Water spinning phenomenon
« on: January 31, 2019, 02:03:44 AM »
Hi, if you believe the Earth is flat, then can you please explain why water from a faucet will spin clockwise in the Southern hemisphere and counter-clockwise in the North?

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Offline J-Man

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2019, 03:46:28 AM »
I built toilets and drilled the holes so water would flow in either direction in the bowl, base on my angle. I did the same with faucet aerators. I drive on the right side of the road, others drive on the left. Crazy phenomenon huh.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Offline JCM

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2019, 05:10:49 AM »
Hi, if you believe the Earth is flat, then can you please explain why water from a faucet will spin clockwise in the Southern hemisphere and counter-clockwise in the North?

Sure, sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn’t.  It is an aweful way to prove anything.  If you built a large reservoir of water with a flat bottom and perfectly circular with at least many hundreds of gallons with a pipe drain in the centered ability to cleanly start the drain, yes they will rotate differently.  A kitchen sink or toilet is simply too small and have imperfections which impact the initial flow more then the rotation of the planet.

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Offline OrigamiBoy

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2019, 06:28:49 PM »
Check this out:

These are very desperate people - trying SO hard to maintain this one theory that they are prepared to shut their minds to the hundreds of crazy things they have to say to defend it.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2019, 06:37:48 PM »
She created a direction the moment she poured the water in each time though.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2019, 06:52:17 PM »
The equator demonstrations are a well known tourist attraction scam. They pour it in on the side of the tub they want it to spin in. The flow also has to do with the shape of the drain, and there is also a phenomenon where the water even changes the direction of spin mid flow.

Mainstream science was briefly fascinated with professional laboratory experiments of the Coriolis Effect on the spin of water drains at one point, but I have read that the results were inconclusive. One or two researchers claimed that they saw some consistent results, but their results were unable to be replicated, and there was discussion of systemic error due to drain shape or external elements. I even recall reading some reports of the researchers claiming that the wind hitting the laboratory was affecting the experiments. Reports of those water drain experiments seem tough to find at the moment, however. Once the Round Earth experiments start failing, the papers are left to rot somewhere, are not linked or referenced or shared, and they pretend it never happened.

Here is our current article on the matter of the Coriolis Effect: https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Coriolis_Effect

From the talk page:

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Topics for Further Research

In response to a video embedded in the Snopes link, showing the rotation of water in a 5 foot diameter pool which supposedly shows the Coriolis Effect in action, we are given a lead for further research by Rand Huso:

  “ This has been done before - I saw the experiment done in the '80s. The Coriolis is so small that small perturbations in the construction of the drain could easily be amplified and become much larger than the Coriolis. The proper way to conduct this test is to repeat it many times and take the exact environment "down under" and do the same thing. As I recall, the earlier experiment was repeated 100 times, and the numbers were 49 to 51 - completely inconclusive. ”

  “ the experiment has been done before. I love this presentation, but I'm unconvinced at their conclusion. What I saw before was in the Meteorology department at TAMU. Film. ”

It would be nice to find documentation of the professional experiments. I only wish I had saved what I found about the researchers claiming that the wind hitting the outside of the laboratory was affecting their controlled pool experiments.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 07:24:52 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2019, 07:21:06 PM »
Hi, if you believe the Earth is flat, then can you please explain why water from a faucet will spin clockwise in the Southern hemisphere and counter-clockwise in the North?

Yeah, unfortunately that one's a party trick.

There are a thousand equators (which aren't even on any equator) where a local villager draws an arbitrary line in the sand and says it's the equator then does his truck, but gives the water the correct initial spin depending on which side of his line he's standing.

They probably get it wrong half the time anyway, and nobody's gonna know.

Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2019, 07:50:18 PM »
Tourist tricks aside, these guys did it a bit more carefully and repeated it three times:

If you've proven yourself immune to logic and incapable of reasonable debate, please understand that I won't be paying you much heed (this means you, George Jetson, Baby Thork, Sandokhan, Tom Bishop, and Totallackey).

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2019, 08:12:23 PM »
Tourist tricks aside, these guys did it a bit more carefully and repeated it three times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiBrV4Q9NYE

This is the video that I just linked to. This experiment is subject to the shape of the drain and other common factors that create systemic errors.

