shootingstar

FET popularity
« on: December 26, 2018, 11:56:34 PM »
Given that suggestions about flat Earth theory have been circulating around since the early 1800s with Samuel Rowbotham seeming to be recognised as the founder of 'modern flat Earth hypotheses' I wonder why it is then flat Earth theory does not seem to have gained wide acceptance outside of a relative small section of the population.

Rowbothams main experimental evidence seems to have been his 'Bedford Experiment' which was carried at various times during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. That is long enough ago that if his results had been so convincing then why is this experiment not better known?

I think it is fair to say that now in the 21st century the vast majority of people across the world see the Earth as spherical and ridicule any and all suggestions that it could be anything else. Given that flat Earth theories are more than a century old why then is knowledge and acceptance of these theories still limited to a very small section of the worlds population?

Re: FET popularity
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2018, 12:02:01 AM »
Given that suggestions about flat Earth theory have been circulating around since the early 1800s with Samuel Rowbotham seeming to be recognised as the founder of 'modern flat Earth hypotheses' I wonder why it is then flat Earth theory does not seem to have gained wide acceptance outside of a relative small section of the population.

Rowbothams main experimental evidence seems to have been his 'Bedford Experiment' which was carried at various times during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. That is long enough ago that if his results had been so convincing then why is this experiment not better known?

I think it is fair to say that now in the 21st century the vast majority of people across the world see the Earth as spherical and ridicule any and all suggestions that it could be anything else. Given that flat Earth theories are more than a century old why then is knowledge and acceptance of these theories still limited to a very small section of the worlds population?
It is about what is required to determine the shape of the earth using measurements, observations, etc.  Tom and his team have no time or resources to achieve this.

shootingstar

Re: FET popularity
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2018, 12:53:10 AM »
I guess its a bit like an election where one  party has a landslide victory. While the choice of the majority wins out overall it doesn't change the views of the remaining minority.

Flat Earth theory never seems to have attracted the regular attention of the mainstream media. Publicity is hugely important in helping small organisations grow. I know there have been conferences held by flat Earth supporters but these don't seem to have been very sucessful in raising awareness of their beliefs outside of their own kind.

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2018, 09:01:35 PM »
I guess its a bit like an election where one  party has a landslide victory. While the choice of the majority wins out overall it doesn't change the views of the remaining minority.

Flat Earth theory never seems to have attracted the regular attention of the mainstream media. Publicity is hugely important in helping small organisations grow. I know there have been conferences held by flat Earth supporters but these don't seem to have been very sucessful in raising awareness of their beliefs outside of their own kind.

If there wasn't so much evidence that supports RE, then perhaps.  But as long as the response to "NASA photographed Earth from space.  It's a sphere." is "We've never been to space.  It's a conspiracy, and all space footage is faked.", mainstream media will steer clear of FET and leave it to the smaller media outlets.
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...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

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Do you have any evidence of reality?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2018, 09:42:49 PM »
mainstream media will steer clear of FET
If what you say is true, why does it contradict reality? This year alone, we've had coverage from the BBC, The Economist, Metro, Daily Mail, Newsweek, International Business Times, and many others. If those are "smaller media outlets", where are the big names hiding?
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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shootingstar

Re: FET popularity
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2018, 10:17:50 PM »
So what did they have to say about FET then Pete because I don't often hear the BBC talking about the Earth in terms of it being flat. Nor the other sources you mention.  Having said that I have seen some of the Daily Mails headlines and they certainly like to shall we say sensationalise things more often than not.  I admit that I did see the YouTube video recording of when some flat Earth believers appeared on ITVs This Morning programme and discussed the matter with Philip Schofield and Holly Wiloughby.  Not exactly a convincing performance from them was it.


You put on a very good show Pete. Convincing no but I applaud you for your efforts. Now lets see the fruits of those efforts appearing in the mainstream media regularly. Have you been in touch with Metogroup recently to see if they will change their weather maps to make them flat?  Convince them and I would be impressed. By the way how many members does the FES have currently?  And by that I mean FE believers.  You must have that information surely.  I don't want you to point me at the Members link in the website which quotes a figure of just over 4,200.  That includes the RET believers as well.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 10:36:18 PM by shootingstar »

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Offline markjo

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2018, 04:05:13 AM »
mainstream media will steer clear of FET
If what you say is true, why does it contradict reality? This year alone, we've had coverage from the BBC, The Economist, Metro, Daily Mail, Newsweek, International Business Times, and many others. If those are "smaller media outlets", where are the big names hiding?
*yawn*  Wake me up when FOX News gives you favorable coverage.  In the mean time, Ars Technica gave the FE movement (but not TFES) some coverage.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/11/why-does-flat-earth-belief-still-exist/
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: FET popularity
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2018, 09:02:37 AM »
mainstream media will steer clear of FET
If what you say is true, why does it contradict reality? This year alone, we've had coverage from the BBC, The Economist, Metro, Daily Mail, Newsweek, International Business Times, and many others. If those are "smaller media outlets", where are the big names hiding?
I’d say the society has had a fair amount of coverage, or maybe I should say the community. Those dudes who were laughed at on This Morning weren’t from here but they did represent the wider community of people who believe the earth is flat (or, in many cases, pretend to). So the fact that this is a thing has attracted a fair amount of publicity. But pretty much all of it has been in a mocking “hey, check out this lot and what they believe” way. I guess “no publicity is bad publicity” but don’t confuse attention with validation. No one is taking you seriously.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

shootingstar

Re: FET popularity
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2018, 09:20:01 AM »
Overall I agree. I think realistically it is fair to say that science, in partnership with technology has already done more than is necessary to show conclusively that the Earth is a globe and we have since gone on to measure it to a very high level of precision. There will always be a tiny minority (and it is a tiny minority by proportion) that continue to insist on an alternative view.  I don't ridicule those people as everyone is entitled to their point of view. Having an opinion though doesn't make it the right one.

I enjoy these discussions and I am not ashamed to say that I have even learned from the indirectly. In order to be sure that I am presenting correct facts and information I have had to revise topics that I have learned in the past but possibly forgotten since.

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2018, 02:43:37 PM »
mainstream media will steer clear of FET
If what you say is true, why does it contradict reality? This year alone, we've had coverage from the BBC, The Economist, Metro, Daily Mail, Newsweek, International Business Times, and many others. If those are "smaller media outlets", where are the big names hiding?

If you don't mind subtle undertones of ridicule in most of the coverage, then I guess it's progress.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

Quote from: totallackey
Do you have any evidence of reality?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2018, 03:06:58 PM »
If you don't mind subtle undertones of ridicule in most of the coverage, then I guess it's progress.
Another unsubstantiated statement. Sure, some of the articles contain a hint of ridicule. Putting aside the fact that this is of no concern to anyone, your claim that "most" of the coverage is like that is simply false, just like your previous claim.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2018, 04:07:11 PM »
If you don't mind subtle undertones of ridicule in most of the coverage, then I guess it's progress.
Another unsubstantiated statement. Sure, some of the articles contain a hint of ridicule. Putting aside the fact that this is of no concern to anyone, your claim that "most" of the coverage is like that is simply false, just like your previous claim.

I stand by my claim that there isn't a fair amount of coverage.  But, I guess we have different ideas about what that amount is. 
Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

Quote from: totallackey
Do you have any evidence of reality?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2018, 04:29:09 PM »
I stand by my claim that there isn't a fair amount of coverage.  But, I guess we have different ideas about what that amount is.
There's no space for "ideas" here. The number of articles and other media pieces is discrete and countable.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2018, 04:53:36 PM »
I stand by my claim that there isn't a fair amount of coverage.  But, I guess we have different ideas about what that amount is.
There's no space for "ideas" here. The number of articles and other media pieces is discrete and countable.

There's always space for ideas.  "fair amount" is a subjective term and can be correct for both of us.  You might think that it's a lot of coverage, and I may think that it isn't.  Just as one person might think a million bucks is a lot of money, but another doesn't.  It still doesn't change the discrete and countable value of $1,000,000.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

Quote from: totallackey
Do you have any evidence of reality?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2018, 05:00:42 PM »
"fair amount" is a subjective term and can be correct for both of us.
That's an interesting change of position from:

mainstream media will steer clear of FET and leave it to the smaller media outlets.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Facebook and Twitter!


