Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« on: January 23, 2019, 06:07:03 PM »
In a flat earth reality, what is the explanation for when mercury and venus transit the sun (are visibly in between the sun and earth)?

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Offline Stagiri

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Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2019, 06:36:05 PM »
In a flat earth reality, what is the explanation for when mercury and venus transit the sun (are visibly in between the sun and earth)?
Differentiating orbits, I think.
Dr Rowbotham was accurate in his experiments.
How do you know without repeating them?
Because they don't need to be repeated, they were correct.

Offline pb1985

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Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2019, 01:15:57 AM »
I've seen some forum threads here and elsewhere that claim that FE proponents have never answered this, when there are several answers:

1) According to Aristotelian and Ptolemaic models, Moon Mercury and Venus are below Sun. All astronomers of antiquity seemed to believe planets were far smaller than Earth. If this is so, transit is explained.
2) If planets are all around the same altitude, M and V could just have different orbit paths that involve Sun crossing, where the others don't. Heliocentric assumption that all planets must be of same nature and have same kind of orbit.
3) It could easily be faked, and would only involve doing so for a few hours once every 5 or 10 years. Just google image 'airplane venus in front of sun' and you will see how easy it would be.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:19:29 AM by pb1985 »

Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2019, 12:48:40 PM »
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It could easily be faked, and would only involve doing so for a few hours once every 5 or 10 years. Just google image 'airplane venus in front of sun' and you will see how easy it would be.

Having witnessed one transit of Venus and one of Mercury myself I can safely say there is no faking involved.  Why would anyone want to or need to fake something like that?

Offline pb1985

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Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2019, 02:50:43 PM »
'Can safely say there's no faking'

First off, that was in third place of the three possibilities, with the first one the primary possibility. Nice job ignoring the first two points.

But to address your cherry-picking, how can you 'safely say'? You saw a small black dot cross in front of the sun. When a plane crosses the sun, a perfect black outline of one is seen. Any spherical aircraft could produce the same effect (simply flying slowly across the space where transit is said to be visible), and it could be done very close to the Earth's surface, not requiring any kind of space flight.

As for the why, you must be new to the concepts around FE: with heliocentrism, atheism is more tenable, faith in government can replace religion, world scientific-financial dictatorship has better chance of adoption; and humanity, were FE to be true, is kept ignorant.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 03:33:29 PM by pb1985 »

Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2019, 04:07:52 PM »
No I just follow the astronomical diaries which predict when a transit is going to take place, take my telescope outside, aim at the Sun and see the inky black dot silhouetted against the Sun disk and think..   there we have it.  There is another Mercury transit on November 11 this year so I will be ready!

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If planets are all around the same altitude, M and V could just have different orbit paths that involve Sun crossing, where the others don't. Heliocentric assumption that all planets must be of same nature and have same kind of orbit

True to an extent.  Mercury and Venus are both inferior planets meaning that they lie closer to the Sun that the Earth does. Since the planets share very nearly the same plane, that means that every so often Mercury and Venus can pass in front of the Sun.  It is not possible for Mars outwards to go directly between the Sun and the Earth.

Heliocentrism is not an assumption as you put it, it is the best model based on all the observations and events that we observe.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 04:14:55 PM by manicminer »

Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2019, 04:38:48 PM »
ISS/Venus/Atlantis/Mercury solar transits:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1786946#msg1786946

Double transit Mercury/ISS and lunar transits/double Venus/Hubble transit:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1787025#msg1787025

Extended Schroeter effect - the Evening and the Morning stars are two different planets:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1722427#msg1722427

Eosphorus and Hesperus:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1650377#msg1650377

Ammizaduga Venus tables: markedly different orbit than the present day trajectory

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1635693#msg1635693


Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2019, 04:46:50 PM »
I've seen some forum threads here and elsewhere that claim that FE proponents have never answered this, when there are several answers:

1) According to Aristotelian and Ptolemaic models, Moon Mercury and Venus are below Sun. All astronomers of antiquity seemed to believe planets were far smaller than Earth. If this is so, transit is explained.
2) If planets are all around the same altitude, M and V could just have different orbit paths that involve Sun crossing, where the others don't. Heliocentric assumption that all planets must be of same nature and have same kind of orbit.
3) It could easily be faked, and would only involve doing so for a few hours once every 5 or 10 years. Just google image 'airplane venus in front of sun' and you will see how easy it would be.

First off, let me thank you for the reply.

First, I'll counter your first point which states Mercury and Venus are below the sun. When either of these planets pass through our vision of the sun, they only transit a portion of the time. Sometimes they pass where the sun is and are still not visible, suggesting that they are further away. If you question how we could ever know that a plane tis behind the sun, planets move in a predictable pattern that we can track even in the day.

For your second hypothesis, my first argument works as well. We can track those planets' movement during the day and they never transit the sun even when they occupy the same space in our POV.

Please also consider the phenomenon of elongation, which is where mercury and venus had a maximum angle or separation from where the sun is at any given time (Mercury having a smaller angle because it is closer to the sun). Do you have a hypothesis of why the two planets with a maximum elongation also are the two planets that also transit the sun? Or is it just an amazing coincidence?

Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2019, 04:58:57 PM »
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Extended Schroeter effect - the Evening and the Morning stars are two different planets:

No the evening and morning 'stars' are the planet Venus.  When Venus has an eastern elongation (east of the Sun as seen from Earth) it is seen in the evening after sunset, then it passes through inferior conjunction and is then west of the Sun as seen from Earth and so is visible in the morning sky before the Sun rises. Donttrollme is right in that due to the slightly different orbital planes, Venus and Mercury do mostly pass either above or below the Sun during conjunction just as the Moon mostly passes above or below the Earths shadow at full Moon which is why we don't see a lunar eclipse every month.

 If you have ever looked at the evening and morning 'stars' through a telescope you will note that they look remarkably similar.  Thus implying that they are the same planet!  The phase is just reversed which is exactly what we would expect of a planet orbiting the Sun closer (and therefore quicker) than the Earth.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 05:01:46 PM by manicminer »

Offline pb1985

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Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2019, 03:54:43 AM »
Donttrollme: A potential explanation would be that the sun's distance from the Earth varies during the year, perhaps with the seasons, and passes below Mercury and/or Venus at certain times, allowing them to move behind sometimes and in front at others. Another potentially coinciding explanation would be electron-like orbits that are sometimes below and sometimes diagonal motion, moving behind.

I wouldn't classify myself as a FE'er but have been researching the theory. I do think there is a point where other kinds of evidence (for example, with regards to Antarctica, angular resolution of eye and its relation to curvature formula, horizon at eye level, abounding NASA fakery, and other types) can overwhelm a single unexplainable phenomenon or limited number of phenomena that may be inaccessible for the layman to study and misunderstood by professionals.

Given the garbage analysis and blindness to obvious problems I've seen in many mainstream academic disciplines (e.g. history and anthropology), where untold thousands in the fields are wasting their time for decades on end by clinging to thoroughly disproven paradigms, while laughing at the new and correct paradigms (e.g. Clovis First, which is a complete joke yet still the so called consensus), including 'leaders in field' at the highest-ranked universities, I as a lay non-astronomer hardly have total confidence in astronomers. That's no attack on you personally, but I sadly cannot have confidence in the community's findings without personally verifying, due to what I've seen in other fields.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 03:58:42 AM by pb1985 »

Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2019, 04:56:24 AM »
We've been bouncing radio waves off Venus since 1961. We know that it's tens of millions of kilometres away because of the time taken for the signals to bounce back. And if you think only governments with big budgets have the capabilities to do this, even amateur German astronomers have managed it:

https://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/speclab/earth_venus_earth.htm

Besides, for centuries before we could do this, Edmund Halley's Transit of Venus experiment allowed us to determine a similar distance. Even schoolkids do that experiment now (although there's a bit of a wait until the next Venus transit).

Offline pb1985

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Re: Mercury/Venus transiting the sun
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2019, 01:42:59 PM »
I'm going to answer your point from the FE perspective.

If the experiments are indeed genuine (the distinction of 'amateur' carries no weight, since the deep state/shadow govt has legions of undercover personnel doing all kinds of things as relatively convincing 'amateurs,' including doing phony/junk/disinfo research on conspiracy-related matters, surely as well as posting all day in this and other forums; it's a shame that they have cast doubt on and complicated well-meaning, real amateur research activity, but that's where we are) the findings could be due to a misunderstanding of the media at certain altitudes. The various FE models often posit a crystalline, glass, or metal dome and layering of heavens, and also maintain the existence of aether, which is still asserted to exist by some academics and was only said to be disproven by two non-public experiments. Taking dome-multiple heavens-aether as true, the various mediums encountered - perhaps denser than near-Earth air/aether - may be slowing the waves and making the distance seem greater than it is. As far as I can tell they're not able to do the bounceback with other planets, so they can't compare the Venus findings with that of others. The vast majority of radio waves don't penetrate the ionosphere, and I haven't seen evidence of credible tests, if there can be any, that involve super-HF test signals going out and not coming back. I don't believe man has ever gone above the neighborhood of 40-50 miles altitude (which is the approximate altitude of the provably faked Apollo video of Earth; and where the 'ISS' appears to be unmanned satellite), so there's been no direct verification of what's above (only a tiny lower portion of 'first heaven' in the various models), and the credibility of the agencies/people who might go there (or claim to have conducted highly advanced radio testing) in the future is at/near zero. If super HF waves are able to partially or fully penetrate the firmament, resulting in no or misdirected bounceback, it would be difficult to prove RE using radio alone, based on the technology and experiment methodology used thus far.

As applies to radio experiments, audio fakery also cannot be discounted. Satellites may be able to automatically receive morse-coded Venus-targeted super HF radio transmissions and/or be aware of their broadcast beforehand and send them back at a heliocentrically appropriate timing. This wouldn't have to be done in many instances, just for a handful of government and amateur tests to be cemented as undeniable fact, at which point people, accepting the fakery, would probably decline to go through the expensive and apparently pointless exercise of trying to repeat the results. If the satellite operators missed any tests, the planet could be thought to have been missed, or something else went wrong; in any case the failed experiments wouldn't likely be reported by the media or be of interest to more than a tiny percentage of the population.

With regards to orbit observations, another potential explanation that hasn't been mentioned is Tychonic/Egyptian 'geoheliocentrism' (essentially a form of geocentrism). In it Mercury and Venus orbit the Sun (explaining transit), the Sun orbits the Earth, and the other planets orbit the Earth at an altitude higher than and orbit broader than the Sun-Mercury-Venus system. It seems possible that an elliptical-orbit form of the Tychonic model (known as Modified Tychonic / MT) is consistent with most observations, if relativity, which is fraught with indications of establishment promotion and fraud in the form of Einstein, is found to be a false concept.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 04:24:07 PM by pb1985 »