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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« on: December 26, 2018, 04:45:32 PM »
This sunrise taken from Pic du Canigó in late May 2015 in the French Pyrenees with sun rising over the Alps 240 miles away. (Photo credit: Beyond Horizons



The sun here was overhead the earth over 6200 miles away from Canigó, at a latitude of N19° as it was transiting over the South China Sea.

I got the location of the sun from TimeandDate.Com. How TimeandDate produced that data shouldn't be relevant, as long as there's no controversy over the truth of that data. As long as no one assumes that TimeandDate is using a globe model to derive its data, is everyone -- particularly flat earth proponents -- okay with that resource, or is there another preferred source for sun locating data on a particular date and time?

If there are no objections to the sun data itself, regardless of its deriviation: the three points -- photographer in the Pyranees, peak in the Alps and sun's zenith over the South China Sea -- align using a globe model.



--------------------------

A similar photo was taken a few years earlier by that group; this one of the setting sun over the Pyrenees at a different time of year (February vice May).

This is a photo of the setting sun taken from the plateau below Montagne Sainte-Victoire in south of France, near Marseille.


Taken on February 2nd, 2012 at 17:58 local time.

TimeandDate puts the location of the sun at that time at S16° 50', W71° 05'.



According to the photograph, these points should be in alignment:
Photographer @ N43°31', E05°35' (red star above)
Pic du Canigó @ N42°31', E02°27' (blue star above)
Sun @  S16° 50', W71° 05' (sun icon above)

I can show the alignment on a globe earth:




----------------------

I have not been able to get them to align on any existing flat earth models.

I invite anyone to show me how that can be accomplished.

Or, if not, can anyone explain what incorrect assumption I might be making to expect a model of the earth to plot the alignment we can see in the photographs?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 05:27:39 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2018, 04:54:54 PM »
I do not see any reason to object to the data, given its derivation process. You're using data for where the Sun would be if the Earth were round as per the mainstream model. You are also forgetting that in most FE models, optics isn't quite as straight-forward as you assume. It is not particularly surprising to me that if you assume the Round Earth model, you're going to arrive at the conclusion that the Earth is round.

I continue not to see why this thread would belong in the upper fora. You've introduced no new information compared to your last thread, and your assumptions are exactly what they were before, and they've already been challenged. If you are not willing to adjust your arguments to persuade those who disagree, why are you here?
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Online Rushy

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2018, 05:01:45 PM »
Quote
I got the location of the sun from TimeandDate.Com

In other words, you assumed a round earth model, then created the location of the sun based on that model, and are now complaining it doesn't match a flat earth. This is circular logic. You can't make assumptions to prove your assumptions. You need to be viewing the location directly, not mathematically obtaining the location based on formulae you don't know or understand.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2018, 05:11:44 PM »
I do not see any reason to object to the data, given its derivation process. You're using data for where the Sun would be if the Earth were round as per the mainstream model.
So TimeAndDate is a globe earth data source. It is not "pattern-based" as Tom has alleged?

If so, you're right. Using "data for where the Sun would be if the Earth were round" would obviously favor a round earth model.

So TimeandDate is out. So is Stellarium since that is (I assume) also data based on a globe earth model.  (Do all flat earthers agree on this or do others feel Timeanddate data is okay and agnostic about the model since data is pattern-based?)

You are also forgetting that in most FE models, optics isn't quite as straight-forward as you assume. It is not particularly surprising to me that if you assume the Round Earth model, you're going to arrive at the conclusion that the Earth is round.
I assume it because I've seen no FE model claim optics is "bendy" in the lateral direction. If I'm making incorrect assumptions, I invite you to show me how it should be, or can be, done in the FE model rather than just tell me I'm not doing it right or assuming things.

I continue not to see why this thread would belong in the upper fora. You've introduced no new information compared to your last thread, and your assumptions are exactly what they were before, and they've already been challenged. If you are not willing to adjust your arguments to persuade those who disagree, why are you here?
The information isn't new. But the information wasn't the reason why the previous topic was moved to AR. It was my refusal to respond to critics. I'm responding now to correct that. The information is worth of an upper forum discussion. Isn't it? It can be a good discussion.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2018, 05:17:38 PM »
Quote
I got the location of the sun from TimeandDate.Com

In other words, you assumed a round earth model, then created the location of the sun based on that model, and are now complaining it doesn't match a flat earth. This is circular logic. You can't make assumptions to prove your assumptions. You need to be viewing the location directly, not mathematically obtaining the location based on formulae you don't know or understand.
I didn't think I was assuming a round earth model. Like I stated above in response to Pete, I assumed everyone -- flat earther and globe earther alike -- was okay with the sun data provided by TimeandDate.

