miles.

And the crux of this is that regardless of the size of the earth, 7 hours after high noon in central Australia during the longest day of the year there, the sun's actual Azimuth will be about 53 degrees to the right of due west.

Am I totally confused or what's going on here?

*

Offline MCToon

  • *
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Quote
If using the AE map, when viewed from the equator, the race car or jet ski racing along the circular equator line will first appear North East, then appear to move horizontally as it gets closer.  Then it passes you it will come from due east.  As it moves farther away it will continue to move horizontally and finally disappear when it is North West.

You can't see for hundreds or thousands of miles through the atmosphere. A jet ski traveling along the equator and receding from you would disappear at North West on a Flat Earth? What are you talking about? Things disappear far closer than that.

This is the crux of your issue for imaging how the sun should look over a Flat Earth. You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere. We cannot.

"You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere"
...of course, I am not.  I am using your analogy of the race car racing along the equator, but I don't prefer the analogy so I will discard it.


  • On the day of the equinox
  • Observer on the equator
  • Using the AE map
  • The sun is visible for about 12 hours

This is the expected observation:
When the sun first "rises" it is about 25% of the way around the circle of the equator.  The observer will see it first appear North East.  As the sin continues to rise it will move towards dues east.  When the sun passes overhead at local solar noon it will pass from due east.  As the sun continues to travel it will move North West until is finally "sets" about 25% of the way around the circle of the equator.

The position of the sun is dictated by the map.  This clearly doesn't match observations.  Not good news for the AE map.

The observation is that on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.  On that day the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.

The only possible FE map that allows the sun to rise due east, trace a straight path across the sky, then set due west is one with a straight equator.  However, this generally requires a Pac-Man feature.  Few people like to go with a Pac-Man map.

Quote
We only see the sun's projection on the atmolayer when it is nearby...
I have never seen evidence suggesting the sun is projected onto the air.  What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Quote
Given that at sea level we can only see perhaps 30 miles through the atmosphere
This is not a given.  We can see the stars through ALL the atmosphere as they are just above the horizon.  What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.



It seems there is a lot of work to do on the equinox explanation.  Or, maybe just abandon the idea since it can't work.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 09:30:37 PM by MCToon »
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
"You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere"
...of course, I am not.  I am using your analogy of the race car racing along the equator, but I don't prefer the analogy so I will discard it.

The race car/jet ski disappearing at a close distance away is reality. If you are discarding reality in favor of how you think things should be, then your argument is invalid and there is nothing left to discuss.

*

Offline MCToon

  • *
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
"You are imaging that we can see forever into the distance and through the atmosphere"
...of course, I am not.  I am using your analogy of the race car racing along the equator, but I don't prefer the analogy so I will discard it.

The race car/jet ski disappearing at a close distance away is reality. If you are discarding reality in favor of how you think things should be, then your argument is invalid and there is nothing left to discuss.

Ignore that post, and instead look at the one where I actually refer to the sun.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect