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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Request Review of Mod Decision
« on: December 23, 2018, 04:19:04 PM »
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11658.msg177339#msg177339

I believe this to be abuse of moderator privileges.

1. Endorses off topic derailment of upper forum discussion
2. Done so with ad hominem

I've had issues with this moderator before. As a result, I have chosen to ignore him and not engage, particularly when he attempts to provoke me with postings that are not made in his capacity as moderator. Now he's moved a topic to Angry Ranting because I refuse to engage him.

The topic I initiated was about sun azimuth. It was being pulled off topic by misunderstanding of some participants. I asked politely that it remain on topic. Rather than help, this moderate used insult and exercised his power in reaction to his own affront to being ignored.

This was a good discussion. Not a "monologue " Violated no rules. Was on topic for the forum. If any action was justified it would have been to split the issue that Tom Bishop raised into a separate upper forum topic.

The only angry ranting in the discussion was the moderator's. I request review by an administrator.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Request Review of Mod Decision
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2018, 04:25:15 PM »
Bobby, it was pointed out to you, in polite terms, that you're either falsifying your data through malice or failing at producing diagrams through incompetence. You chose to ignore that, together with other criticisms of your methodology. You provided no clarification when that was requested, instead focusing on pleasing exclusively the RE crowd. You can do so, and you're welcome to continue, but I will insist that you do so in the free-for-all zone.

The upper fora are there for a bilateral discussion. If you just want to post about how the Earth is round and only respond to people who say "Ah, yes, quite", you'll need to do so in the appropriate board.

You have been issued with no warning, and no other action has been taken against you. I've also issued you with advance notice of what would happen if you didn't follow the debate format. The fact that you didn't see it through your own voluntary choices (of which I was unaware) can not and will not impact my judgement.

You should also double-check what an "ad hominem" is.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 04:28:19 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Request Review of Mod Decision
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2018, 04:39:30 PM »
Now that both plaintiff and moderator have been heard from, I request administrative review of this moderator's action. If you have any questions for me, please ask here or via PM, but I will not debate with this individual, either as a board member or in his capacity as a moderator.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Request Review of Mod Decision
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2018, 02:44:43 PM »
That's not exactly how this works. Your "refusal" to engage with the rules of this forum or those who enforce them won't make you exempt from them. As it turns out, sovereign citizens tend not to get far in these sort of arguments.

Nobody's asking you to "debate" me. Indeed, I'm simply stating why your post got moved, and what you can do differently to stop wasting your time in the future. What you choose to do with that information is of very little significance to me, personally, but I do want to try and make sure your decisions are informed.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 03:02:55 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Request Review of Mod Decision
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2018, 06:36:01 PM »
That's not exactly how this works.
If I may. Isn’t it?

Isn’t one of the points of this section to question mod decisions. Bobby is questioning one of yours. He has said why he feels it unfair, you’ve explained your decision. Surely now it’s time for someone else (as in one of the other mods or admin) to weigh in. I think we all know how that will go but if the rest of this thread is you saying why you were right then that’s not very helpful.


If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Request Review of Mod Decision
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2018, 06:47:55 PM »
The reason we're in this situation in the first place is that Bobby ignored my advance notice of what would happen. His repeated attempts at ignoring moderation in the hopes that it'll just result in a consequence-free forum experience for him are, well, as effective as you can plainly see.

So, yes, requesting review is fine*, and I already spoke to Parsifal about this. Nonetheless, it remains the case that ignoring moderation and getting upset that you still got moderated is "not how any of this works". Refusing to try and understand why action was taken against you is not going to help revert that action, either.


