Offline Spingo

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2018, 10:38:58 PM »
How can I disprove "A" unless I know exactly what "A" is.  I could never prove that an animal inside a box was a cat if you were looking for a proof for a dog.  For FET to be anything but a farce you should  'square yourself in the hatch' and put out a map defining exactly what you consider the flat earth geography to be.  Otherwise it looks like you aren't really trying to get to the truth, but just trying to encourage more controversy.

There is zero budget to map the world. A lot of the real data is hidden behind multiple layers of assumptions, fixes, and mapping re-projections. I am planning to explain more as my next project after the Universal Accelerator project.

The world has been extensively mapped for the last 500 years.
How do you imagine people managed to build the extensive road and rail networks we currently use over the five continents? The same road and rail networks that are used by billions every day?

Take Russia for example are you claiming it’s huge landmass has not been mapped? Are you saying the route of the trans Siberian railway is not known? Are you also saying the vast fleets of container ships that cross the oceans carrying all the raw materials and finished goods don’t know where they are going, and when they do arrive they do so by luck?

I don’t quite understand your point. Knowing where you are on the planet has nothing to do with what global mapping projection your world map uses.

Lastly you mention multiple layers of assumptions. Could you please explain the nature of these assumptions as well as the significance of the layering.

Offline Spingo

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2018, 10:48:22 PM »
To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.

Have you assessed all possible layouts, continental configurations, jet stream paths, navigational assumptions, to make that statement?

I’m not sure what the jet stream or it path has to do with the accuracy of a road map nor naval chart?
Regarding assumptions when I drove on Route 66 back in the day the assumption I made was the maps I bought for the trip would be correct,  and you know what......so they were, I arrived at all the motels I had booked.

The other assumptions I make are based on all the millions of journeys that are carried out every day based on commercial maps, where everyone reaches their chosen destinations.

If you imagine there are problems  with our current maps, what exactly are the nature of these problems and which maps are affected? Why have these problems not been reported?

Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2018, 10:58:13 AM »
Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?
Incorrect.
Oh? Did they somehow live past their stated DoD?
James Cook: Died in 1779
James Weddel: Died in 1834
James Clark Ross: Died in 1862
Charles Wilkes: Died in 1877

Not a single one who was alive in the 20th century, much less the 21st. If you are referring to someone else that happens to share the same name, please provide an actual link to a source. Oh, and btw the first Antarctic expedition? 1907-1909 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod_Expedition So yeah, every single one of them was dead before we started exploring Antarctica.

They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica

You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/

Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!
20 times a year (perhaps) they take place and this constitutes, "frequent," according to you?

If you are so familiar with these supposed routine Antarctica cruises, you should be able to quite easily find:

TOTAL # of cruises per year.
Frequent =/= routine. YOU suggest these errors happen frequently. You then suggested voyages in the Southern Ocean aren't routine. I'd say anything that happens that many times in a year for as long as some of those have been going on is fairly routine. But perhaps you disagree with me.

One particular instance of the newest and best liner available (according to the press) and discover the trip had to be shortened considerably due to inaccurate charts necessitating course corrections. particularly near Tierra Del Fuego.
Seriously, just give me a fucking link to your source. Your claim, your burden.
While technically no one is reported to have disembarked on the actual Antarctic shelf, these voyages I have listed were indeed exploratory and did make journal entries regarding the area considered to be the Antarctic continent.

No person on the face of the planet considers any trip through the Southern Ocean, "routine"; as a matter of fact, these voyages are beyond routine, necessitating extra planning and measures beyond those occurring in other oceans.

All you need to do is to look at any one of the videos provided regarding these cruises involving newer vessels.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 11:01:03 AM by totallackey »

Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2018, 11:05:37 AM »
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
My point is the map is flat.
Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?
Yes and yes.

And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.
Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.

What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.

They do for most areas of the flat earth.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2018, 11:58:39 AM »
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
My point is the map is flat.
And everyone else's point is that your map might be flat but it is not a flat-earth map.

Quote from: totallackey
Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?
Yes and yes.

And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.
Sure your map might be flat but is it a flat-earth map? Yes or no!

Quote from: totallackey
Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.

What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.

They do for most areas of the flat earth.
Please show me a flat-earth map that is accurate "for most areas of the flat earth" because I know that the Ice-Wall grossly distorts the shapes of countries south of the equator

The left hand map is and 1855 one from surveys prior to that time and the one on the right is Australia as on "Gleason's 1892" map:

Map of Australia 1855
           
1892 - Gleason's Map Scaled - Australia
The dimensions scaled off the 1855 map are very close to the current dimensions from Google Earth, etc.

I live in Australia and I know which is NOT anywhere near the correct shape!

