[stevo021]

I just watched the documentary on Netflix called "Behind The Curve". There are two experiments they perform that prove Earth is round and I'm wondering what the flat earthers have to say about it.

I really wanted to see what flat earthers have to say about sunsets in that documentary but that wasn't actually discussed. If the earth is flat, how are timezones explained? If you call a friend on the other side of the world when it's night time for you, how can it be daytime for them? A huge argument for flat earth in that video is the ability to see really far away, so how can something super high in the sky drop below the horizon if there isn't a horizon? Wouldn't the sun be crashing into the flat earth then?

The two experiments I'm referring to are a gyroscope that affirmed a 15 degree rotation of the earth, and the other experiment was a laser over water that clearly showed the water level was not flat but had a curvature.

[Max_Almond]

If you search on YouTube you can find out what the flat earthers in question say about it. Bob Knodel and Jeran Campanella are two of the world's leading flat earthers and, despite what they found and their responses to it, good for them for at least doing some well thought out experiments.

Also: beware presenting good evidence on this site and asking for a flat earth explanation of it. Certain people will lead you on a right old merry goose chase with a whole string of nonsense. And before you know it, the original point is lost.

[Tom Bishop]

The two experiments I'm referring to are a gyroscope that affirmed a 15 degree rotation of the earth, and the other experiment was a laser over water that clearly showed the water level was not flat but had a curvature.

1. The Ring Laser Gyroscopes double purpose as a type of seismometer and the earth rotation claims resort to detection of microseismic patterns in the background: https://wiki.tfes.org/Ring_Laser_Gyroscope

2. The water convexity experiments are variable because, depending on conditions, light can often bend up and down throughout the day: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sinking_Ship_Effect_Caused_By_Refraction

[TomFoolery]

1. The Ring Laser Gyroscopes double purpose as a type of seismometer and the earth rotation claims resort to detection of microseismic patterns in the background: https://wiki.tfes.org/Ring_Laser_Gyroscope

Very interesting. Had a read on the wiki link above.

The wiki says:
“The effect of seismic events is to induce frequency-modulated side bands, in the 0.2-1 Hz region, around the 'Earth line', which indicate the presence of rotational components associated with seismic events.”
(Emph. mine.)

If I'm understanding that correctly, the laser ring gyro does not detect the linear acceleration component of seismic events, but only the rotational component.
Think of yourself on a ship, gently rocking back and forth on the waves. A gyro, of any sort, would definitely pick up the rotational component of those waves.
I picture a laser ring gyro working the same way - picking up the rolling action (i.e. rotational component) from the seismic waves.

The problem is, just like on the ship, seismic waves are cyclic - the rotational component goes back and forth and back and forth but never all the way around. Unless the seas are really rough.
The roughest seas I've been on was leaning the boat up about 30 degrees each way side to side. It was a hoot, Captain and I would jump from the high side of the wheel house all the way to the low side in a single jump, then when the boat tipped back, we'd jump back to the other side. But I digress.

Anyway, I fail to understand how a cyclic non-constant seismic activity could cause a constant non-stop single-direction never-reversing reading of 15 degrees per hour.

Also the wiki says:
"It should be noted that the 'Sidreal Day' happens to be the general time it takes for the stars to return to their spots above the earth. It is the Solar Day, that is in regards to the sun, which is supposedly the true rotation of the earth."

However, I believe the glober's theory is that the sidereal day is how long it takes the earth to rotate compared to stars millions of light years away. The theory is that because earth goes around the sun every 365.25 days, that the length of a solar day is off by 1/365th of a day compared to a sidereal day, which is compared to stars much much farther than the sun.

So they are claiming that the laser ring gyro is actually showing earth's rotation comped to the distant stars and ignoring the angular rate of the sun.

A lot of hogwash obviously but that's what globers believe. The better we understand them the better we can show them the error in their ways.

2. The water convexity experiments are variable because, depending on conditions, light can often bend up and down throughout the day: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sinking_Ship_Effect_Caused_By_Refraction

This one really interests me. Would the sinking ship effect be the same for mountains?
In other words, could I use a theodolite or water level to measure a mountain at 50 miles away, then at 75 miles away then at 100 miles away, and then derive a 3 point curve for the sinking ship effect?
Do we know if it's linear -- or does it increase with the square of the distance?

It would be great if we had a simple accurate formula that modeled this effect.

[Tom Bishop]

1. The Ring Laser Gyroscopes double purpose as a type of seismometer and the earth rotation claims resort to detection of microseismic patterns in the background: https://wiki.tfes.org/Ring_Laser_Gyroscope

Very interesting. Had a read on the wiki link above.

The wiki says:
“The effect of seismic events is to induce frequency-modulated side bands, in the 0.2-1 Hz region, around the 'Earth line', which indicate the presence of rotational components associated with seismic events.”
(Emph. mine.)

