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Offline MCToon

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Summing the interior angles of a triangle on a flat surface will always be 180 degrees.  The sum of the interior angles of a triangle on the surface of a sphere must be greater than 180 degrees and less than 540 degrees.

Pilots have successfully used Operational Navigation Charts (ONC) for decades.  These maps work, if they didn't, flights would get lost, run out of fuel, etc.  Planes would have crashed in large numbers, the people that own the planes would stop using faulty charts to protect their costly assets.

I used paper ONC charts to plot out a route around three airports, then pieced together the paper charts.  These airports have regular weekly flights in each direction.  The great circle routes form a spherical triangle, the sum of the interior angles of this triangle is 263 degrees.  A complete impossibility on a flat earth.  The projected great circle distances for each leg match the time taken for each flight based on the air speed for the airplanes flying each flight.

Here is the video documenting this:


I also redid the route for arbitrary points on the globe, not associated to airports to accurately meet the exact requirements of a challenge of exactly 90 degrees at each turn:


This entry satisfied the challenge and was declared to be the winning entry, though the challenge issuer welched and claimed the challenge had been closed.  He had clearly stated numerous times that in-progress entries would be accepted.  No matter, as stated in the video, I was not going to accept any of the money, half to charity, half to be held for winnings in future challenges.

So, as ONC charts must be accurate and have not, to my knowledge, been proven to have errors, this is solid evidence of a spherical earth.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline Tom Bishop

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I am not sure what you are claiming. Are you claiming that planes fly in perfectly straight lines without regard to Government waypoints, the airspace of foreign nations, and use a protractor when turning?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 09:22:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Reproducing this flight path on any FE map would look very different from a triangle. Unsurprisingly, a flawed assumption leads to a flawed conclusion.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Facebook and Twitter!


*mic stays stationary and earth accelerates upwards towards it*

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Offline stack

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Reproducing this flight path on any FE map would look very different from a triangle. Unsurprisingly, a flawed assumption leads to a flawed conclusion.

What's an "FE map"?

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Offline stack

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I am not sure what you are claiming. Are you claiming that planes fly in perfectly straight lines without regard to Government waypoints, the airspace of foreign nations, and use a protractor when turning?

You might want to familiarize yourself with the challenge itself. There are additional parameters FOH posted in other videos. Here's the original:


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Offline Tom Bishop

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I see that. But what are we supposed to be discussing here? These routes are pretty unrealistic.

Further, in the videos the author admits that some of the charts were unavailabile and shows us the piece that was missing. Therefore he did not successfully map out the routes. Is he expecting the man with the little mermaid glasses will award him $100,000 based on missing maps?

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Offline stack

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I see that. But what are we supposed to be discussing here? These routes are pretty unrealistic.

Further, in the videos the author admits that some of the charts were unavailabile and shows us the piece that was missing. Therefore he did not successfully map out the routes. Is he expecting the man with the little mermaid glasses will award him $100,000 based on missing maps?

MCToon won the challenge. Now the money, well that's a whole other thing. I don't think, by the look of his YT presence, FOH has enough cash for a pack of Marlboros.


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Offline stack

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I see that. But what are we supposed to be discussing here? These routes are pretty unrealistic.

One of the points here is that Operational Navigation Charts (ONC) have been used successfully for decades for air travel/transport. ONC's are sphere based.

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Offline MCToon

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I see that. But what are we supposed to be discussing here? These routes are pretty unrealistic.

Further, in the videos the author admits that some of the charts were unavailabile and shows us the piece that was missing. Therefore he did not successfully map out the routes. Is he expecting the man with the little mermaid glasses will award him $100,000 based on missing maps?

Oops, someone didn't watch the second video.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline Tom Bishop

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I disagree with the idea that is based on a sphere. Here is some information for you on how the process of mapping paths on those spherical models work:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections

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Offline MCToon

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I see that. But what are we supposed to be discussing here? These routes are pretty unrealistic.

Further, in the videos the author admits that some of the charts were unavailabile and shows us the piece that was missing. Therefore he did not successfully map out the routes. Is he expecting the man with the little mermaid glasses will award him $100,000 based on missing maps?


