Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« on: December 11, 2018, 06:44:05 PM »
This morning I caught a photo of some beautifully-lit clouds:



Those clouds are lit from the bottom, and in fact appear brighter than the white things in the image. The lit sides face the sunrise, which suggests that they are being lit by the sun.

I don't think that a sun that's thousands of miles high can light clouds that are less than 10 miles high, but I'm curious to hear what that the FE side makes of this.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 07:47:04 PM by junker »
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Offline junker

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2018, 07:49:41 PM »
FYI, I edited your post/image to a different version that doesn't include the geotags. I assume you don't want people knowing exactly where you live.
Wait, is Thork gay or does he just have a thing for lipstick?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2018, 08:27:10 PM »
If you were at the altitude of the reddish areas in the clouds, at that moment, do you think that you would be seeing a reddish sunset at the horizon?

Offline Spingo

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2018, 08:31:31 PM »
If you were at the altitude of the reddish areas in the clouds, at that moment, do you think that you would be seeing a reddish sunset at the horizon?

It’s actually a sunrise if you read the post correctly. For his perspective give the horizon would indeed be red. For someone 1000 miles to the east I would be late morning and bright, while 1000 miles to the west it will still be dark. Same sun at a constant brightness but different perspectives due to location.

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2018, 08:46:15 PM »
What a great photo .
I saw something interesting on the way home yesterday.
The sun had gone down below the horizon of the mountain ridge to the west of me. Even though I could no longer see the sun the bottom of the patchy clouds above me were lite up. My elevation at that point is 125 feet. I could also see the shadow line of the mountain ridge to the wast cast onto the mountains to the east which are 3,000 feet higher in elevation than the ones to the west are.  I ascend up into the mountains to the east to get home. You ascend quit rapidly from 125 feet in elevation to 3,500 in elevation.
I acceded  above the shadow line where I could see a portion of the sun above the horizon and still see the bottom of the clouds lite up. Quite beautiful.

Now, I'm going to describe a phenomena I witness quite often in these mountains.
A lot of times there will be two or more layers of clouds at different elevations due to air temps and types of clouds.
One layer will be dens and cold air has it at a very low elevation far below the peaks on the mountains while the other clouds will be much higher than the mountains.
As the sun sets, I'm descending the mountain from above the lower layer of clouds and can see the sun as it shins on both the TOP of the lower layer and BOTTOM of the top layer. Quite a beautiful sight I must say.
I watch the sun sink below the lower layer and can no longer see the sun but still see the bottom of the top layer still lit up.
As I descend below the bottom layer once again the sun becomes viable and I see both layers of clouds lite up on their bottoms.
Eventually the sun drops below the horizon and of course for a short period of time the bottoms of both layers of clouds are still lite up.

Here's a part of this phenomena that shows curvature along with sun set rather the sun just moving off in the distance.
You can see the bottoms of the clouds lite up at a greater distance towards the horizon long after the ones closer to you go dark.
That is pretty good evidence the sun sets over a curvature rather than it just getting farther and farther away while remaining at 3,000 feet above the earth.

By the way I saw your signature before you changed it

Also clouds can be 6,000 feet, about 1 mile above the ground or lower from the ground trapped in temperature layers such as I witness in my area. A far reach from 3,000 miles.
 
 
 
 

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2018, 08:52:44 PM »


San Diego, 40 minutes before sunrise on the morning of November 14th..

According to TimeandDate, the sun was over the South Atlantic off the coast of Brazil.

That's over 6200 miles away from San Diego.
The sun had risen in El Paso, TX. (600 miles to the east)
The sun was just about to rise in Tucson, AZ. (365 miles to the east)

The clouds being illuminated were at an altitude of ~15,000 ft., 50-100 miles SE of San Diego. 

In answer to Tom's question, someone at the altitude and location of the illuminated clouds would have seen the sun, risen above the horizon.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 08:54:37 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2018, 08:53:52 PM »
If you were at the altitude of the reddish areas in the clouds, at that moment, do you think that you would be seeing a reddish sunset at the horizon?
You'd see a reddish sunrise, since I took the picture this morning, but yes.

FYI, I edited your post/image to a different version that doesn't include the geotags. I assume you don't want people knowing exactly where you live.
I thought that I blocked location services to Camera… either way thanks.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2018, 09:13:54 PM »
If you were at the altitude of the reddish areas in the clouds, at that moment, do you think that you would be seeing a reddish sunset at the horizon?
You'd see a reddish sunrise, since I took the picture this morning, but yes.

Then it seems that your question has been answered. Those clouds are seeing a reddish sun at the horizon

Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2018, 09:28:23 PM »
If you were at the altitude of the reddish areas in the clouds, at that moment, do you think that you would be seeing a reddish sunset at the horizon?
You'd see a reddish sunrise, since I took the picture this morning, but yes.

Then it seems that your question has been answered. Those clouds are seeing a reddish sun at the horizon
Not my point. The clouds are illuminated from the bottom, which means that, if the Earth is flat and the sun is thousands of miles above it, then it must be something other than the sun. The reddish sun at the horizon is the RE explanation.
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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2018, 09:32:19 PM »
If you were at the altitude of the reddish areas in the clouds, at that moment, do you think that you would be seeing a reddish sunset at the horizon?
You'd see a reddish sunrise, since I took the picture this morning, but yes.

Then it seems that your question has been answered. Those clouds are seeing a reddish sun at the horizon
Not my point. The clouds are illuminated from the bottom, which means that, if the Earth is flat and the sun is thousands of miles above it, then it must be something other than the sun. The reddish sun at the horizon is the RE explanation.
But the FEH perspective hypothesis says the clouds are 'seeing' the sun at the horizon, thus the light is coming up from that 'level' to strike them. This is part of why Bobby (and myself tbh) feel the 'bendy light' hypothesis works better for FE, than perspective. FE perspective is basically 'the Earth is flat, so this is how things must be' and is thus near impossible to falsify or prove. 'Bendy light' has the potential for both of those things to be true of it. Which tbh is probably why it fell out of favor.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2018, 09:44:02 PM »
If you were at the altitude of the reddish areas in the clouds, at that moment, do you think that you would be seeing a reddish sunset at the horizon?
You'd see a reddish sunrise, since I took the picture this morning, but yes.

Then it seems that your question has been answered. Those clouds are seeing a reddish sun at the horizon
Not my point. The clouds are illuminated from the bottom, which means that, if the Earth is flat and the sun is thousands of miles above it, then it must be something other than the sun. The reddish sun at the horizon is the RE explanation.

If those clouds were a mirror, would you see the sun at the horizon?

That's what the clouds are in this case; a mirror. Those clouds a little higher up in altitude are seeing a sun that is higher above the horizon, and which is not sending out as much red light.

Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2018, 09:46:24 PM »
But the FEH perspective hypothesis says the clouds are 'seeing' the sun at the horizon, thus the light is coming up from that 'level' to strike them. This is part of why Bobby (and myself tbh) feel the 'bendy light' hypothesis works better for FE, than perspective. FE perspective is basically 'the Earth is flat, so this is how things must be' and is thus near impossible to falsify or prove. 'Bendy light' has the potential for both of those things to be true of it. Which tbh is probably why it fell out of favor.
Gee, it's almost like light bends with the differential equation dy/dx ∝ y2sin(x-x0).

Seriously though, if light doesn't go in straight lines, then how does it move and how does it preserve Newton's third law?

If you were at the altitude of the reddish areas in the clouds, at that moment, do you think that you would be seeing a reddish sunset at the horizon?
You'd see a reddish sunrise, since I took the picture this morning, but yes.

Then it seems that your question has been answered. Those clouds are seeing a reddish sun at the horizon
Not my point. The clouds are illuminated from the bottom, which means that, if the Earth is flat and the sun is thousands of miles above it, then it must be something other than the sun. The reddish sun at the horizon is the RE explanation.

If those clouds were a mirror, would you see the sun at the horizon?

