The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Pinky on November 28, 2018, 01:26:09 PM

Title: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Pinky on November 28, 2018, 01:26:09 PM
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on November 28, 2018, 01:50:46 PM
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
It is a given all maps are flat.

Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was not flat.

There is no such thing as a "SE" map.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Pinky on November 28, 2018, 02:19:03 PM
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
It is a given all maps are flat.

Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was flat.

There is no such thing as a "SE" map.

Seriously???

Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant:
Maps based on the FE-model and maps based on the SE-model.
Maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to exactly 180° and maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to more than 180°.

Also, I reckon that a globe does count as a SE-map, even by your definition.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: junker on November 28, 2018, 03:55:30 PM
Seriously???

Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant...

How about you stop being so condescending and stick to an argument you would like to make. Warned. You are on two bans already, next one is a month vacation.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: MattyWS on November 28, 2018, 04:55:38 PM
I see. If the FE map were to be taken at face value, it's not possible to travel from the equator going north to the pole, turn 90 degrees left, travel the same amount of distance, turn 90 degrees left again and travel the same amount of distance and end up back where you started. by doing that on a flat map you'd make a square with a missing side and you'd not be back in the same place you started, if you do it on the globe map, you form a triangle and you end up where you started.

Now with that in mind, if you do it in real life, you will end up back where you start. So how on flat earth is that possible?

I made a quick sphere object to show the path with 90 degree turns.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/462006443403640834/517384474632126465/navi1.png)
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Pinky on November 29, 2018, 07:45:23 AM
I see. If the FE map were to be taken at face value, it's not possible to travel from the equator going north to the pole, turn 90 degrees left, travel the same amount of distance, turn 90 degrees left again and travel the same amount of distance and end up back where you started. by doing that on a flat map you'd make a square with a missing side and you'd not be back in the same place you started, if you do it on the globe map, you form a triangle and you end up where you started.

Now with that in mind, if you do it in real life, you will end up back where you start. So how on flat earth is that possible?

I made a quick sphere object to show the path with 90 degree turns.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/462006443403640834/517384474632126465/navi1.png)

Exactly. There is no map that is based on FE-geometry AND that correctly predicts distances and angles in the real world.

And on the other hand, maps based on a SE-geometry can correctly predict distances and angles in the real world. If they could not, we would hear complaints from navigators and cartographers.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on November 30, 2018, 12:13:39 PM
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
It is a given all maps are flat.

Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was not flat.

There is no such thing as a "SE" map.

Seriously???
Yes.
Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant:
Maps based on the FE-model and maps based on the SE-model.
You have no independently gleaned evidence to make a personal claim regarding origin.

You do have flat maps depicting travel distances that are relatively accurate.
Maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to exactly 180° and maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to more than 180°.
Drawing three connecting arcs on a flat sheet of paper?

If you do that, what happens to verified distances?
Also, I reckon that a globe does count as a SE-map, even by your definition.
It doesn't constitute a map by my definition, or even by that of a dictionary.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: MattyWS on November 30, 2018, 01:46:26 PM
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?
It is a given all maps are flat.

Name one map ever used by any seagoing navigator that was not flat.

There is no such thing as a "SE" map.

Seriously???
Yes.
Okay, for those among us who are hard of hearing, I will spell it out nice and clearly so you can smell what I meant:
Maps based on the FE-model and maps based on the SE-model.
You have no independently gleaned evidence to make a personal claim regarding origin.

You do have flat maps depicting travel distances that are relatively accurate.
Maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to exactly 180° and maps where the angles in a triangle sum up to more than 180°.
Drawing three connecting arcs on a flat sheet of paper?

If you do that, what happens to verified distances?
Also, I reckon that a globe does count as a SE-map, even by your definition.
It doesn't constitute a map by my definition, or even by that of a dictionary.
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: RonJ on December 01, 2018, 04:42:29 PM
In navigation at sea these days most people use either the WGS-84 or Admiralty charts.  Most are Mercator projections and there are distortions in the charts.  Sailors like those charts because it makes plotting a course easier on the spherical earth.  Of course, the charts are just one component of the navigation system.  Celestial navigation wouldn't work at all under the flat earth paradigm and sailors would get lost frequently.  Of course that doesn't happen and I can personally attest to that fact after a few around the world trips, both going East and West.  It has been said that the flat earth paradigm predates the spherical earth one, but I've never seen any flat earth navigation charts or a flat earth nautical almanac.  Those who wish to promote a flat earth could do better by producing flat earth navigation charts and some nautical almanacs that could be used on ships.  Of course they would have to work, or they would be useless. 
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Spingo on December 02, 2018, 10:52:28 PM
The whole idea of a flat earth map is something of an impossibility if you care to ponder the matter.
For over five hundred years people have explored all the seas and land masses of our world making ever more accurate maps on their way. There are few nations which don’t have accurate maps of the areas their territories cover. All this mapping information allows long distance international travel to take place by both land sea and air. Every day millions of journeys are undertaken based on this geographical information these maps supply. All commercial maps bar none are based on the Earth being a globe. If you care to buy a map of Europe or anywhere else for that matter, there are no flat earth options, how could there be? What could be different? The location of all towns, cities, rivers, mountain ranges forests.etc....are known and fixed and unmovable.

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to travel around the USA, Canada, Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor, mostly by road. Back in the day it was using good old foldable paper maps. To say the world is flat  because paper maps are flat is akin to saying the world is two dimensional because picture books and TVs are is rather a silly argument. It’s just a convenient pictorial way of representing the world, or sections of it on paper. During my journeys never once was a town, mountain or river in the wrong place. Every town I traveled to was in the position as indicated by the map.

The accuracy and reality of commercial maps rules out the possibility of any alternativies including a flat earth option, it’s just not possible. The big problem however is...no flat earth map......no flat earth.....sorry.



 
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on December 03, 2018, 02:02:16 PM
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 03, 2018, 02:15:26 PM
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on December 03, 2018, 02:17:19 PM
In navigation at sea these days most people use either the WGS-84 or Admiralty charts.  Most are Mercator projections and there are distortions in the charts.  Sailors like those charts because it makes plotting a course easier on the spherical earth.  Of course, the charts are just one component of the navigation system.  Celestial navigation wouldn't work at all under the flat earth paradigm and sailors would get lost frequently.  Of course that doesn't happen and I can personally attest to that fact after a few around the world trips, both going East and West.  It has been said that the flat earth paradigm predates the spherical earth one, but I've never seen any flat earth navigation charts or a flat earth nautical almanac.  Those who wish to promote a flat earth could do better by producing flat earth navigation charts and some nautical almanacs that could be used on ships.  Of course they would have to work, or they would be useless.
The whole idea of a flat earth map is something of an impossibility if you care to ponder the matter.
For over five hundred years people have explored all the seas and land masses of our world making ever more accurate maps on their way. There are few nations which don’t have accurate maps of the areas their territories cover. All this mapping information allows long distance international travel to take place by both land sea and air. Every day millions of journeys are undertaken based on this geographical information these maps supply. All commercial maps bar none are based on the Earth being a globe. If you care to buy a map of Europe or anywhere else for that matter, there are no flat earth options, how could there be? What could be different? The location of all towns, cities, rivers, mountain ranges forests.etc....are known and fixed and unmovable.

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to travel around the USA, Canada, Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor, mostly by road. Back in the day it was using good old foldable paper maps. To say the world is flat  because paper maps are flat is akin to saying the world is two dimensional because picture books and TVs are is rather a silly argument. It’s just a convenient pictorial way of representing the world, or sections of it on paper. During my journeys never once was a town, mountain or river in the wrong place. Every town I traveled to was in the position as indicated by the map.

The accuracy and reality of commercial maps rules out the possibility of any alternativies including a flat earth option, it’s just not possible. The big problem however is...no flat earth map......no flat earth.....sorry.

Of course every single map ever drawn was done so by a person who had no advantage of an overview of a sphere.

Each map was drawn with the same advantages of eyesight and measuring devices (incapable of detecting supposed arc) while performing a journey, during which the entire time a person was uttering the immortal phrase, "It looks flat to me!"
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on December 03, 2018, 02:20:07 PM
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.
You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.

Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 03, 2018, 02:28:28 PM
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.
You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.

Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
So you have one instance of it occurring recently (maybe, I can't find the happening you are referring to) and the other three are from the 1700's, 1800's, and I can't even find Ross with just the last name (and I have to assume you mean Cook, but I obviously can't be 100%). That's 4 times you can reference in the last 300 years. 3 of them prior to any real exploration of Antarctica, and the fourth not even seeming to exist. That's hardly 'frequently' as you claimed.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on December 03, 2018, 02:31:43 PM
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.
You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.

Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
So you have one instance of it occurring recently (maybe, I can't find the happening you are referring to) and the other three are from the 1700's, 1800's, and I can't even find Ross with just the last name (and I have to assume you mean Cook, but I obviously can't be 100%). That's 4 times you can reference in the last 300 years. 3 of them prior to any real exploration of Antarctica, and the fourth not even seeming to exist. That's hardly 'frequently' as you claimed.
You would assume wrong.

James Clark Ross.

Also a Lieutenant Charles Wilkes in the US Navy made note of problems in reckoning and distances.

It is when you consider proportion.

You act as if voyages in the Southern Ocean are a routine occurrence.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 03, 2018, 02:46:41 PM
So you can accept that flat maps depicting earth that are used for navigation are distorted toward the poles in order to be accurate for navigation? Because if you can't accept that you're already wasting everyones time by commenting in this topic.
I accept that whatever distortions are in place are insufficient.

Actual voyages taking place in the Southern Ocean frequently find themselves off course and reckoning according to the best known charts.
Source/evidence please? Specifically in regards to 'frequently' please. I've no doubt you can find a few boats that end up off course. But you'll need to present a case for more than a few %.
You can reference the latest Antarctic cruise offerings to find one specific instance.

Cook, Weddell, and Ross, are earlier examples for reference.
So you have one instance of it occurring recently (maybe, I can't find the happening you are referring to) and the other three are from the 1700's, 1800's, and I can't even find Ross with just the last name (and I have to assume you mean Cook, but I obviously can't be 100%). That's 4 times you can reference in the last 300 years. 3 of them prior to any real exploration of Antarctica, and the fourth not even seeming to exist. That's hardly 'frequently' as you claimed.
You would assume wrong.

James Clark Ross.

Also a Lieutenant Charles Wilkes in the US Navy made note of problems in reckoning and distances.

It is when you consider proportion.

You act as if voyages in the Southern Ocean are a routine occurrence.
Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?

They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica

You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/

Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on December 03, 2018, 02:56:16 PM
Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?
Incorrect.
They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica

You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/

Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!
20 times a year (perhaps) they take place and this constitutes, "frequent," according to you?

If you are so familiar with these supposed routine Antarctica cruises, you should be able to quite easily find:

TOTAL # of cruises per year.

One particular instance of the newest and best liner available (according to the press) and discover the trip had to be shortened considerably due to inaccurate charts necessitating course corrections. particularly near Tierra Del Fuego.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 03, 2018, 03:15:28 PM
Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?
Incorrect.
Oh? Did they somehow live past their stated DoD?
James Cook: Died in 1779
James Weddel: Died in 1834
James Clark Ross: Died in 1862
Charles Wilkes: Died in 1877

Not a single one who was alive in the 20th century, much less the 21st. If you are referring to someone else that happens to share the same name, please provide an actual link to a source. Oh, and btw the first Antarctic expedition? 1907-1909 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod_Expedition So yeah, every single one of them was dead before we started exploring Antarctica.

They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica

You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/

Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!
20 times a year (perhaps) they take place and this constitutes, "frequent," according to you?

If you are so familiar with these supposed routine Antarctica cruises, you should be able to quite easily find:

TOTAL # of cruises per year.
Frequent =/= routine. YOU suggest these errors happen frequently. You then suggested voyages in the Southern Ocean aren't routine. I'd say anything that happens that many times in a year for as long as some of those have been going on is fairly routine. But perhaps you disagree with me.

One particular instance of the newest and best liner available (according to the press) and discover the trip had to be shortened considerably due to inaccurate charts necessitating course corrections. particularly near Tierra Del Fuego.
Seriously, just give me a fucking link to your source. Your claim, your burden.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: JRowe on December 03, 2018, 05:09:00 PM
I'm going to say something that's more than likely going to be taken out of context for people to jump down my throat for, but hear me out: people don't use maps for navigation.

On any scale beyond your basic shopping center map, they aren't going to be nearly as useful as landmarks. Ok, yes, you need a map to get a vague idea of what's near where, but that doesn't need to be particularly accurate. Does it really affect your driving if the roads on an atlas are a few degrees off, or centimeters too long, or do you just care about the road names and junctions?
Even at sea, they use the stars as reference points. All they really need a map for is to work out which constellation to head for, and by the time they get closer they can just use their eyes. Ok, we can see land, it has that feature which exists there, so we want to head that way... You don't need a particularly accurate map for any of that.
Landmarks are the most important part of navigation, far more than a 100% accurate map. A sketched out sheet that notes down roughly how they relate to each other is as useful as the most accurate flat or spherical map in the world, and even that can be replaced by a few notes. If you try to follow a map alone by, say, ship, you're going to get screwed over in your first day at sea if your angle isn't accurate to within 0.01 degrees, or if there's a single wave or odd wind that adjusts that angle. That's true for any journey, there's no perfect means to point yourself in one direction and go, so the means to course correct are required for navigation, and that's where landmarks come in. 'Head 100km 10 degrees from North,' isn't nearly as useful as 'take the third left, if you reach Burger King you've gone too far.'

So in answer to your question:
1. Yes, there are flat Earth maps that work just fine so long as you use your common sense.
2. No, they don't work alone, but then no map does.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Spingo on December 03, 2018, 06:02:00 PM
In navigation at sea these days most people use either the WGS-84 or Admiralty charts.  Most are Mercator projections and there are distortions in the charts.  Sailors like those charts because it makes plotting a course easier on the spherical earth.  Of course, the charts are just one component of the navigation system.  Celestial navigation wouldn't work at all under the flat earth paradigm and sailors would get lost frequently.  Of course that doesn't happen and I can personally attest to that fact after a few around the world trips, both going East and West.  It has been said that the flat earth paradigm predates the spherical earth one, but I've never seen any flat earth navigation charts or a flat earth nautical almanac.  Those who wish to promote a flat earth could do better by producing flat earth navigation charts and some nautical almanacs that could be used on ships.  Of course they would have to work, or they would be useless.
The whole idea of a flat earth map is something of an impossibility if you care to ponder the matter.
For over five hundred years people have explored all the seas and land masses of our world making ever more accurate maps on their way. There are few nations which don’t have accurate maps of the areas their territories cover. All this mapping information allows long distance international travel to take place by both land sea and air. Every day millions of journeys are undertaken based on this geographical information these maps supply. All commercial maps bar none are based on the Earth being a globe. If you care to buy a map of Europe or anywhere else for that matter, there are no flat earth options, how could there be? What could be different? The location of all towns, cities, rivers, mountain ranges forests.etc....are known and fixed and unmovable.

Over the years I have been fortunate enough to travel around the USA, Canada, Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor, mostly by road. Back in the day it was using good old foldable paper maps. To say the world is flat  because paper maps are flat is akin to saying the world is two dimensional because picture books and TVs are is rather a silly argument. It’s just a convenient pictorial way of representing the world, or sections of it on paper. During my journeys never once was a town, mountain or river in the wrong place. Every town I traveled to was in the position as indicated by the map.

The accuracy and reality of commercial maps rules out the possibility of any alternativies including a flat earth option, it’s just not possible. The big problem however is...no flat earth map......no flat earth.....sorry.

Of course every single map ever drawn was done so by a person who had no advantage of an overview of a sphere.

Each map was drawn with the same advantages of eyesight and measuring devices (incapable of detecting supposed arc) while performing a journey, during which the entire time a person was uttering the immortal phrase, "It looks flat to me!"

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?

Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.

What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: RonJ on December 03, 2018, 06:17:40 PM
Your assessment of the necessity of maps at sea are totally incorrect.  Accurate maps are vital to the lives of the crew, the ship, and the cargo.  The trip from Shanghai, China to Long Beach, CA is more than 6000 miles.  You can have countless storms along the way that need to be avoided when possible.  It can be cloudy or foggy and you can't see any stars for a week at a time.  Often it is necessary to alter course to avoid a known storm that is visible on the satellite maps we get on a daily basis.  Do you really think that we turn left at the next wave and go 100 miles until we see a mermaid pointing us in the right direction?  Usually a container ship will carry 100's of millions of dollars worth of cargo.  Many shippers have their own trackers on top of the containers that can monitor the ship's progress.  They will immediately know if the ship has an incompetent navigation officer.  You can be sure that very little is left to chance.  There is a detailed voyage plan made out and check lists completed before the ship ever leaves the dock.  The trip is long, the weather can be bad, and very good detailed charts are vital to our very survival.  Our charts allow us to navigate a distance about the same as from going from New York to Los Angles and back again without ever seeing any kind of landmark and arrive at our destination safely and on time. 
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: JRowe on December 03, 2018, 06:31:25 PM
Your assessment of the necessity of maps at sea are totally incorrect.  Accurate maps are vital to the lives of the crew, the ship, and the cargo.  The trip from Shanghai, China to Long Beach, CA is more than 6000 miles.  You can have countless storms along the way that need to be avoided when possible.  It can be cloudy or foggy and you can't see any stars for a week at a time.  Often it is necessary to alter course to avoid a known storm that is visible on the satellite maps we get on a daily basis.  Do you really think that we turn left at the next wave and go 100 miles until we see a mermaid pointing us in the right direction?  Usually a container ship will carry 100's of millions of dollars worth of cargo.  Many shippers have their own trackers on top of the containers that can monitor the ship's progress.  They will immediately know if the ship has an incompetent navigation officer.  You can be sure that very little is left to chance.  There is a detailed voyage plan made out and check lists completed before the ship ever leaves the dock.  The trip is long, the weather can be bad, and very good detailed charts are vital to our very survival.  Our charts allow us to navigate a distance about the same as from going from New York to Los Angles and back again without ever seeing any kind of landmark and arrive at our destination safely and on time.
Cool. Please point out the storms on a map.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61auu0NetpL._SX466_.jpg)

Satellite maps, like you refer to, are a whole different beast and if you look up how they work, they literally do just function by referencing how far you are from the location of trasmitters. It's precisely the same system on a grander scale. The charts give you the relationships between landmarks, they don't replace them.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 03, 2018, 06:56:00 PM
For long haul transport, navigation is predominantly via great circles, not rhumblines. So on a mercator globe projection map, the path appears arced to take advantage of the shorter distance assuming a globe. Many nautical charts come in a great circle format:

(https://i.imgur.com/cfn2r3w.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: RonJ on December 03, 2018, 06:56:17 PM
Again, you are way off.  Our weather maps usually come from the Japanese or American weather bureaus and we get them via the internet via our KVH satellite system aboard ship.  At sea you can be 1000's of mile from any land and satellite is the only form of communication other than HF radio.  Yes, we also get our weather maps via HF weatherFAX but we used that mostly for backup in case the satellite system went off line.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: JRowe on December 03, 2018, 07:27:47 PM
Again, you are way off.  Our weather maps usually come from the Japanese or American weather bureaus and we get them via the internet via our KVH satellite system aboard ship.  At sea you can be 1000's of mile from any land and satellite is the only form of communication other than HF radio.  Yes, we also get our weather maps via HF weatherFAX but we used that mostly for backup in case the satellite system went off line.
Weather prediction has nothing to do with maps, beyond the basic 'it's here.'

Simple question: do you simply use data saying a preprogrammed route and do that blindfolded, or do you constantly need to respond to new information and things, lite satellites, that let you know where you are relative to everything else?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: RonJ on December 03, 2018, 07:34:51 PM
Many times we must respond often with a course change due to weather and/or other factors.  Other times the course may be clear and we can navigate the whole distance using a pre-programmed route. We rely on accurate charts EVERY time.  Our speed can vary due to winds and waves and the weather may be foggy or cloudy for more than 90% of the trip.   
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: JRowe on December 03, 2018, 08:06:18 PM
Many times we must respond often with a course change due to weather and/or other factors.  Other times the course may be clear and we can navigate the whole distance using a pre-programmed route. We rely on accurate charts EVERY time.  Our speed can vary due to winds and waves and the weather may be foggy or cloudy for more than 90% of the trip.   
Are you purposefully ignoring every word I've said, or are you just not reading my posts?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: RonJ on December 03, 2018, 08:32:30 PM
Again, you are way off.  Our weather maps usually come from the Japanese or American weather bureaus and we get them via the internet via our KVH satellite system aboard ship.  At sea you can be 1000's of mile from any land and satellite is the only form of communication other than HF radio.  Yes, we also get our weather maps via HF weatherFAX but we used that mostly for backup in case the satellite system went off line.
Weather prediction has nothing to do with maps, beyond the basic 'it's here.'

Simple question: do you simply use data saying a preprogrammed route and do that blindfolded, or do you constantly need to respond to new information and things, lite satellites, that let you know where you are relative to everything else?

We don't navigate anywhere 'blindfolded' we follow the best route to get from point A to point B based upon all the variables like weather and traffic conditions.  We always try to stay on a great circle route because that's the shortest distance between point A and point B.  We constantly respond to new information and use satellites to let us know where we are relative to everything else.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: JRowe on December 03, 2018, 09:07:47 PM
We constantly respond to new information and use satellites to let us know where we are relative to everything else.
And there you go.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: RonJ on December 03, 2018, 09:17:48 PM
Just keep in mind that we use WGS-84 or British Admiralty charts that are strictly based upon the Globe Earth paradigm.  A flat earth chart would quickly get us lost.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Spingo on December 03, 2018, 09:41:35 PM
I think most people are missing an important fundemental point. The world map was not created overnight by one person or even one group or even one nation. It was an international effort that took hundreds of years to complete. Much of the impetus came from either commercial or military interests when nations were empire building and accurate maps were of vital strategic importance.

Accurate maps were made of both nation states and the land and sea routes between them, such as the most efficient and fastest sea routes between the ports of India and Britain. I think we forget how vital and important accurate maps were in those days and how much effort was put into their creation.

The idea that a single or even a group of flat earth believers could come together and produce alternative maps of the world is just preposterous as well as totally impossible.

To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 03, 2018, 09:43:55 PM
To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.

Have you assessed all possible layouts, continental configurations, jet stream paths, navigational assumptions, to make that statement?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: RonJ on December 03, 2018, 09:58:23 PM
It's impossible at the present time to make any navigation paths on a flat earth chart because there are no detailed paper charts available that I know of.  I can't even find a usable one on the FET website that I could download and print.  One is needed that shows accurate latitude and longitude lines on it.  Additionally it would have to have a good, accurate scale so distances could be determined.  If one becomes available please let me know.  Then I would be happy to show you that it would never work for any practical navigational purposes.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 03, 2018, 10:01:17 PM
It's impossible at the present time to make any navigation paths on a flat earth chart because there are no detailed paper charts available that I know of.  I can't even find a usable one on the FET website that I could download and print.  One is needed that shows accurate latitude and longitude lines on it.  Additionally it would have to have a good, accurate scale so distances could be determined.  If one becomes available please let me know.  Then I would be happy to show you that it would never work for any practical navigational purposes.

I don't recall us ever designing or making a map; only discussions about models with one or two poles. If you are trying to disprove something, then we expect you to disprove all possibilities.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: RonJ on December 03, 2018, 10:09:26 PM
How can I disprove "A" unless I know exactly what "A" is.  I could never prove that an animal inside a box was a cat if you were looking for a proof for a dog.  For FET to be anything but a farce you should  'square yourself in the hatch' and put out a map defining exactly what you consider the flat earth geography to be.  Otherwise it looks like you aren't really trying to get to the truth, but just trying to encourage more controversy.   
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 03, 2018, 10:12:08 PM
It's impossible at the present time to make any navigation paths on a flat earth chart because there are no detailed paper charts available that I know of.  I can't even find a usable one on the FET website that I could download and print.  One is needed that shows accurate latitude and longitude lines on it.  Additionally it would have to have a good, accurate scale so distances could be determined.  If one becomes available please let me know.  Then I would be happy to show you that it would never work for any practical navigational purposes.

I don't recall us ever designing or making a map; only discussions about models with one or two poles. If you are trying to disprove something, then we expect you to disprove all possibilities.

So far the possibilities presented by FET have shown to be inadequate and inaccurate in comparison to what is successfully used globally for navigation/transport, which are maps based upon a spherical earth. If there are other possible models that haven't been presented, then they should be presented so that they may be examined as well.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 03, 2018, 10:21:28 PM
How can I disprove "A" unless I know exactly what "A" is.  I could never prove that an animal inside a box was a cat if you were looking for a proof for a dog.  For FET to be anything but a farce you should  'square yourself in the hatch' and put out a map defining exactly what you consider the flat earth geography to be.  Otherwise it looks like you aren't really trying to get to the truth, but just trying to encourage more controversy.

There is zero budget to map the world. A lot of the real data is hidden behind multiple layers of assumptions, fixes, and mapping re-projections. I am planning to explain more as my next project after the Universal Accelerator project.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: inquisitive on December 03, 2018, 10:26:38 PM
How can I disprove "A" unless I know exactly what "A" is.  I could never prove that an animal inside a box was a cat if you were looking for a proof for a dog.  For FET to be anything but a farce you should  'square yourself in the hatch' and put out a map defining exactly what you consider the flat earth geography to be.  Otherwise it looks like you aren't really trying to get to the truth, but just trying to encourage more controversy.

There is zero budget to map the world. A lot of the real data is hidden behind multiple layers of assumptions, fixes, and mapping re-projections. I am planning to explain more as my next project after the Universal Accelerator project.
With some budget how would you map the world? How do you explain that measured distances help determine the shape of an object and do you agree the WGS84 shape is correct?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Spingo on December 03, 2018, 10:28:44 PM
I'm going to say something that's more than likely going to be taken out of context for people to jump down my throat for, but hear me out: people don't use maps for navigation.

On any scale beyond your basic shopping center map, they aren't going to be nearly as useful as landmarks. Ok, yes, you need a map to get a vague idea of what's near where, but that doesn't need to be particularly accurate. Does it really affect your driving if the roads on an atlas are a few degrees off, or centimeters too long, or do you just care about the road names and junctions?
Even at sea, they use the stars as reference points. All they really need a map for is to work out which constellation to head for, and by the time they get closer they can just use their eyes. Ok, we can see land, it has that feature which exists there, so we want to head that way... You don't need a particularly accurate map for any of that.
Landmarks are the most important part of navigation, far more than a 100% accurate map. A sketched out sheet that notes down roughly how they relate to each other is as useful as the most accurate flat or spherical map in the world, and even that can be replaced by a few notes. If you try to follow a map alone by, say, ship, you're going to get screwed over in your first day at sea if your angle isn't accurate to within 0.01 degrees, or if there's a single wave or odd wind that adjusts that angle. That's true for any journey, there's no perfect means to point yourself in one direction and go, so the means to course correct are required for navigation, and that's where landmarks come in. 'Head 100km 10 degrees from North,' isn't nearly as useful as 'take the third left, if you reach Burger King you've gone too far.'