Of course, real routes have airspace restrictions and different things that cause the flights to not match the desired best route.  The point is the angles between the cities adds up to more than 180 degrees, much more.  The real flights  approximate the great circle routes.  The differences between the great circle routes and the routes taken isn't enough to make up the 83 degree difference.

The ONC charts are absolutely accurate.  They must be or they would have been thrown out long ago.  The route was plotted on these proven accurate charts, this proves the flights are possible as plotted on the charts.  Unless someone has proof the ONC charts are grossly inaccurate?
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline MCToon

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I disagree with the idea that is based on a sphere. Here is some information for you on how the process of mapping paths on those spherical models work:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections

You have documentation showing the ONC charts used this procedure?
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

I disagree with the idea that is based on a sphere. Here is some information for you on how the process of mapping paths on those spherical models work:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections
It is an ellipsoid.  And the mapping works and is proven.  What is your issue?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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I disagree with the idea that is based on a sphere. Here is some information for you on how the process of mapping paths on those spherical models work:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections
It is an ellipsoid.  And the mapping works and is proven.  What is your issue?

It says pretty clearly that they are actually flat maps on the inside of those models.

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Offline MCToon

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The reality is the ONC maps are Lambert Conformal Conic projections.  22 separate lateral projections from a sphere onto conic section.  Each letter series is a different all-the-way-around conic section, then vertically cut to make convenient maps.  When a letter series is pieced together it correctly forms the conic section without further distortion as it only requires bending the paper in one direction.  The source is a sphere.

I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Here is a source that says that military aeronautical charts are using the WGS84 model mentioned in the above Earth Not Flat! article:

https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j/pcr.2018.50.issue-1/pcr-2018-0002/pcr-2018-0002.pdf



What makes you think that your maps are any different? WGS84 is the standard.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 10:21:20 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline MCToon

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I see that. But what are we supposed to be discussing here? These routes are pretty unrealistic.

One of the points here is that Operational Navigation Charts (ONC) have been used successfully for decades for air travel/transport. ONC's are sphere based.

Exactly.  There's always this silly question about the FE map...  "We have no budget."  There is no budget for a FE bap because literally Billions of dollars has already been spent to produce a beautiful, working, accurate, predictive, testable, map.

There's no need for a FE map, we already have a map that works perfectly.  Thousands of daily flights get to their destinations.  Ships get where they are going.  They do use maps.  We have these maps, they are not secret, anyone can download many of these for free.  NONE of these proven accurate maps are based on a flat plane.  ALL of these proven accurate maps are based on a sphere.

There can never be an accurate FE map because the map that already works cannot be flattened without distortions.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

Here is a source that says that military aeronautical charts are using the WGS84 model mentioned in the above Earth Not Flat! article:

https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j/pcr.2018.50.issue-1/pcr-2018-0002/pcr-2018-0002.pdf



What makes you think that your maps are any different? WGS84 is the standard.
Based on the spherical earth.

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Offline stack

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I disagree with the idea that is based on a sphere. Here is some information for you on how the process of mapping paths on those spherical models work:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections
It is an ellipsoid.  And the mapping works and is proven.  What is your issue?

It says pretty clearly that they are actually flat maps on the inside of those models.

Actually, it doesn't state that at all. It states:

"UTM NAD83 is a projected coordinate system that represents physical locations abstracted to a flat, cartesian coordinate system."

In regard to UTM NAD83:

"The UTM system is not a single map projection. The system instead divides the Earth into sixty zones, each being a six-degree band of longitude, and uses a secant transverse Mercator projection in each zone.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Transverse_Mercator_coordinate_system


"The transverse Mercator map projection is an adaptation of the standard Mercator projection. The transverse version is widely used in national and international mapping systems around the world, including the UTM. When paired with a suitable geodetic datum, the transverse Mercator delivers high accuracy in zones less than a few degrees in east-west extent. “



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transverse_Mercator_projection

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Here is a source that says that military aeronautical charts are using the WGS84 model mentioned in the above Earth Not Flat! article:

https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j/pcr.2018.50.issue-1/pcr-2018-0002/pcr-2018-0002.pdf



What makes you think that your maps are any different? WGS84 is the standard.
Based on the spherical earth.

Here is the article for you again:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections

It says that it is using flat maps underneath because they are more accurate.