Now look at the areas of the USA and Australia on the usual FE map:

1892-new-standard-map-of-the-world

Compare the true sizes of Australia and the United States:
Quote
Australia's Size Compared
Australia is the planet's sixth largest country after Russia, Canada, China, the USA, and Brazil. At 7,692,024 km2.

Note that the area of the contiguous United States is 8,080,464 km2, a little larger than the area of Australia yet, on that flat-earth map, Australia looks at least twice the area of the United States.

Now, if perchance, I have chosen the incorrect map for the flat earth, please show us the correct one.

Offline edby

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2018, 12:15:49 PM »
To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.

Have you assessed all possible layouts, continental configurations, jet stream paths, navigational assumptions, to make that statement?
Not necessary. Take four points reasonably far apart from each other, then measure the six distances between them. Geometry will do the rest. If earth is not flat, the distances between these points will not be consistent with the distances calculated on the assumption it is flat.

Offline edby

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2018, 12:22:28 PM »
On the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.

I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2018, 12:45:03 PM »
To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.

Have you assessed all possible layouts, continental configurations, jet stream paths, navigational assumptions, to make that statement?
Not necessary. Take four points reasonably far apart from each other, then measure the six distances between them. Geometry will do the rest. If earth is not flat, the distances between these points will not be consistent with the distances calculated on the assumption it is flat.
That's true but few flat-earthers will accept those distances as accurate. That is why so many try to estimate distances from aircraft flight times.
This from an earlier post and uses great circle distances:
For example take the international airports at Johannesburg (JNB), Dubai (DBX), Beijing (PEK) and Sydney (SYD).
The nominal distances between these airports (from Great Circle Mapper) is:
   
DBX
   
PEK
   
SYD
JNB
   
6,390 km
   
11,699 km
   
11,045 km
DBX
   
xxx
   
5,857 km
   
12,039 km
PEK
   
xxx
   
xxx
   
8,934 km

Now if we take the Johannesburg (JNB) to Sydney (Syd) flight (11,119 km) as a baseline we can use
      the routes JNB to SYD, JNB to DXB and JNB to DXB to calculate the location of Dubai, relative to Johannesburg and Sydney and use
      the routes JNB to SYD, JNB to PEK and SYD to PEK to calculate the location of Beijing, relative to Johannesburg and Sydney.
Then the distance from Dubai to Beijing can be calculated or scaled off a diagram - I did both.

This shown here:

JNB-DBX-PEK-SYD Flat Air Routes
This distance from Dubai to Beijing is 7,608 km calculated in Excel.
But the actual air route distance from Dubai to Beijing is not 7,608 km but 5,857 km.
So these flight distances do not fit on any flat surface.

Now the distances I have used are just the nominal distances and real flight distances would all be a little longer.

Some other kind person might like to go to the trouble of looking up actual flights on FlightRadar24 or FlightAware, QANTAS QFA64, JNB to SYD

Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2018, 06:33:40 PM »
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
My point is the map is flat.
And everyone else's point is that your map might be flat but it is not a flat-earth map.

Quote from: totallackey
Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?
Yes and yes.

And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.
Sure your map might be flat but is it a flat-earth map? Yes or no!

Quote from: totallackey
Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.

What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.

They do for most areas of the flat earth.
Please show me a flat-earth map that is accurate "for most areas of the flat earth" because I know that the Ice-Wall grossly distorts the shapes of countries south of the equator

The left hand map is and 1855 one from surveys prior to that time and the one on the right is Australia as on "Gleason's 1892" map:

Map of Australia 1855
           
1892 - Gleason's Map Scaled - Australia
The dimensions scaled off the 1855 map are very close to the current dimensions from Google Earth, etc.

I live in Australia and I know which is NOT anywhere near the correct shape!

Now look at the areas of the USA and Australia on the usual FE map:

1892-new-standard-map-of-the-world

Compare the true sizes of Australia and the United States:
Quote
Australia's Size Compared
Australia is the planet's sixth largest country after Russia, Canada, China, the USA, and Brazil. At 7,692,024 km2.

Note that the area of the contiguous United States is 8,080,464 km2, a little larger than the area of Australia yet, on that flat-earth map, Australia looks at least twice the area of the United States.

Now, if perchance, I have chosen the incorrect map for the flat earth, please show us the correct one.
All maps depict a flat earth.

They are drawn on flat paper.

In regard to how area/size is depicted, when I was growing up, Greenland used to be twice the size of Africa.

Your objection, while noted, is specious and inconsequential.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 06:36:12 PM by totallackey »

Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2018, 06:40:05 PM »
On the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.

I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
Yeah, I would like to obtain a copy of that.

Name the work please.

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Offline stack

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2018, 06:59:48 PM »
All maps depict a flat earth.

That is incorrect. And there currently is not a flat earth map. Those that are depicted as such are various Globe projections. Which, in and of itself, is ironic.