So in answer to your question:
1. Yes, there are flat Earth maps that work just fine so long as you use your common sense.
2. No, they don't work alone, but then no map does.

From your answer I don’t think you have either hiked in really wild remote country or sailed in dangerous rock strewn costal waters where navigation and proper use of maps is vital. In fact sailing in costal waters without proper maratime charts and navigational knowhow is dicing with death.

If you were to embark on a journey by car you have never done before, for example Calais to Athens, to do that without a proper map would be impossible, excluding of course the use of GPS. I think neither the stars or common sense would be of much help.

You mention flat earth maps, what are they, where did you get them, who made them and how do they differ from real maps?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Spingo on December 03, 2018, 10:38:58 PM
How can I disprove "A" unless I know exactly what "A" is.  I could never prove that an animal inside a box was a cat if you were looking for a proof for a dog.  For FET to be anything but a farce you should  'square yourself in the hatch' and put out a map defining exactly what you consider the flat earth geography to be.  Otherwise it looks like you aren't really trying to get to the truth, but just trying to encourage more controversy.

There is zero budget to map the world. A lot of the real data is hidden behind multiple layers of assumptions, fixes, and mapping re-projections. I am planning to explain more as my next project after the Universal Accelerator project.

The world has been extensively mapped for the last 500 years.
How do you imagine people managed to build the extensive road and rail networks we currently use over the five continents? The same road and rail networks that are used by billions every day?

Take Russia for example are you claiming it’s huge landmass has not been mapped? Are you saying the route of the trans Siberian railway is not known? Are you also saying the vast fleets of container ships that cross the oceans carrying all the raw materials and finished goods don’t know where they are going, and when they do arrive they do so by luck?

I don’t quite understand your point. Knowing where you are on the planet has nothing to do with what global mapping projection your world map uses.

Lastly you mention multiple layers of assumptions. Could you please explain the nature of these assumptions as well as the significance of the layering.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Spingo on December 03, 2018, 10:48:22 PM
To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.

Have you assessed all possible layouts, continental configurations, jet stream paths, navigational assumptions, to make that statement?

I’m not sure what the jet stream or it path has to do with the accuracy of a road map nor naval chart?
Regarding assumptions when I drove on Route 66 back in the day the assumption I made was the maps I bought for the trip would be correct,  and you know what......so they were, I arrived at all the motels I had booked.

The other assumptions I make are based on all the millions of journeys that are carried out every day based on commercial maps, where everyone reaches their chosen destinations.

If you imagine there are problems  with our current maps, what exactly are the nature of these problems and which maps are affected? Why have these problems not been reported?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on December 04, 2018, 10:58:13 AM
Every single person you mention is from before even the first expedition into Antarctica. Do you have any reports from this or last century?
Incorrect.
Oh? Did they somehow live past their stated DoD?
James Cook: Died in 1779
James Weddel: Died in 1834
James Clark Ross: Died in 1862
Charles Wilkes: Died in 1877

Not a single one who was alive in the 20th century, much less the 21st. If you are referring to someone else that happens to share the same name, please provide an actual link to a source. Oh, and btw the first Antarctic expedition? 1907-1909 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod_Expedition So yeah, every single one of them was dead before we started exploring Antarctica.

They ARE fairly routine. You've got boat tours and cruises that happen multiple times per year: https://www.adventure-life.com/antarctica

You've got a yearly race around the continent: http://www.acronautic.com/antartica-cup-ocean-race/

Yet all you can give me for navigation failure/error is reports from before the last century!
20 times a year (perhaps) they take place and this constitutes, "frequent," according to you?

If you are so familiar with these supposed routine Antarctica cruises, you should be able to quite easily find:

TOTAL # of cruises per year.
Frequent =/= routine. YOU suggest these errors happen frequently. You then suggested voyages in the Southern Ocean aren't routine. I'd say anything that happens that many times in a year for as long as some of those have been going on is fairly routine. But perhaps you disagree with me.

One particular instance of the newest and best liner available (according to the press) and discover the trip had to be shortened considerably due to inaccurate charts necessitating course corrections. particularly near Tierra Del Fuego.
Seriously, just give me a fucking link to your source. Your claim, your burden.
While technically no one is reported to have disembarked on the actual Antarctic shelf, these voyages I have listed were indeed exploratory and did make journal entries regarding the area considered to be the Antarctic continent.

No person on the face of the planet considers any trip through the Southern Ocean, "routine"; as a matter of fact, these voyages are beyond routine, necessitating extra planning and measures beyond those occurring in other oceans.

All you need to do is to look at any one of the videos provided regarding these cruises involving newer vessels.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on December 04, 2018, 11:05:37 AM
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
My point is the map is flat.
Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?
Yes and yes.

And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.
Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.

What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.

They do for most areas of the flat earth.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: rabinoz on December 04, 2018, 11:58:39 AM
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
My point is the map is flat.
And everyone else's point is that your map might be flat but it is not a flat-earth map.

Quote from: totallackey
Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?
Yes and yes.

And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.
Sure your map might be flat but is it a flat-earth map? Yes or no!

Quote from: totallackey
Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.

What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.

They do for most areas of the flat earth.
Please show me a flat-earth map that is accurate "for most areas of the flat earth" because I know that the Ice-Wall grossly distorts the shapes of countries south of the equator

The left hand map is and 1855 one from surveys prior to that time and the one on the right is Australia as on "Gleason's 1892" map:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/yqh9iqdddv88soa/Map%20of%20Australia%201855%20-%20768x640.jpg?dl=1)
Map of Australia 1855
           (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hnfgrdfc9iyrc6t/1892%20-%20Gleason%27s%20Map%20Scaled%20-%20Australia%2C%20no%20dimensions.jpg?dl=1)
1892 - Gleason's Map Scaled - Australia
The dimensions scaled off the 1855 map are very close to the current dimensions from Google Earth, etc.