The experiment needs to be done with different pools, different drains, with the water poured in with different directions and in controlled conditions. It needs to be performed many times for a conclusive result.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 08:17:16 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2019, 08:58:13 PM »
Tourist tricks aside, these guys did it a bit more carefully and repeated it three times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiBrV4Q9NYE

This is the video that I just linked to. This experiment is subject to the shape of the drain and other common factors that create systemic errors.

The experiment needs to be done with different pools, different drains, with the water poured in with different directions and in controlled conditions. It needs to be performed many times for a conclusive result.

Do you think they had some magnets hidden around the pool? magnets repel water don't they?

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2019, 09:14:51 PM »
Tourist tricks aside, these guys did it a bit more carefully and repeated it three times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiBrV4Q9NYE

This is the video that I just linked to. This experiment is subject to the shape of the drain and other common factors that create systemic errors.

The experiment needs to be done with different pools, different drains, with the water poured in with different directions and in controlled conditions. It needs to be performed many times for a conclusive result.

Do you think they had some magnets hidden around the pool? magnets repel water don't they?
Magnet Sage.

That’s something I never knew about before and had to just go look it up, it’s super interesting. :o  This changes my outlook slightly as now there are more variables to think about, like whether the earths magnetic field has an affect on the flow of water across the world or vice versa.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 09:18:51 PM by ChrisTP »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2019, 09:38:50 PM »
In the 1960s a researcher named Ascher Shapiro claimed that bathtub vortex direction was due to the "Coriolis Effect":

http://classic.scopeweb.mit.edu/articles/shapiros-bathtub-experiment/

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Shapiro’s Bathtub Experiment
by Conor Myhrvold   
posted November 1, 2011 at 12:53 pm

Over forty years ago, in the 1960s, the world briefly became captivated with how a bathtub drains. Did something called the Coriolis effect influence the twirling water?

The Earth’s rotation influences how fluids swirl on the planet’s surface. It’s why low-pressure systems in the northern hemisphere twist counterclockwise. This phenomenon, known as the Coriolis effect, is the appearance of an object to deflect to one side in a rotating reference frame. Since it is such a tiny effect on small scales, no one had yet proven that this inertial force actually affects how water leaves a bathtub, despite many previous efforts.

In 1962, the same year that Watson and Crick received their Nobel Prize for the discovery of the double helix, MIT professor Ascher Shapiro, an expert in fluid mechanics, set up an elaborate test to try to change that. Shapiro’s elementary experiment, which started with a bathtub, quickly turned into a complicated and ambitious undertaking that involved a tank six feet wide and six inches deep.

The Coriolis effect at MIT’s latitude, 42°, was just “thirty-millionths that of gravity, which is so small that it will be overcome by filling and even temperature differences and water impurities,” reported one of many newspapers and periodicals that covered the results of Shapiro’s experiment. After much tinkering to cancel out these interferences, and presumably a hefty water bill, Shapiro found the answer: the Coriolis effect does indeed cause a bathtub vortex in the northern hemisphere to swirl counterclockwise.

But even after his results were published in a letter to Nature, Shapiro’s confirmation drew the skepticism of readers. In correspondence with one reader, Shapiro noted: “Many results contradictory to this have been reported in the literature but all of them have involved faulty experiments due to a lack of realization of how sensitive the experiment is.” He was supported, however, by colleagues in the Northern hemisphere who confirmed the counterclockwise bathtub drainage, while those in the Southern hemisphere demonstrated the same effect in the opposite direction—a clockwise flow—just as anticipated.

In a world without electronic communication, where author correspondence was a more prolonged affair, a sort of chivalry existed between a scientist and a popular audience who took an interest in academics. Scrawled with a pencil on back-and-forth correspondences between Shapiro and his fans and housed today within a dusty and faded folder in the MIT archives are the records of reprints being sent, of questions being answered, and of careful and nuanced responses that understated Shapiro’s high standing at MIT. A Ford Professor at the time, and later elevated to Institute professor, Shapiro took time to send article reprints for those who asked for it and to answer mail from inquisitive readers, some of whom promoted dubious questions and claims.