* - with the caveat that Bobby requests for every decision that affects him to be reviewed; I'll leave it to the reader to determine how sensible that is
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 06:50:57 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Request Review of Mod Decision
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2018, 12:47:41 AM »
To me, it appears that Tom repeatedly tried to discuss the incorrect assumptions Bobby's globe model was making, but Bobby chose to just say Tom's wrong without actually engaging his points. While I'm not sure the entire thread belongs in AR, I do see why Pete would consider the thread to be pushing the limits of what's allowed in the upper forum. The upper forums are there for discussions with people like Tom, they're not there for you to just pretend Tom's and other's points don't exist.

You have 99.9% of the world to circlejerk RET points. Please avoid doing so in the 0.1% of the world that bothers with critical thinking skills.

In the future I should suggest Bobby actually read and understand what Tom is saying, because it sounds like Bobby was doing neither.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 12:49:21 AM by Rushy »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Request Review of Mod Decision
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2018, 01:43:23 AM »
I understand what Tom was saying.
I didn't just say he was wrong.
I twice engaged his point explaining why it was and remains irrelevant and off topic.
He chose not to address that and persisted in pushing his off topic point.
Others (RET) were engaging him on his point.
I asked that they take it to another topic.

Was the topic moved to AR because of that conflict?

Is me asking for an irrelevant side debate be taken elsewhere "suppression?" I did not ignore Tom as Svarrior said. I just didn't want Tom diverting the topic. I know exactly what Tom is on about. It's totally incorrect to say I don't understand and refuse to address "incorrect assumptions." It's exactly the reverse. He made incorrect assumptions about my argument (as does anyone who thinks Tom was on point. I'm happy to explain yet again in the topic itself.)

Now, the issue remains. Is the appeal of the moderator's action going to be reviewed by an administrator? If that's Parsifal, I am eager to see how he interprets how that discussion topic went and if it warranted removal to Angry Ranting for my behavior.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 01:46:17 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Request Review of Mod Decision
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2018, 03:18:38 AM »
The discussion shouldn't have been moved to AR. 

Bobby did a classic Zetetic observation experiment.  It was a nicely done exercise.  There were some diversionary arguments along the way that didn't criticize the experiment itself but only talked about irrelevant things.  The only possible criticisms were either the accuracy of the azimuth measurement made by the picture taker or the position of the Sun's zenith at the time the picture was taken.  No one questioned the position of the Sun's zenith even though Bobby brought it to everyone's attention.  I can understand why Bobby was so frustrated.  Bobbies plots on the flat earth maps were about as accurate as possible.  It was a simple exercise.  Take a known point and draw a line off in the direction of 061 degrees relative to the North.  I really can't see where Pete could have any problem with the plot. It was a coincidence in this case but even if the top of the map was the North Pole the line plot would have been as accurate.  If the Sun didn't intersect with the line at it's known zenith point then there is a problem with the flat earth map.  If the suns position was even close to the plotted line I could see some reason to invalidate the experiment but it wasn't even close.

I am a biased observer.  If I were on the 'jury' I would vote in favor of Bobby based solely on the presented evidence.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 03:32:18 AM by RonJ »
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Re: Request Review of Mod Decision
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2018, 12:05:54 PM »
The discussion shouldn't have been moved to AR. 

Bobby did a classic Zetetic observation experiment.  It was a nicely done exercise...
I am a biased observer.  If I were on the 'jury' I would vote in favor of Bobby based solely on the presented evidence.
Except the, "...nicely done experiment," contained obvious errors of angle measurement...

There is no jury, thank god...

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Request Review of Mod Decision
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2018, 12:10:30 PM »
Yes, it's great to hear that the man who tried measuring angles on his computer screen with a protractor (with a margin of error of 17%, somehow) has an objection to things that have nothing to do with why the thread was moved.

As I said, I already spoke to Parsifal about this. We didn't move the thread back after that discussion. Perhaps he'll choose to comment with more details, perhaps not. In the meantime, since nobody is discussing the actual reason behind the thread move (Bobby's refusal to talk to his opposition, which is independent of whether you personally think the opposition is in the right), I'm going to lock this.

Mods and admins can still respond to locked threads, so we're not losing anything of value.
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