They are drawn on flat paper.

Or on spheres or other 3d shapes.

In regard to how area/size is depicted, when I was growing up, Greenland used to be twice the size of Africa.

Depends upon which globe projection you are looking at.

Your objection, while noted, is specious and inconsequential.

Your statements are not well informed and don't represent reality.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 07:01:44 PM by stack »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2018, 07:25:33 PM »
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.

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Offline stack

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2018, 07:36:35 PM »
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.

Many folks have already done that for us to the betterment and accuracy and safety of today's global travel/transport.

Offline Spingo

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2018, 07:37:19 PM »
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
My point is the map is flat.
Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?
Yes and yes.

And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.
Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.

What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.

They do for most areas of the flat earth.

Maps are indeed flat, so are TVs, cinema screens, computer screens and magazines!
Not sure what point your trying to make.

The map you used I imagine was a commercial map, not a flat earth alternative, that you found was suitable for the task. The data it utilised was part of a bigger data set that was based on the earth being a sphere. The reason it was printed on paper, and flat was so it could fit  neatly in your glove compartment. If you look at your map, if you still have it you will find it’s a pictorial representation of that part of the world drawn to a suitable scale. The map would have most likely have shown forests, mountains, towns and cities....are all these things flat?
I was watching a tv show about Africa just the other day on my flat screen TV.....were all the things depicted flat? Trees, lions, water buffalo? What do you think?

If you agree that maps are a true representation of the world then it follows that there is no possibility for an alternative flat earth version that would require land masses to be shuffled around.

Of course the earth appears flat to those like us living on its surface, what else would you expect given it’s size?

Offline Spingo

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2018, 07:48:23 PM »
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.

I’m not sure if there is a thread on this site that deals with that. However the history of cartography gives a good and clear account of how the incremental mapping of the world took place over time. I’m sure you will know how much work is involved in producing a map of even a small area which is why im sure you would also agree it would be an impossible task for a single individual or even a small group to create a map of the world.
With all the world accurately mapped how could there be room for an alternative? If you think there are  areas of the globe that have been incorrectly mapped could you tell us which areas they are and why you think the current maps are wrong?

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2018, 09:18:29 PM »
On the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.

I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
Yeah, I would like to obtain a copy of that.

Name the work please.
This is not Scott's own account but does contain the most southerly point reached:
Quote
The Story of RRS Discovery
Southern Journey

On November 2nd 1902 Scott, Wilson and Shackleton set off to cross the Great Ice Barrier and explore the frozen desert beyond. With them were nineteen dogs pulling five sledges laden with 1,853 lbs of supplies and equipment. On November 25th they had passed latitude 80º south, charting new lands and features every day. But there was a heavy price to pay. One by one the under-nourished dogs began to die. The men too were beginning to suffer dreadfully. They carried on until December 30th, when, at latitude 82º 17’, they reluctantly turned for home. Shackleton was in the advanced stages of scurvy, incapacitated and coughing up blood through his congested throat. Against near impossible odds they arrived back at Discovery on February 3rd 1903. They had trudged over 950 miles in 93 days, travelling further south than any man before them.

By December 1903 there was 20 miles of ice between Discovery and the open sea with no apparent way out. On January 4th 1904 two relief ships arrived, Morning and Terra Nova. Finally, on February 16th controlled explosions were used to blow Discovery free from her icy prison and the expedition headed for home.

Landfall was made at Spithead on September 10th 1904 to a rapturous reception. Scott was acclaimed as a national hero and awarded numerous honours.

And here is a 1906 map of Antarctica:
Quote
Maps Owje: ANTARCTICA MAP 1906

Inset maps of Cape Town, Cape of Good Hope, Magalhaes Strait, Hobart, Port Elizabeth. Source: Justhus Perthes

I wonder why they forgot that Antarctica was a ring continent around the earth.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2018, 09:36:47 PM »
That map appears to suggest that the Antarctic coast was only partially explored.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2018, 09:48:49 PM »
That map appears to suggest that the Antarctic coast was only partially explored.
It was only partly explored at that time because lots of pack-ice got in the way of the land but the perimeter of that was mapped at least approximately - its position changes.

Offline Spingo

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2018, 09:49:52 PM »
That map appears to suggest that the Antarctic coast was only partially explored.

While that may we’ll have even the case back in 1906, it’s certinally not the case now. In fact my son is about to head off to Antartica on Saturday to do some filming for a specialised holiday company for 10 days. They operate tours there every year during the Antartic summer. Also did you watch the recent David Attenborough program ‘Dynasty’ which focused on the life of the Emperor penguin. Totally fantastic viewing, well worth watching.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2018, 05:19:38 PM »
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?

I found this map to be pretty accurate:

https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps