Antarctic aspect of FET
« on: November 28, 2018, 11:25:10 PM »
FET Wiki page mentions British polar explorer Sir James Clark Ross discovery of the 'Ice Wall' in 1841. In FET the Antarctic is this Ice Wall that is effectively the circumference of the planetary disk. That is how I interpret the monopole map of the flat Earth.

Away from the FET Wiki page there is further information about Ross' Antarctic expedition where he discovered the Ross Sea. Various websites refer to the 'Ice Wall' as the Ross Ice Shelf and show it as forming just a relatively small part of the continental boundary of eastern Antarctica. There are other ice shelves of course and these in combination form other regions of the continental boundary of the Antarctic land mass.


The more recent (1911) mission to the South Pole by the Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen included a traverse of the Ross Ice Shelf followed by a passage across the Transantarctic mountains to reach the geographic South Pole. Amundsen used the eastern barrier regions of the Ice Shelf as a base or HQ for his mission. A couple of years before Amundsen the British Explorer Ernest Shackelton also traversed the Ice Shelf to a point beyond the 88 degrees south latitude line to get within 112 miles of the South Pole.

thing to say on this?So it seems that thanks to these missions  - which are widely documented - the claim by FET Wiki that 'what lies beyond the 150ft ice wall is anyones guess', though perhaps true at the time of James Ross' mission is now no longer the case.  I wonder why there is no mention of either Amundsen or Shackleton in FET Wiki?


60 views so far but no replies... has no one got an answer for this?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 11:34:15 PM by LoveScience »

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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2018, 02:03:08 PM »
FET Wiki page mentions British polar explorer Sir James Clark Ross discovery of the 'Ice Wall' in 1841. In FET the Antarctic is this Ice Wall that is effectively the circumference of the planetary disk. That is how I interpret the monopole map of the flat Earth.

Away from the FET Wiki page there is further information about Ross' Antarctic expedition where he discovered the Ross Sea. Various websites refer to the 'Ice Wall' as the Ross Ice Shelf and show it as forming just a relatively small part of the continental boundary of eastern Antarctica. There are other ice shelves of course and these in combination form other regions of the continental boundary of the Antarctic land mass.


The more recent (1911) mission to the South Pole by the Norwegian explorer Roald Amundsen included a traverse of the Ross Ice Shelf followed by a passage across the Transantarctic mountains to reach the geographic South Pole. Amundsen used the eastern barrier regions of the Ice Shelf as a base or HQ for his mission. A couple of years before Amundsen the British Explorer Ernest Shackelton also traversed the Ice Shelf to a point beyond the 88 degrees south latitude line to get within 112 miles of the South Pole.

thing to say on this?So it seems that thanks to these missions  - which are widely documented - the claim by FET Wiki that 'what lies beyond the 150ft ice wall is anyones guess', though perhaps true at the time of James Ross' mission is now no longer the case.  I wonder why there is no mention of either Amundsen or Shackleton in FET Wiki?


60 views so far but no replies... has no one got an answer for this?

That wiki page is a weird mishmash of some verbatim material from Rowbotham and material from Britannica, both without attribution. 

Rowbotham was writing before the great era of Antarctic exploration, so not unreasonable to say that. The whole thing needs updating. There is no reasonable dispute that the Antarctic stations exist - just search on YouTube for subscribers who actually live and work there - nor any reasonable dispute that the Antarctic Traverse, a road from McMurdo to the South Pole built in 2005, really exists.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2018, 02:33:01 PM »
The whole idea that the Antarctic is closed and inaccessible is totally incorrect.  Just look on the internet for all the expeditions (100s) that have taken place.  You have had people walking, skiing, biking, driving, & flying across the Antarctic continent.  There was even an account of a guy who was partly disabled, couldn't walk, and had to push himself to the South Pole.  The whole idea that there's any wall out there is not a viable option.  In fact the South Pole has been approached from multiple directions and no one has found an edge.  Without any kind of an edge, wall, or barrier of some kind the whole idea of a flat earth is completely unsupportable.  There as been no indication that the FET has claimed that all the Antarctic expeditions are faked like is claimed for the space program. 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 02:35:02 PM by RonJ »
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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2018, 02:34:58 PM »
The whole idea that the Antarctic is closed and inaccessible is totally incorrect.  Just look on the internet for all the expeditions (100s) that have taken place.  You have had people walking, skiing, biking, driving, & flying across the Antarctic continent.  There was even an account of a guy who was partly disabled, couldn't walk, and had to push himself to the South Pole.  The whole idea that there's any wall out there is not a viable option.  In fact the South Pole has been approached from multiple directions and no one has found an edge.  Without any kind of an edge, wall, or barrier of some kind the whole idea of a flat earth is completely unsupportable.
However you might want to search 'antarctica closed' on YouTube for a sense of what is out there.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2018, 02:39:56 PM »
I have seen that YouTube video.  Yes, there are some restrictions.  They make sense.  You can easily die there.  I wouldn't want to go there without doing a lot of planning so I could come back alive.  For sure that can be done.  My sister & her husband did that last year and it worked out OK.  The point that I'm making is that there have been 1000's of people in and out of the Antarctic from all directions and no edge has been found.  Therefore no edge can exist.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2018, 02:50:13 PM »
I have seen that YouTube video.  Yes, there are some restrictions.  They make sense.  You can easily die there.  I wouldn't want to go there without doing a lot of planning so I could come back alive.  For sure that can be done.  My sister & her husband did that last year and it worked out OK.  The point that I'm making is that there have been 1000's of people in and out of the Antarctic from all directions and no edge has been found.  Therefore no edge can exist.
What about the video below? The objection is that your sister and husband went to a kind of visitor centre.


Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2018, 04:44:06 PM »
So my assertion that the Antarctic is now far less of an unknown than it was in the 1840s appears to be correct. The ice shelves discovered by Ross and others have actually aided more recent explorations of continental Antarctica rather than inhibited them. The location of the geographical SP has been identified and visited. Granted conditions near the SP are undoubtedly rather unpleasant but it is far from the mysterious void that FE Wiki implies.

That doesn't help the case for the monopole FE model very much then.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2018, 05:15:12 PM »
Everyone knows there's some restrictions to travel in Antarctica.  That doesn't really matter.  The fact is that travel is possible.  To prove that the earth is not flat, all you have to do is travel to the South Pole.  Then have person A stand on one side of the pole and face South and person B stand on the opposite side facing South.  If they can see each other then you have just proved that the South Pole is not the edge of the earth.  Many people have come to the South Pole going directly South and have gone far enough that they then started going directly North.  On a disk you could go directly South forever or until you fell off the edge.  If the edge of the earth is not at the South Pole just where is it?   
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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2018, 06:20:32 PM »
Antarctica is fascinating. Map below. The part on the left is the peninsula, which due to its proximity to Chile, more temperate climate and wildlife is the one visited by tourists. Pretty much any picture of Antarctic wildlife is from there.

At the bottom is the Ross ice shelf. Most pictures of the ‘ice wall’ are from there. McMurdo station (US) is there, and there are many many videos of life on the station if you look them up. The interesting thing is that most people there are not scientists but doing grunt work like fixing iced-up plumbing, electrics, driving those big dumper trucks and so on. Contract work much better paid than in the US, which is what attracts most people, given it is an utterly boring place otherwise.





There was a road built to the pole in 2005. See the video above for an entertaining story of how it was built. People have used that route to cross to the Ronne ice shelf, but the whole right hand bit is still little explored, probably down to the fact it is not very interesting – just a huge sea of ice. However there is an article about Lake Vostok here.





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Offline JRowe

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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 03:09:14 PM »
The idea that Antarctica has to be inaccessible under FET is a weird thing that so many REers insist on criticising even when it's a totally unnecessary part of a model. Honestly I blame that for why it's stuck around so much; people end up needing to invest so much time and energy into defending it from some of the bad arguments levelled against it that it's psychologically near-impossible to recognise the valid objections in among the messes.

The classic FET response would be twofold; there are two entities being confused here. One is the edge of the Earth, the ice wall, the icy limit of where it is we can go. The second is an icy landmass chosen to put stations on, perhaps simply because it's believed to be the Antarctica referred to by RET, or perhaps out of an active attempt to mislead. That can be crossed, circumnavigated, etc etc, no problem. The only thing that's really testable is the magnetic south pole, which isn't even claimed to be on the land itself. The former is the 'actual' South Pole, the latter is merely what RET claims is such.

Then there are those like me that see no reason to suppose both poles cannot exist as distinct points on a flat world.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 03:19:13 PM »
The idea that Antarctica has to be inaccessible under FET is a weird thing that so many REers insist on criticising even when it's a totally unnecessary part of a model. Honestly I blame that for why it's stuck around so much; people end up needing to invest so much time and energy into defending it from some of the bad arguments levelled against it that it's psychologically near-impossible to recognise the valid objections in among the messes.

The classic FET response would be twofold; there are two entities being confused here. One is the edge of the Earth, the ice wall, the icy limit of where it is we can go. The second is an icy landmass chosen to put stations on, perhaps simply because it's believed to be the Antarctica referred to by RET, or perhaps out of an active attempt to mislead. That can be crossed, circumnavigated, etc etc, no problem. The only thing that's really testable is the magnetic south pole, which isn't even claimed to be on the land itself. The former is the 'actual' South Pole, the latter is merely what RET claims is such.

Then there are those like me that see no reason to suppose both poles cannot exist as distinct points on a flat world.
I would note in respect to your last point, even the (previously stated) most 'up-to-date' model of the FE endorsed by TFES has Antarctica as its own continent. The idea is in the wiki under the 'bi-polar' model. It might have other issues at various locations, but Antarctica is not one of them.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 06:31:57 PM »
If you are going to believe in a flat earth where the North Pole is at the center of the plate then you also have to believe that the South Pole is at the outer edge of the disk and can't be a single point.  There have been expeditions that have arrived from the North, gone to the South Pole, and departed continuing in straight line.  So the question remains, just where is the edge of the flat earth?  Is is at the South Pole or somewhere else?   
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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2018, 08:51:07 PM »
The idea that Antarctica has to be inaccessible under FET is a weird thing that so many REers insist on criticising even when it's a totally unnecessary part of a model. Honestly I blame that for why it's stuck around so much; people end up needing to invest so much time and energy into defending it from some of the bad arguments levelled against it that it's psychologically near-impossible to recognise the valid objections in among the messes.

The classic FET response would be twofold; there are two entities being confused here. One is the edge of the Earth, the ice wall, the icy limit of where it is we can go. The second is an icy landmass chosen to put stations on, perhaps simply because it's believed to be the Antarctica referred to by RET, or perhaps out of an active attempt to mislead. That can be crossed, circumnavigated, etc etc, no problem. The only thing that's really testable is the magnetic south pole, which isn't even claimed to be on the land itself. The former is the 'actual' South Pole, the latter is merely what RET claims is such.

Then there are those like me that see no reason to suppose both poles cannot exist as distinct points on a flat world.
I would note in respect to your last point, even the (previously stated) most 'up-to-date' model of the FE endorsed by TFES has Antarctica as its own continent. The idea is in the wiki under the 'bi-polar' model. It might have other issues at various locations, but Antarctica is not one of them.
Might I suggest that flights from Australia or New Zealand to Hawaii of the USA might have problems on any continental layout with a break down the International Dateline or the Equator.
One such example would be Air New Zealand flight NZ10 from Aukland to Honolulu:

The Bi-polar Model reflects the work of many Zeteticists
who diverged from Rowbotham's work
         
Playback of Air New Zealand flight NZ10 on 01 Dec 2018 (Aukland to Honolulu)
That flight is claimed to take just over 8 hours and there is no way a Boeing 777 could fly from Aukland to Honolulu in that time by any other route.

That continental layout would also seem to make a human-powered equatorial circumnavigation as this  Kickass Trip undertaken by Mike Horn.

But rather than Kickass Trips they should be called You've Gotta be Mad Trips!.
Quote
Kickass Trips, Latitude Zero: Mike Horn’s Horizontal Solo Circumnavigation of the Globe at the Equator
Mike Horn is a South-African born Swiss explorer and adventurer who gained world fame in 2001 after completing a solo journey around the equator without motorized transport.



After Ranulph Fiennes’ ‘vertical’ crossing of the world along longitude zero – aka the Greenwich Meridian – in his Transglobe expedition in 1982, Mike Horn accomplished the first ‘horizontal’ crossing of the world at Latitude zero – aka the Equator in 2001.

The 35-year-old South-African crossed the Atlantic Ocean, South America, the Pacific Ocean, the Indonesian islands, The Indian Ocean and Africa. All by him­self, walking, rowing, sailing, biking, through jun­gles and tem­pests, through marshes and deserts. He left in June 1999 and came back to where he had started, one year and a half later. He had gone round the world fol­lowing the equator.
Quote from: Mike Horn
“When I left, I thought I knew enough to go round the world this way. Now that I am back, I know that I don’t know enough to start again.”

Read about the six stages, with the hair-raising photos in the link above.

Wherever a "break" in the Globe is made to "flatten it out" there will be numerous air-routes and circumnavigations crossing that line.
That makes Rowbotham's North Pole centred "Ice-Wall" layout so "ingenious". Back in his time no-one had crossed Antarctica and even now there are no commercial air-routes that cross it.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2018, 08:58:49 PM »
I did many trips across the Pacific from Southern California to China and Japan.  The biPolar map would make that trip interesting.  It would be interesting to see how the waypoints could be laid out for that trip.  We never did see any walls at sea or anything that looked like an edge even after diverting all over the place to avoid getting into typhoons at sea.
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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2018, 09:59:07 PM »
I did many trips across the Pacific from Southern California to China and Japan.  The biPolar map would make that trip interesting.  It would be interesting to see how the waypoints could be laid out for that trip.  We never did see any walls at sea or anything that looked like an edge even after diverting all over the place to avoid getting into typhoons at sea.
That sounds like the "Space/non-Space" explanation in Leo Ferrari's video "In Search of the Edge":

Flat Earth - In search of the edge (1990 Documentary)
Take particlar note of:
  • "light curved by mass makes the earth look a sphere from space" at 14:31
  • "Space/non-Space"  at 20:30
  • "Cows in Antarctica" at 20:35
There's a bit on Leo Ferrari in the Wiki: Leo Ferrari

Re: Antarctic aspect of FET
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2018, 10:03:53 PM »
I did many trips across the Pacific from Southern California to China and Japan.  The biPolar map would make that trip interesting.  It would be interesting to see how the waypoints could be laid out for that trip.  We never did see any walls at sea or anything that looked like an edge even after diverting all over the place to avoid getting into typhoons at sea.
The layout works better for something like the 'infinitely repeating plane' or 'pacman' ideas. I never meant to present it as something that would hold up to intense scrutiny, simply pointing out TFES DID solve the issue of Antarctica, albeit by introducing other inconsistencies/problems.