That's apparently not true. TimeandDate is based on a round earth model? It's not just pattern-based information?

I'm also not complaining about the Flat Earth Model. I'm asking for a flat earth explanation for how those points on earth can be aligned. I can do it with a globe. I can't with a flat earth. This time, I didn't say it can't be done. I said I can't do it. I'm asking you to show me how.

If the sun is depicted in the wrong place, then where should it be? What source does a flat earth model use to position the correct location of the sun?

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Online Rushy

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2018, 05:19:53 PM »
FET uses the position of the sun as evidence of the position of the sun, not a website.

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2018, 05:28:45 PM »
FET uses the position of the sun as evidence of the position of the sun, not a website.
Really?

Using FET's method, where over the earth was the sun in this photograph (February 2nd, 2012 at 17:58 in South of France)




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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2018, 05:38:30 PM »
Using FET's method, where over the earth was the sun in this photograph (February 2nd, 2012 at 17:58 in South of France)
That's a fantastic question, but you're asking it nearly 7 years too late for anyone to go out and check for you.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2018, 05:47:11 PM »
Using FET's method, where over the earth was the sun in this photograph (February 2nd, 2012 at 17:58 in South of France)
That's a fantastic question, but you're asking it nearly 7 years too late for anyone to go out and check for you.
That's an amazing answer.  Brings to mind a zetetic experiment we can perform that won't suffer from such an obstacle.

Stand by.

Disregard for now. Tom Bishop presented an excellent exercise to answer this point. If it should prove not fruitful, we can revisit the zetetic observation I was thinking about.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 12:42:45 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2018, 06:05:27 PM »
I do not see any reason to object to the data, given its derivation process. You're using data for where the Sun would be if the Earth were round as per the mainstream model. You are also forgetting that in most FE models, optics isn't quite as straight-forward as you assume. It is not particularly surprising to me that if you assume the Round Earth model, you're going to arrive at the conclusion that the Earth is round.

I continue not to see why this thread would belong in the upper fora. You've introduced no new information compared to your last thread, and your assumptions are exactly what they were before, and they've already been challenged. If you are not willing to adjust your arguments to persuade those who disagree, why are you here?
Both FET and RET agree on the time where the sun should be at its zenith. Both are based on the same patterns. The FE model also has the earth moving in a circle around one of the tropics, depending on season.

So the objection that the logic is circular is ill-founded. We are here to discuss assumptions and theory, are we not?

FET uses the position of the sun as evidence of the position of the sun, not a website.
Website is based on the patterns of a sun circling around a flat earth.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 06:07:00 PM by edby »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2018, 06:29:57 PM »
Quote from: Bobby
TimeandDate puts the location of the sun at that time at S16° 50', W71° 05'.



According to the photograph, these points should be in alignment:
Photographer @ N43°31', E05°35' (red star above)
Pic du Canigó @ N42°31', E02°27' (blue star above)
Sun @  S16° 50', W71° 05' (sun icon above)

I can show the alignment on a globe earth:


The NOAA Solar Calculator shows the following. See the red line below:



Lat-Lon converter here

Suncalc also echos the same:

« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 06:59:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2018, 06:56:16 PM »
Are you saying Suncalc and NOAA web resources are acceptably agnostic as to their underlying earth shape model?

Or just that globe-based models aren't consistent (per you) and thus none are reliable sources of sun position data?


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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2018, 07:37:38 PM »
Are you saying Suncalc and NOAA web resources are acceptably agnostic as to their underlying earth shape model?

Or just that globe-based models aren't consistent (per you) and thus none are reliable sources of sun position data?

It's almost like Tom already told you these websites are based on predictive models and not on a singular, accurate round earth model.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2018, 08:06:24 PM »
Are you saying Suncalc and NOAA web resources are acceptably agnostic as to their underlying earth shape model?

Or just that globe-based models aren't consistent (per you) and thus none are reliable sources of sun position data?

It's almost like Tom already told you these websites are based on predictive models and not on a singular, accurate round earth model.

Is Rushy right about what you mean, Tom?  They're based on globe earth models but they aren't consistent?


Quote from: Bobby
TimeandDate puts the location of the sun at that time at S16° 50', W71° 05'.

The NOAA Solar Calculator shows the following. See the red line below:

(Tom's image deleted from quote for display clarity. To view, see original quoted post.)