I live in Australia and I know which is NOT anywhere near the correct shape!

Now look at the areas of the USA and Australia on the usual FE map:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/k5azcyxtrnmqzcf/1892-new-standard-map-of-the-world%20-%20round.jpg?dl=1)
1892-new-standard-map-of-the-world

Compare the true sizes of Australia and the United States:
Quote
Australia's Size Compared
Australia is the planet's sixth largest country after Russia, Canada, China, the USA, and Brazil. At 7,692,024 km2.
(http://www.ga.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0016/12535/GA6264.gif)
Note that the area of the contiguous United States is 8,080,464 km2, a little larger than the area of Australia yet, on that flat-earth map, Australia looks at least twice the area of the United States.

Now, if perchance, I have chosen the incorrect map for the flat earth, please show us the correct one.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: edby on December 04, 2018, 12:15:49 PM
To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.

Have you assessed all possible layouts, continental configurations, jet stream paths, navigational assumptions, to make that statement?
Not necessary. Take four points reasonably far apart from each other, then measure the six distances between them. Geometry will do the rest. If earth is not flat, the distances between these points will not be consistent with the distances calculated on the assumption it is flat.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: edby on December 04, 2018, 12:22:28 PM
On the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.

I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: rabinoz on December 04, 2018, 12:45:03 PM
To answer the original question, the idea that a flat earth map could be produced that someone could navigate by is an impossibility.

Have you assessed all possible layouts, continental configurations, jet stream paths, navigational assumptions, to make that statement?
Not necessary. Take four points reasonably far apart from each other, then measure the six distances between them. Geometry will do the rest. If earth is not flat, the distances between these points will not be consistent with the distances calculated on the assumption it is flat.
That's true but few flat-earthers will accept those distances as accurate. That is why so many try to estimate distances from aircraft flight times.
This from an earlier post and uses great circle distances:
For example take the international airports at Johannesburg (JNB), Dubai (DBX), Beijing (PEK) and Sydney (SYD).
The nominal distances between these airports (from Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com/dist?P=SYD-PEK&DU=km&DM=&SG=&SU=kph)) is:
   
DBX
   
PEK
   
SYD
JNB
   
6,390 km
   
11,699 km
   
11,045 km
DBX
   
xxx
   
5,857 km
   
12,039 km
PEK
   
xxx
   
xxx
   
8,934 km

Now if we take the Johannesburg (JNB) to Sydney (Syd) flight (11,119 km) as a baseline we can use
      the routes JNB to SYD, JNB to DXB and JNB to DXB to calculate the location of Dubai, relative to Johannesburg and Sydney and use
      the routes JNB to SYD, JNB to PEK and SYD to PEK to calculate the location of Beijing, relative to Johannesburg and Sydney.
Then the distance from Dubai to Beijing can be calculated or scaled off a diagram - I did both.

This shown here:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/hqz4t9449b9n2vo/JNB-DBX-PEK-SYD%20Flat%20Air%20Routes.png?dl=1)
JNB-DBX-PEK-SYD Flat Air Routes
This distance from Dubai to Beijing is 7,608 km calculated in Excel.
But the actual air route distance from Dubai to Beijing is not 7,608 km but 5,857 km.
So these flight distances do not fit on any flat surface.

Now the distances I have used are just the nominal distances and real flight distances would all be a little longer.

Some other kind person might like to go to the trouble of looking up actual flights on FlightRadar24 (https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights) or FlightAware, QANTAS QFA64, JNB to SYD (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA64/history/20171019/1710Z/FAOR/YSSY)
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on December 04, 2018, 06:33:40 PM
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
My point is the map is flat.
And everyone else's point is that your map might be flat but it is not a flat-earth map.

Quote from: totallackey
Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?
Yes and yes.

And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.
Sure your map might be flat but is it a flat-earth map? Yes or no!

Quote from: totallackey
Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.

What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.

They do for most areas of the flat earth.
Please show me a flat-earth map that is accurate "for most areas of the flat earth" because I know that the Ice-Wall grossly distorts the shapes of countries south of the equator

The left hand map is and 1855 one from surveys prior to that time and the one on the right is Australia as on "Gleason's 1892" map:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/yqh9iqdddv88soa/Map%20of%20Australia%201855%20-%20768x640.jpg?dl=1)
Map of Australia 1855
           (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hnfgrdfc9iyrc6t/1892%20-%20Gleason%27s%20Map%20Scaled%20-%20Australia%2C%20no%20dimensions.jpg?dl=1)
1892 - Gleason's Map Scaled - Australia
The dimensions scaled off the 1855 map are very close to the current dimensions from Google Earth, etc.

I live in Australia and I know which is NOT anywhere near the correct shape!

Now look at the areas of the USA and Australia on the usual FE map:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/k5azcyxtrnmqzcf/1892-new-standard-map-of-the-world%20-%20round.jpg?dl=1)
1892-new-standard-map-of-the-world

Compare the true sizes of Australia and the United States:
Quote
Australia's Size Compared
Australia is the planet's sixth largest country after Russia, Canada, China, the USA, and Brazil. At 7,692,024 km2.
(http://www.ga.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0016/12535/GA6264.gif)
Note that the area of the contiguous United States is 8,080,464 km2, a little larger than the area of Australia yet, on that flat-earth map, Australia looks at least twice the area of the United States.