If I'm understanding that correctly, the laser ring gyro does not detect the linear acceleration component of seismic events, but only the rotational component.

Actually it says that they are concluding that the seismic events near the earth line are rotational components because they appear near the earth line that they assume is a signal that comes from the earth's rotation.

Anyway, I fail to understand how a cyclic non-constant seismic activity could cause a constant non-stop single-direction never-reversing reading of 15 degrees per hour.

The researchers are not claiming that there is an observed 15 degree rotation per hour beneath the device. That is your claim.

The researchers say that the device sees microseismic noises they don't know what the feature is, that it is assumed to be due to earth rotation, and it could very well be traced back to some oscillation in the medium.

At the top of p.153 of the Ring Laser Dynamics paper referenced in the Wiki we find a depiction of the Earth line on something like a seismic chart. The Earth line occurs at a specific frequency as a large peak. Around that peak are smaller peaks from a variety of noise sources -- traffic, micro-seismic, etc. It is admitted that the peaks represent noise.



Tell us how this peak in the noise equates earth rotation. Where do you see rotation in the above image?

As shown in the Wiki, the author states that they apply a period of 86164 seconds, the sidrael day, to this feature of the background noise to come up with a "rotation rate".

[stack]

Maybe you haven't seen the clip, attached below. Regardless of what the tfes wiki says, Globebusters got rotation results, consistently, that suspiciously match what is to be expected in the RE model. Pretty much as simple as that. It's not seismic, among other reasons, due to the consistency of the findings, 15 degree rotation per hour. So what's an alternative explanation?

[Tom Bishop]

The author of the paper states that they apply a period of 86164 seconds, the sidrael day, to this feature of the background noise to come up with a "rotation rate". This is how the device is stated to work.

You have done nothing, and have shown no sources, to say otherwise.

[JCM]

The flat Earth content makers in that video also unequivocally state southern flights east west across the southern ocean are fake or nonexistent.

Sydney to Johannesburg, time lapsed from 13 plus hour flight, paired with satellite images and gps data analyzation confirming the planes location.
I would wager the person on the flight would even share his entire 13 plus hour video with you if asked nicely.

[JCM]

The author of the paper states that they apply a period of 86164 seconds, the sidrael day, to this feature of the background noise to come up with a "rotation rate". This is how the device is stated to work.

You have done nothing, and have shown no sources, to say otherwise.

So, why do commercial airplanes have these expensive gyros in them if they aren’t measuring what they claim to measure.  What possible purpose would they serve?  Notice how Mr. Knodel says  he won’t accept the 15 degree rotation per hour despite its consistency.  He not so subtley asserts the gyro is measuring distance and speed of the heavens energies then says it would pick up the orbit of the Earth around the Sun and even pick up the movement of the entire galaxy therefore it is useless.  How utterly obnoxious.  Notice he has not come out with any more experiments.  As a self proclaimed engineer you would think he would use that gyro hundreds of times in different places with different controls and then release those experiments.  If the device is so incredibly accurate, surely it would be the nail in the coffin for globular spinning earth.

[Tom Bishop]

From the Strapdown Inertial Navigation Technology paper:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Ring_Laser_Gyroscope#The_Earth_Line

The effect of seismic events is to induce frequency-modulated side bands, in the 0.2-1 Hz region, around the 'Earth line'

Then from the Wikipedia page on Seismic Noise:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seismic_noise

Causes

Research on the origin of seismic noise[1] indicates that the low frequency part of the spectrum (below 1 Hz) is due to natural causes, chiefly ocean waves. In particular the peak between 0.1 and 0.3 Hz is clearly associated with the interaction of water waves of nearly equal frequencies but opposite directions.[2][3][4][5] At high frequency (above 1 Hz), seismic noise is mainly produced by human activities such as road traffic and industrial work; but there are also natural sources, like rivers. Around 1 Hz, wind and other atmospheric phenomena are also a major source of ground vibrations.[6]

This page seems to say that the peak in seismometers between 0.1 and 0.3 Hz is caused by the ocean.

This seismometer also shows a peak around that area:

http://physics.mercer.edu/hpage/compound/compound.html





The author seems to be calling the noise in the background the earth hum:

" Shown in Fig. 5 is a record that was collected for an interval approaching 24 h. The spectrum has been scaled relative to the maximum component observed during this time (microseisms), and plotted on a linear rather than logarithmic scale. The linear scale shows more clearly the mHz structure associated with the pendulum's response to persistent eigenmode oscillations (earth hum). Based on data collected with other of the author's different instruments during hurricanes, the spectrum below 10 mHz is expected to become distinctly different and highly variable during powerful storms. "

So, why do commercial airplanes have these expensive gyros in them if they aren’t measuring what they claim to measure.  What possible purpose would they serve?

Not all of the gyros claim to be able to observe the earth rotation. The ones in the paper are talking about the bigger research ones that are underground.

What makes you think that all of these devices can see this feature?

[JCM]

Why don’t you address the gyro Mr. Knodel used in the video, then proceeded to ignore the results as they were inconceivable, instead of some other gyro not in the discussion.  The gyros in question are used in airplanes to adjust specifically for the Earths rotation,  not seismic acitivity or the movement of the galaxy or the orbit around the Sun.

[Tom Bishop]

Why don’t you address the gyro Mr. Knodel used in the video, then proceeded to ignore the results as they were inconceivable, instead of some other gyro not in the discussion.  The gyros in question are used in airplanes to adjust specifically for the Earths rotation,  not seismic acitivity or the movement of the galaxy or the orbit around the Sun.

I will suggest you research some more on the topic. A search for "Ring Laser Gyroscope" and "seismic" brings up many papers showing that the RLG is used to study seismology.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22ring+laser+gyroscope%22+%22seismic%22

Do some searches for "ring laser gyroscope" + "earth rotation". Show us where the device is measuring 15 degrees per hour beneath it and is not talking about the earth's rotation as seismic signals.

Demonstrate rather than say or assume. So far you have demonstrated nothing.

"The gyros in question are used in airplanes..." I would like to see a source for this. Please demonstrate that the gyro in question is used in airplanes, and that all airplane gyroscopes and all RLGs of all types and resolutions can see this feature.

These are all things that you heard, not things that you have demonstrated. Demonstrate you claims, right here, rather than stating them.

[JCM]

Why don’t you address the gyro Mr. Knodel used in the video, then proceeded to ignore the results as they were inconceivable, instead of some other gyro not in the discussion.  The gyros in question are used in airplanes to adjust specifically for the Earths rotation,  not seismic acitivity or the movement of the galaxy or the orbit around the Sun.

I will suggest you research some more. A search for "Ring Laser Gyroscope" and "seismic" brings up many papers showing that the RLG is used to study seismology.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22ring+laser+gyroscope%22+%22seismic%22

Do some searches for "ring laser gyroscope" + "earth rotation". Show us where the device is measuring 15 degrees per hour beneath it and is not talking about the earth's rotation as seismic signals.

Demonstrate rather than say or assume. So far you have demonstrated nothing.

"The gyros in question are used in airplanes..." I would like to see a source for this. Please demonstrate that the gyro in question is used in airplanes, and that all airplane gyroscopes and all RLGs of all types and resolutions can see this feature.

These are all things that you heard, not things that you have demonstrated. Demonstrate you claims, right here, rather than stating them.

Really?  An explanation of ring laser gyroscope usage in commercial aircraft.  These took  seconds to find.


http://www.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/ringlaser/about_us.shtml
Taken from the front page... “The goal of this research group is the development of world-leading active ring laser gyroscopes for measuring subtle variations in the rotation rate of the earth. This is important for research in geophysics, geodesy, general relativity and other areas of fundamental physics.”

Modern navigation from early gyros to ring laser gyros ...
http://www.imar-navigation.de/downloads/papers/inertial_navigation_introduction.pdf

[Tom Bishop]

Provide proper evidence. Quote from your sources rather than mindlessly linking to videos and papers. Provide direct quotes which back up what you are attempting to say.

The first source, a video, provided generic information about RLGs in navigation.

The second source, a paper, linked to the research RLGs previously discussed.

The third paper gives some generic information about RLGs.

You have provided NO evidence to back up the claims you have made. None. Quote your sources. Learn what evidence is and how to provide it. Show us.

[JCM]

Provide proper evidence. Quote from your sources rather than mindlessly linking to videos and papers. Provide direct quotes which back up what you are attempting to say.

The first source, a video, provided generic information about RLGs in navigation.

The second source, a paper, linked to the research RLGs previously discussed.

The third paper gives some generic information about RLGs.

You have provided NO evidence to back up the claims you have made. None. Quote your sources. Learn what evidence is and how to provide it. Show us.

So, aviation training manual showing RLG are used for navigation isn’t evidence they are used in planes? 

https://archive.org/details/arxiv-physics0406156
Paper on RLG to detect rotation of the Earth...  Is that direct enough? They are specifically sensitive enough to measure changes in the rotation of the Earth...

[Tom Bishop]

Provide proper evidence. Quote from your sources rather than mindlessly linking to videos and papers. Provide direct quotes which back up what you are attempting to say.

The first source, a video, provided generic information about RLGs in navigation.

The second source, a paper, linked to the research RLGs previously discussed.

The third paper gives some generic information about RLGs.

You have provided NO evidence to back up the claims you have made. None. Quote your sources. Learn what evidence is and how to provide it. Show us.

