Boats and the Horizon?
« on: December 28, 2018, 11:30:33 AM »
I recently headed to the harbor and took come pictures and videos of boats.  From a layman perspective it does appear they are going over the "curve".  Any comments and critiques are appreciated.

First Video:


Second Video:

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Boats and the Horizon?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2018, 06:38:54 PM »
Read the chapter Perspective on the Sea in the book Earth Not a Globe.

What you posted is exactly what was predicted.

In recent years there has been some long duration timelapse photography suggesting that this effect, or at least some of these effects, may be due to the mechanism of bending of light rather than perspective. However, nonetheless, this is what Samuel Birley Rowbotham studied and predicted would happen on the sea, especially if the weather was not fair.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 06:56:03 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Boats and the Horizon?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2018, 07:58:26 PM »
This is another example of FE “heads I won, tails you lose” argument.

A common FE claim is that boats don’t disappear hull first over the horizon but can be “restored” with optical zoom. Actually the examples of this are always boats which are closer than the horizon but which are mere specks to the naked eye. Those can indeed be “restored” by optical zoom but they never disappeared in the first place.

But when video or pictures are produced clearly showing boats partially occluded by the horizon then waves or perspective are invoked.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Boats and the Horizon?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2018, 09:00:45 PM »
This is another example of FE “heads I won, tails you lose” argument.

A common FE claim is that boats don’t disappear hull first over the horizon but can be “restored” with optical zoom. Actually the examples of this are always boats which are closer than the horizon but which are mere specks to the naked eye. Those can indeed be “restored” by optical zoom but they never disappeared in the first place.

But when video or pictures are produced clearly showing boats partially occluded by the horizon then waves or perspective are invoked.

I don't believe that we ever challenged him, or anyone, to perform this experiment on any body of water with any water or weather conditions. That was a challenge you guys made up entirely in your head, without any research of the matter whatsoever. There was never such a challenge.

We have, however, always encouraged the reading of Earth Not a Globe, where its author studies such phenomena over several decades, and which forms the basis for the subject-matter.

Re: Boats and the Horizon?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2018, 09:08:49 PM »
Although being a Zetetic you don’t take his word for that 30 years of research because you prefer to do your own tests, yes?

I don’t really know what challenge you are referring to. The RE claim is that ships disappear hull first because they are going over a curve. This also explains the Turning Torso video.
FE variously claims that they don’t disappear hull first but only appear to and can be restored by optical zoom, but then when zoomed in photos or video clearly show the effect you claim it’s waves or perspective. Is this not “wanting your cake and eating it” reasoning?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Boats and the Horizon?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2018, 09:16:34 PM »
I don’t really know what challenge you are referring to.

That's because no challenge was made. This isn't a "heads I win, tails I win" situation. This is a "we clearly explained all of this over 150 years ago but you aren't reading the material despite our repeated recommendations" situation.

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Is this not “wanting your cake and eating it” reasoning?

Not at all. Rowbotham clearly describes on which kind of environments the experiment should be performed.

Re: Boats and the Horizon?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2018, 10:12:00 PM »
Your Wiki says:

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We know that this explanation is true because there are reports of half sunken ships restored by looking at them through telescopes. It has been found that the sinking ship effect effect is purely perceptual, that a good telescope with sufficient zoom will change the observer's perspective and bring the ship's hull back in full view. This is not possible if the ship were really behind a "hill of water."

So here you claim that ships don’t really sink behind a hill of water (sort of correctly actually, it’s not a hill, it’s a slope going away from you). You claim optical zoom restores them. I have yet to see an example of this - you posted one a while back but that was clearly a ship closer than the horizon which was just a speck, all optical zoom did was make it clear again.

So you claim that ships don’t actually sink behind the horizon. But when you’re shown clear evidence of ships doing just that you just claim it’s waves. That’s the heads I win, tails you lose reasoning.

I’ve explained multiple times why waves isn’t the explanation - in brief, a wave cannot hide more of an object than its own height unless the observer height is lower than the wave height. This is why sunset at sea would never happen if you’re at an altitude of more than, say, 10m.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Boats and the Horizon?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2018, 10:26:45 PM »
Evidence was provided on that page you are quoting. You just happened to cut it out of your selective quoting, in what I can only assume is dishonesty. There are quotes and links to Zetetic Cosmogony, and other sources.

The lack of resolution cause of the sinking effect is also described in Earth Not a Globe, with examples.

I would suggest that you and others read ENAG before presuming what we are and are not claiming.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 10:31:09 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Boats and the Horizon?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2018, 11:12:52 PM »
Evidence was provided on that page you are quoting.

By evidence you mean quotes of people claiming stuff? There are no photos or videos demonstrating the effect.
Being a Zetetic and an empiricist you of course don't take their word for it and have done your own tests, I presume.
Could you post the result here or maybe update the Wiki page with your findings?

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You just happened to cut it out of your selective quoting, in what I can only assume is dishonesty.
Well, I wasn't really looking at the evidence. I was just stating what your Wiki claims, not the evidence for it.
But OK, if you want me to have a look at the evidence, I'm game.

There's this quote from Thomas Winship
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"When a ship or any other object recedes from the observer on a level surface the highest part is always seen last by reason of perspective"
To which my response is "no it isn't, that isn't how perspective works at all". What is the evidence for that claim?
Literally all perspective means is that as things get further away they appear smaller. This is simply because the light from either end of the object meet at your eye at a smaller angle and thus the object forms a smaller image on your retina. So the distance between the rails at B appears smaller than the distance between the rails at A because the blue lines meet at a smaller angle than the orange ones:



There may be a point at which it is hard to distinguish distinct objects because of the limits of our vision. In that case optical zoom will "restore" them. But if those rails were going over a curve such that you couldn't see the rails at B because of the curve then no amount of optical zoom will restore them to view.
All his examples are basically just a ship far in the distance where a dark hull cannot be clearly distinguished from a dark sea. Yes, in that case optical zoom will help, but that isn't the sinking ship effect. Ships sink below the horizon because of the curve of the earth. Note how the optical zoom has failed to "restore" the hull of the ship on the right:



This is where your silly "waves" explanation is given, I've already explained why that doesn't work.
There are a couple of other examples on the Wiki page which make similar claims and then there's a claim from Chambers' Journal that a vessel could be seen from 200 miles away. Even on a flat earth I'd have to say that's bullshit, I don't believe you could see a ship from 200 miles even on a clear day, bearing in mind this was written in 1895 so the largest ships in the world wouldn't have been as big as they are now.

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The lack of resolution cause of the sinking effect is also described in Earth Not a Globe, with examples.
By "examples" you mean him just saying this is what he saw, or relating what someone else saw?
Again, being a Zetetic and Empiricist you will have done your own investigations and experiments and not just taken those at face value?
Lack of resolution doesn't cause a "sinking ship" effect unless the hull of the ship is dark and the top light and so the hull is more difficult to distinguish from the sea. But that isn't what the RE claims is the sinking ship effect, that's just an unclear object being made clear by optical zoom, the  hull isn't "restored", it was never hidden in the first place, just hard to see because of the distance and colour.

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I would suggest that you and others read ENAG before presuming what we are and are not claiming.
I was assuming your Wiki page and your posts on here are accurate representations of what you claim.
You variously claim that the sinking ship effect is caused by perspective if the hull can be "restored" or waves if it can't.
That is what I mean by "heads I win, tails you lose" reasoning.

You claim that ships don't sink behind the horizon and the hulls can be restored by optical zoom but provide no evidence of this.
When shown evidence where the hull is clearly behind the curve of the earth and can't be restored by optical zoom you then just say it's behind a wave despite waves not being able to occlude more than their own height unless the viewer height is lower than the waves which it rarely will be.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.