That's what the clouds are in this case; a mirror. Those clouds a little higher up in altitude are seeing a sun that is higher above the horizon, and which is not sending out as much red light.
Clouds aren't mirrors.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 09:50:29 PM by 9 out of 10 doctors agree »
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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2018, 09:59:12 PM »
If you were at the altitude of the reddish areas in the clouds, at that moment, do you think that you would be seeing a reddish sunset at the horizon?
You'd see a reddish sunrise, since I took the picture this morning, but yes.

Then it seems that your question has been answered. Those clouds are seeing a reddish sun at the horizon
To start with Tom what do the colors of the clouds have to do with the OP question?
That's off topic.
Back on topic. How does the light from the sun reflect off the bottom of clouds that are no more than 3-3/4 to 4 miles up and as low as 1 miles up when the sun is claimed by FES wiki to be 3,000 miles up.

But to answer your question. "If you were at the altitude of the reddish areas in the clouds, at that moment, do you think that you would be seeing a reddish sunset at the horizon?" The answer is  NO, Not only do I not think so I no for a fact that the sun is a much brighter orange and yellow than the color of the clouds when looking at the phenomena from the vantage point of the elevation of the clouds.
As I described in my earlier post, I've been there. 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2018, 10:03:24 PM »
Clouds aren't mirrors.

Sure they are. You don't believe that we are seeing reflected light?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2018, 10:08:07 PM »
If those clouds were a mirror, would you see the sun at the horizon?

That's what the clouds are in this case; a mirror. Those clouds a little higher up in altitude are seeing a sun that is higher above the horizon, and which is not sending out as much red light.

I can't picture this.

With h2>h1, show me how that can be possible.


Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2018, 10:09:33 PM »
Clouds aren't mirrors.

Sure they are. You don't believe that we are seeing reflected light?
We're not seeing reflected light. Do you see the landscape miles away when it's overcast?
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Offline markjo

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2018, 10:16:50 PM »
Clouds aren't mirrors.

Sure they are. You don't believe that we are seeing reflected light?
If the bottom of the clouds are reflecting the sun light, then that means that the sun light must be coming from below the bottom of the clouds, right?  How does that work in FET?
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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2018, 10:18:06 PM »
Clouds aren't mirrors.

Sure they are. You don't believe that we are seeing reflected light?
We're not seeing reflected light. Do you see the landscape miles away when it's overcast?
Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn, but I'd agree with Tom that clouds illuminated by the sun are reflecting the sun's light. Clouds aren't self-illuminating. The reddish glow on the underside of clouds is reflected light from the sun setting or rising.

"Mirror" might be an exaggeration since we aren't seeing the sun in the clouds, but we are seeing the reflected light from the sun on the clouds.

My question, though, however you want to put is, is how is the sun getting an angle on the "mirror" for its light to be reflected? Perspective doesn't gain the sun that angle.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2018, 10:21:26 PM »
If those clouds were a mirror, would you see the sun at the horizon?

That's what the clouds are in this case; a mirror. Those clouds a little higher up in altitude are seeing a sun that is higher above the horizon, and which is not sending out as much red light.

I can't picture this.

With h2>h1, show me how that can be possible.



h1 and h2 are not constant due to perspective. In that illustration the lands are not ascending as they recede, for example.

The lands ascend in altitude, the sun (or the image of the sun) descends in altitude, and everything meets at a finite distance away, rather than the infinite distance away as imagined in the Continuous Universe model of the Ancient Greeks.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 10:24:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Spingo

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Re: Illumination of clouds' undersides at sunrise
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2018, 10:27:22 PM »


San Diego, 40 minutes before sunrise on the morning of November 14th..

According to TimeandDate, the sun was over the South Atlantic off the coast of Brazil.

That's over 6200 miles away from San Diego.
The sun had risen in El Paso, TX. (600 miles to the east)
The sun was just about to rise in Tucson, AZ. (365 miles to the east)

The clouds being illuminated were at an altitude of ~15,000 ft., 50-100 miles SE of San Diego. 

In answer to Tom's question, someone at the altitude and location of the illuminated clouds would have seen the sun, risen above the horizon.

Nice shot Bobby.