...Who would have thought the swirl of a bathtub would have been a matter of great interest? For a seemingly insignificant problem, the bathtub controversy loomed large in Shapiro’s career until his death in 2004. The first line of his obituary in the Boston Globe read: “Dr. Ascher Shapiro wanted to get a handle on how fluids move whether they were swirling down the bathtub drain, or flowing through the human body.”

Controversy because other researchers were getting different and inconsistent results. Shapiro claimed that he could perform the experiment and that all other researchers were wrong.

The below shows that even with extreme care the Coriolis effect can be overwhelmed by very small perturbations such as how the lid is lifted.

http://web.aeromech.usyd.edu.au/history-chapters/C3%20ThermoFluids.pdf

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At Tom Fink’s invitation, Professor Lloyd M. Trefethen of Tufts University, USA, spent a short sabbatical in Mechanical Engineering in 1964/65. Already famous for his work on surface tension phenomena, he led us into a repeat of the experiments on the bathtub vortex that had recently been conducted by Ascher Shapiro at MIT. After much careful design, a circular tank of some 2.4m in diameter and 0.4m depth was constructed and installed in one of the subterranean dungeons of the old Peter Nicol Russell building. Carefully designed procedures and their diligent execution resulted in absolutely conclusive results that were published in Nature [Trefethen, et al, 1965). A re-enactment for the local media was a disaster: Bilger and Tanner muffed the removal of the covering baffles creating a great vortex in the water that then went out the wrong way. ‘Scientists baffled’ cried the media. We even made Time magazine!

In Flow, Nature's Patterns, a Tapestry in three Parts by Dr. Phillip Ball the author gives an overview on p. 47:

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A popular notion says that the rotation of the earth starts the bathtub vortex spinning. But while it is certainly true that this rotation controls the direction of the giant atmospheric vortices of cyclones, which rotate counter-clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and clockwise in the Southern, the influence of the Earth’s rotation on a micro-cyclone in the bath should be extremely weak. Biesel claimed that it cannot be responsible for the bathtub vortex because, contrary to popular belief, they may rotate in either direction at any place on the planet. But is that really so? In 1962 the American engineer Ascher Shapiro at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology claimed that he had consistently produced counter-clockwise vortices in his lab by first allowing the water to settle for 24 hours, dissipating any residual rotational motion, before pulling the plug. The claim sparked controversy: later researchers said that the experiment was extremely sensitive to the precise conditions in which it was conducted. The dispute has never quite been resolved. We do know, however, why a small initial rotation of the liquid develops into a robust vortex. This is due to the movement of the water as it converges on the outlet. In theory this convergence can be completely symmetrical: water moves inwards to the plughole from all directions. But the slightest departure from that symmetrical situation, which could happen at random, may be amplified because of the way fluidflow operates.

An abstract at the Physical Society of Japan states:

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It has long been controversial whether the Coriolis force due to the rotation of the earth plays a significant role in the generation of the bathtub vortex in small vessels such as bathtubs.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 10:57:54 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2019, 01:20:15 AM »
I think it's important to remind ourselves that the direction of swirl, once it has started, is completely unrelated to any outside influence. They can seriously go either way, and once they start in a given direction, they feed themselves and continue to get more and more water going in that direction.

The entire discussion is about that very first nanosecond when the water begins to flow, what makes it go one way or the other?

We get all excited about "Oh the whole pool is swirling this way or that way" - but we really don't spend a lot of time on that very brief moment in time when the direction is actually "chosen."

I would be interested in seeing more examination of that initial moment.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2019, 01:34:15 AM »
I think it's important to remind ourselves that the direction of swirl, once it has started, is completely unrelated to any outside influence.
I think that it's even more important to remind ourselves that RET says that the Coriolis effect is greatest at the poles and zero at the equator.  And even at it's greatest strength, Coriolis still vastly overwhelmed by other forces at such small scales.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 01:35:55 AM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2019, 09:00:25 AM »
To summarise: when the experiments are done properly and carefully, the draining water effect corresponds to the expected results; and when they're not, it sometimes does and sometimes doesn't.