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shootingstar

Re: FET popularity
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2018, 05:21:32 PM »
By whatever way or means Pete you seems to have overlooked to answer the questions I put towards you earlier in the thread.  I repeat them here in case you missed them or chose to ignore them.

Quote
You put on a very good show Pete. Convincing no but I applaud you for your efforts. Now lets see the fruits of those efforts appearing in the mainstream media regularly. Have you been in touch with Metogroup recently to see if they will change their weather maps to make them flat?  Convince them and I would be impressed. By the way how many members does the FES have currently?  And by that I mean FE believers.  You must have that information surely.  I don't want you to point me at the Members link in the website which quotes a figure of just over 4,200.  That includes the RET believers as well.

Re: FET popularity
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2018, 05:24:59 PM »
I stand by my claim that there isn't a fair amount of coverage.  But, I guess we have different ideas about what that amount is.
There's no space for "ideas" here. The number of articles and other media pieces is discrete and countable.
That is also true of the shape of the earth. There are no competing “ideas” about that amongst serious scientists. That’s why this will never be a mainstream belief. Any lingering doubt there might have been ended when the space race got going. But the psychology of people who still believe in a flat earth is interesting and the Internet makes it easier to spread niche ideas. I can understand an interest in the society.

EDIT: These are the sorts of articles I’ve seen about FE:

https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/26/heres-why-you-believe-earth-is-flat-and-its-not-because-youre-thick-7979786/

The focus is on the society and the psychology of those who subscribe to it, not the theory itself.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 06:01:59 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2018, 05:31:24 PM »
"fair amount" is a subjective term and can be correct for both of us.
That's an interesting change of position from:

mainstream media will steer clear of FET and leave it to the smaller media outlets.
I guess it is, Pete.  It must have been your interview with IBT that changed my position. 
Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

Quote from: totallackey
Do you have any evidence of reality?

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: FET popularity
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2018, 03:19:45 PM »
mainstream media will steer clear of FET
If what you say is true, why does it contradict reality? This year alone, we've had coverage from the BBC, The Economist, Metro, Daily Mail, Newsweek, International Business Times, and many others. If those are "smaller media outlets", where are the big names hiding?
*yawn*  Wake me up when FOX News gives you favorable coverage.  In the mean time, Ars Technica gave the FE movement (but not TFES) some coverage.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/11/why-does-flat-earth-belief-still-exist/


There is an argument to be made for "all coverage is good coverage" idea. The constant attention gives the flat earth community a platform for any evidence or arguments they actually do develop. If they were to turn up any serious evidence of government conspiracy or terrestrial flatness (something that 100s of hours of YouTube hasn't done yet) they could rush to the presses with it. I think if Pete wanted to do some major press release and really worked the media connections, he could get a statement onto some pretty sizable outlets. Attention is a resource one would want to use sparingly and strategically otherwise it loses its impact.

There was a time when someone could have told me the U.S. Federal Government is developing a system that can track and search all emails and cell phone calls made in North America. "They can see everything I write! They know who I'm calling!" It sounded crazy but it turns out that the guy in the tin foil hat was right all along.

Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

shootingstar

Re: FET popularity
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2018, 09:57:52 PM »
Absolutely. We created the technology that allows us to email and use our phones so of course everything is traceable. There are numerous topics that I would categorise as either conspiracy theories or ideologies and given the definition of an ideology I would say that describes FE belief more than a conspiracy.

Technology is widely used and abused for all sorts of reasons.  As long as FE people choose to not necessarily discredit but overlook in broad terms the evidence that technology has provided us with they will struggle to gain wide acceptance of their ideas. There are of course ideas that have been widely shunned in the past through lack of evidence which actually turned out to be true. Examples of such ideas are well documented around the Internet. While he was setting out his TGR Einstein did not believe in an expanding Universe even though his own equations predicted it. So he changed them to make the Universe 'stand still'. Soon after Hubble confirmed the expansion through observation and accordingly Einstein accepted he had been wrong.

I am sure there will be further such cases in the future but certain things are now known beyond reasonable doubt and there are many aspects of the modern world that would not work the way they do if we had got our interpretation of the shape of the planet wrong. Exciting time lie ahead certainly and the more we discover the more we realise there are still so many questions that we have still yet to find an answer to.