The NOAA Solar Calculator shows the sun to be directly overhead at the sun coordinates given above, which happens to be solar noon there just at the time the photograph was taken.



And here's the NOAA  bearing line overlayed with a globe-based map.



« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 09:21:37 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2018, 09:43:42 PM »
Okay, let us now use that very same logic for how the sun is rising and setting for today, December 26th, 2018, at the tip of Argentina:

Reminder: The sun moves North-South between the Tropic of Cancer and The Tropic of Capricorn over the course of the year:



According to the SunCalc, for an observer at the tip of Argentina the sun is rising up from the south today:

http://suncalc.net/#/-50.9082,-70.3546,3/2018.12.26/00:23



NOAA Solar Calculator:

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/



Now lets go to Google Maps and, using the measuring tool, lets see what that line for the sunrise looks like on a globe, to get that line to connect to somewhere on the Tropic of Capricorn:



If the earth is a globe, with a far away sun, which travels North-South between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn, could you help me understand why the sun would be rising up over Antarctica (or near it, depending on positioning) for an observer at the tip of Argentina today?

Feel free to play around with the measuring tool on the Google Maps website. It is accessible through by right-clicking on the map. For my replication of the angles, the path either passed over Antarctica, or was near it. I believe that explaining this point would be crucial for many of the assumptions we are making here on this topic.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 10:28:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2018, 10:38:54 PM »
Sure. Give me a few minutes to gen up some graphics. I anticipate we'll find that the direct line of sight on a globe doesn't cross over Antarctica. Suncalc's bearing line relates to the graphic overlay and not the projection of the earth. But hang on, I'll explain better and show how it works on a globe.

In the meantime, perhaps you can take a moment yourself and clarify the answer to my earlier question and which Rushy answered for you. Is he correct about what your point is about these Web sites?

Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2018, 11:27:40 PM »
Sure. Give me a few minutes to gen up some graphics. I anticipate we'll find that the direct line of sight on a globe doesn't cross over Antarctica. Suncalc's bearing line relates to the graphic overlay and not the projection of the earth. But hang on, I'll explain better and show how it works on a globe.

In the meantime, perhaps you can take a moment yourself and clarify the answer to my earlier question and which Rushy answered for you. Is he correct about what your point is about these Web sites?
Surely this is available online, Tom could look it up.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2018, 11:45:46 PM »
If the earth is a globe, with a far away sun, which travels North-South between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn, could you help me understand why the sun would be rising up over Antarctica (or near it, depending on positioning) for an observer at the tip of Argentina today?

Feel free to play around with the measuring tool on the Google Maps website. It is accessible through by right-clicking on the map. For my replication of the angles, the path either passed over Antarctica, or was near it. I believe that explaining this point would be crucial for many of the assumptions we are making here on this topic.

I used Punta Arenas in Chile as an observer's location. I also used Suncalc to roughly find where it thinks the Sun was when it was rising from the vantage point of someone in Punta Arenas: just a hair north of the Tropic of Capricorn, west of Madigascar:



The green horizontal line is the Tropic of Capricorn. Look at how it plots on Google Maps:



Overlay those two:



Look at it depicted on a globe graphic rather than a projection of a globe:



The path between Punta Arenas and the sun location over a globe earth when it is seen rising in Punta Arenas this morning was a great circle. It's straight on a globe, and becomes warped into a curve when projected onto a flat surface. It does not cross over Antarctica.

Does that makes sense?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 11:47:56 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2018, 11:59:35 PM »
Sure, that might be more reflective of the location of the rising sun under that suncalc model.

But, if the earth is a globe and the sun is so far north, why would an observer at the tip of Argentina see the sun rise from just north of Antarctica?

One would think that the sun wouldn't rise from such a southern angle south of the sun.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 12:04:37 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Matching Observed Alignment of the Sun on Earth Models
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2018, 12:06:20 AM »
Because that's the direct line of sight on a globe.

Take a globe. Stretch a string from Punta Arenas to that spot on the Tropic of Capricorn just west of Madagascar. That's the path.

One would think that the sun wouldn't rise from such a southern angle south of the sun.
One might think that if he's thinking the earth is flat. But whether you believe it is or isn't, to understand this you have to think as if the earth is a globe. Then it should make sense.

IF the earth is a globe, the sun WILL rise in southern Chile and Argentina and the Falklands from that angle even when the sun is on the Tropic of Capricorn. That's evidence of a globe.

Now, the question for you is, do you believe Suncalc is right? Does the sun really rise from the ESE, contrary to what one might think?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 12:10:19 AM by Bobby Shafto »