The moral of the story? Do your experiments properly.
If you've proven yourself immune to logic and incapable of reasonable debate, please understand that I won't be paying you much heed (this means you, George Jetson, Baby Thork, Sandokhan, Tom Bishop, and Totallackey).

Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2019, 09:29:41 AM »
In the 1960s a researcher named Ascher Shapiro claimed that bathtub vortex direction was due to the "Coriolis Effect"

So? In the 1880s someone claimed that the moon was translucent and emitted its own light which was cold. Strangely none of this won him a Nobel prize. People can claim what they like.

You are correct about the Coriolis effect not making your bath drain differently depending on the hemisphere you’re in, that is a myth.
But that doesn’t mean the Coriolis effect doesn’t exist. The effects can be seen on a more macro scale, particularly in the way hurricanes and tornadoes spin differently in the different hemispheres






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Shapiro’s Bathtub
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2019, 09:38:47 PM »
We have an article on our Wiki about the hurricanes. Start a new thread if you want to talk about that.

The articles say that there was a time when mainstream science tested the Coriolis Effect in containers, with inconclusive results. The tests involved bathtubs and pools that of various sizes, such as the 6 foot  diameter ones mentioned in the articles, and were carefully conducted in laboratory setting. If there was a valid and repeatable effect on the direction of water vortexes it would have been found and paraded as evidence of the Coriolis Effect, and you would have a plethora of studies and documentation to point to, rather than controversy and unrepeatable results.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 09:44:25 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2019, 10:03:01 PM »
We have an article on our Wiki about the hurricanes. Start a new thread if you want to talk about that.

The articles say that there was a time when mainstream science tested the Coriolis Effect in containers, with inconclusive results. The tests involved bathtubs and pools that of various sizes, such as the 6 foot  diameter ones mentioned in the articles, and were carefully conducted in laboratory setting. If there was a valid and repeatable effect on the direction of water vortexes it would have been found and paraded as evidence of the Coriolis Effect, and you would have a plethora of studies and documentation to point to, rather than controversy and unrepeatable results.

The Coriolis experiments are basically convoluted gyroscope experiments, right?

Maybe we should also check into some gyroscope experiments. In fact, I think some of those were started using a very expensive high accuracy gyro, but I haven't been able to find the results.

Does anybody know anything about the progress on that? If the gyro shows no rotation, then it's slam dunk, no need to worry about spinning water.

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Offline stack

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Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2019, 10:14:07 PM »
We have an article on our Wiki about the hurricanes. Start a new thread if you want to talk about that.

The articles say that there was a time when mainstream science tested the Coriolis Effect in containers, with inconclusive results. The tests involved bathtubs and pools that of various sizes, such as the 6 foot  diameter ones mentioned in the articles, and were carefully conducted in laboratory setting. If there was a valid and repeatable effect on the direction of water vortexes it would have been found and paraded as evidence of the Coriolis Effect, and you would have a plethora of studies and documentation to point to, rather than controversy and unrepeatable results.

The Coriolis experiments are basically convoluted gyroscope experiments, right?

Maybe we should also check into some gyroscope experiments. In fact, I think some of those were started using a very expensive high accuracy gyro, but I haven't been able to find the results.

Does anybody know anything about the progress on that? If the gyro shows no rotation, then it's slam dunk, no need to worry about spinning water.

Speaking of gyros, from the recent doc 'Behind the Curve'. Bob Knodel, part of the Globebusters team, takes us through their attempt to debunk a spinning earth with a pricey ring laser gyro. It didn't end well.


Re: Water spinning phenomenon
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2019, 10:21:24 PM »
Speaking of gyros, from the recent doc 'Behind the Curve'. Bob Knodel, part of the Globebusters team, takes us through their attempt to debunk a spinning earth with a pricey ring laser gyro. It didn't end well.
I saw SciManDan mention that documentary earlier, I'll have to have a look.
The two really telling parts in that clip are where he says that the results were as you'd expect on a globe earth and then says "but we weren't going to accept that". And then at the end where he says that the result is "confidential".
Surely the whole point of doing experiments is to learn from the results and publish them for peer review.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.