So, aviation training manual showing RLG are used for navigation isn’t evidence they are used in planes? 

https://archive.org/details/arxiv-physics0406156
Paper on RLG to detect rotation of the Earth...  Is that direct enough? They are specifically sensitive enough to measure changes in the rotation of the Earth...

Here it is again slowly:

You need to show that the RLGs used in planes can see the background noise feature assumed to be caused by the earth's rotation like the research gyroscopes claim to do.

You have not done this.

In fact, you just linked to another paper about research gyroscopes.

You also need to show that those research gyroscopes are actually detecting rotation beneath them rather than the background noise that RLG research papers suggest and say, that have been quoted and linked in the Wiki.

Linking to random papers and videos does not mean that you win. You need to quote your sources and demonstrate the matter.

If, you cannot demonstrate your position, then you should stop posting and never return to this thread.

[markjo]

Here it is again slowly:

You need to show that the RLGs used in planes can see the background noise feature assumed to be caused by the earth's rotation like the research gyroscopes claim to do.

Who claimed that RLGs used in planes can see the earth rotation?  Who claimed that research gyros measuring the earth's rotation are mounted in airplanes?

I've seen claims that RLGs are used in airplane navigation and I've seen claims that RLGs can measure the earth's rotation.  I just don't recall seeing any claims that RLGs in airplanes are used to measure the earth's rotation.

[TomFoolery]

These are all things that you heard, not things that you have demonstrated. Demonstrate you claims, right here, rather than stating them.

Thank you my friend, that's the spirit! I needed to hear that!

[TomFoolery]

Actually it says that they are concluding that the seismic events near the earth line are rotational components because they appear near the earth line that they assume is a signal that comes from the earth's rotation.

Just curious, do you understand what the earth line is?

The researchers are not claiming that there is an observed 15 degree rotation per hour beneath the device. That is your claim.

Actually, they are claiming that their laser ring gyro has a perimeter of 14.0044 meters, a laser light wavelength of 633nm, and a speed of light of 299,792,458m/s, and they claim they are getting a beat frequency of close to 287.75hz which they claim their formula equates to a rotational rate of 360 degrees relative to the distant stars in 86164 seconds, which is 15.04108444361914488649 degrees per hour, relative to the distant stars.

So they didn't say 15 degrees per hour, but they said 360 degrees relative to the distant stars in 86164 seconds, which is pretty close to 15 degrees per day.

Now I'm not saying they actually measured anything close to 15 degrees, but that is what they claimed. More specifically, 15.04108444361914488649 degrees per hour.

The researchers say that the device sees microseismic noises they don't know what the feature is, that it is assumed to be due to earth rotation, and it could very well be traced back to some oscillation in the medium.

At the top of p.153 of the Ring Laser Dynamics paper referenced in the Wiki we find a depiction of the Earth line on something like a seismic chart.

Seriously, batman? Something like a seismic chart?
A spectrum chart is absolutely nothing like a seismic chart.
Do you not know the difference between a dataset plotted against time and one plotted against frequency?
They are in two different domains!
The earth line refers to a spectrum analysis showing all the different frequencies generated by the LRG over a time period, with one of them towering far above all the background noise.
Totally different than a seismic chart!
By the way, since you probably don't realize the significance of the db scale I should mention that too.
The graph shows the signal 40dBm above the noise. That  means the signal is 10,000 times greater than the noise floor. That is seriously significant.

The Earth line occurs at a specific frequency as a large peak. Around that peak are smaller peaks from a variety of noise sources -- traffic, micro-seismic, etc. It is admitted that the peaks represent noise.


Tell us how this peak in the noise equates earth rotation. Where do you see rotation in the above image?

Are you aware that a laser ring gyro generates a beat frequency that is proportional to the lasers wavelength, the light path length, and the rotation rate? The faster you turn it, the higher frequency it makes. No turn, no frequency.
According to their formula, a frequency of about 287.75  equates to about 15 degrees per hour and 287.75 is about where that spike shows up on the plot, s o that's where I see the rotation in the above image.
That doesn't mean they are being honest but that is what the chart says if the chart is true.
(And it might be, if Knodel had the same problem.)

As shown in the Wiki, the author states that they apply a period of 86164 seconds, the sidrael day, to this feature of the background noise to come up with a "rotation rate".

That "feature" is the beat frequency. You might check into how beat frequencies work. Understanding that is key to understanding the LRG.

[Tom Bishop]

Beat frequency is the number of beats per second. A beat frequency of 287.75 Hz is meaningless. Hz already means instances per second.

"According to their formula"? Are you kidding. You need to prove that formula.

Appealing to something that was made after the fact, after device was created, and the results were analyzed, is invalid, and stupid. Especially something that requires the input of the number of seconds in a day.