Now, if perchance, I have chosen the incorrect map for the flat earth, please show us the correct one.
All maps depict a flat earth.

They are drawn on flat paper.

In regard to how area/size is depicted, when I was growing up, Greenland used to be twice the size of Africa.

Your objection, while noted, is specious and inconsequential.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on December 04, 2018, 06:40:05 PM
On the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.

I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
Yeah, I would like to obtain a copy of that.

Name the work please.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 04, 2018, 06:59:48 PM
All maps depict a flat earth.

That is incorrect. And there currently is not a flat earth map. Those that are depicted as such are various Globe projections. Which, in and of itself, is ironic.

(https://i.imgur.com/7vhoajb.jpg)

They are drawn on flat paper.

Or on spheres or other 3d shapes.

In regard to how area/size is depicted, when I was growing up, Greenland used to be twice the size of Africa.

Depends upon which globe projection you are looking at.

Your objection, while noted, is specious and inconsequential.

Your statements are not well informed and don't represent reality.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 04, 2018, 07:25:33 PM
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 04, 2018, 07:36:35 PM
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.

Many folks have already done that for us to the betterment and accuracy and safety of today's global travel/transport.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Spingo on December 04, 2018, 07:37:19 PM
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.
My point is the map is flat.
Have you ever undertaken a long journey by road to a place you have never been to before? If so did you use a map?
Yes and yes.

And on that journey, the map I utilized was flat and the ground upon which I traversed was also (aside from mountains, hills, valleys, and dales) flat.
Why is it millions of people every day, long distance drivers for example, complete their journeys using roads that were surveyed using conventional maps. All the evidence points to them working.

What you would have to do is supply actual evidence to the contrary.
I have no evidence to the contrary that maps work.

They do for most areas of the flat earth.

Maps are indeed flat, so are TVs, cinema screens, computer screens and magazines!
Not sure what point your trying to make.

The map you used I imagine was a commercial map, not a flat earth alternative, that you found was suitable for the task. The data it utilised was part of a bigger data set that was based on the earth being a sphere. The reason it was printed on paper, and flat was so it could fit  neatly in your glove compartment. If you look at your map, if you still have it you will find it’s a pictorial representation of that part of the world drawn to a suitable scale. The map would have most likely have shown forests, mountains, towns and cities....are all these things flat?
I was watching a tv show about Africa just the other day on my flat screen TV.....were all the things depicted flat? Trees, lions, water buffalo? What do you think?

If you agree that maps are a true representation of the world then it follows that there is no possibility for an alternative flat earth version that would require land masses to be shuffled around.

Of course the earth appears flat to those like us living on its surface, what else would you expect given it’s size?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Spingo on December 04, 2018, 07:48:23 PM
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.

I’m not sure if there is a thread on this site that deals with that. However the history of cartography gives a good and clear account of how the incremental mapping of the world took place over time. I’m sure you will know how much work is involved in producing a map of even a small area which is why im sure you would also agree it would be an impossible task for a single individual or even a small group to create a map of the world.
With all the world accurately mapped how could there be room for an alternative? If you think there are  areas of the globe that have been incorrectly mapped could you tell us which areas they are and why you think the current maps are wrong?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: rabinoz on December 04, 2018, 09:18:29 PM
On the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.

I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
Yeah, I would like to obtain a copy of that.

Name the work please.
This is not Scott's own account but does contain the most southerly point reached:
Quote
The Story of RRS Discovery (https://www.rrsdiscovery.com/exploration-article/the-story/)
Southern Journey

On November 2nd 1902 Scott, Wilson and Shackleton set off to cross the Great Ice Barrier and explore the frozen desert beyond. With them were nineteen dogs pulling five sledges laden with 1,853 lbs of supplies and equipment. On November 25th they had passed latitude 80º south, charting new lands and features every day. But there was a heavy price to pay. One by one the under-nourished dogs began to die. The men too were beginning to suffer dreadfully. They carried on until December 30th, when, at latitude 82º 17’, they reluctantly turned for home. Shackleton was in the advanced stages of scurvy, incapacitated and coughing up blood through his congested throat. Against near impossible odds they arrived back at Discovery on February 3rd 1903. They had trudged over 950 miles in 93 days, travelling further south than any man before them.

By December 1903 there was 20 miles of ice between Discovery and the open sea with no apparent way out. On January 4th 1904 two relief ships arrived, Morning and Terra Nova. Finally, on February 16th controlled explosions were used to blow Discovery free from her icy prison and the expedition headed for home.

Landfall was made at Spithead on September 10th 1904 to a rapturous reception. Scott was acclaimed as a national hero and awarded numerous honours.

And here is a 1906 map of Antarctica:
Quote
Maps Owje: ANTARCTICA MAP 1906 (http://mapas.owje.com/maps/10960_antarctica-map-1906.html)
(http://mapas.owje.com/img/Mapa-historico-de-la-Antartida-1906-975.jpg)
Inset maps of Cape Town, Cape of Good Hope, Magalhaes Strait, Hobart, Port Elizabeth. Source: Justhus Perthes

I wonder why they forgot that Antarctica was a ring continent around the earth.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 04, 2018, 09:36:47 PM
That map appears to suggest that the Antarctic coast was only partially explored.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: rabinoz on December 04, 2018, 09:48:49 PM
That map appears to suggest that the Antarctic coast was only partially explored.
It was only partly explored at that time because lots of pack-ice got in the way of the land but the perimeter of that was mapped at least approximately - its position changes.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Spingo on December 04, 2018, 09:49:52 PM
That map appears to suggest that the Antarctic coast was only partially explored.

While that may we’ll have even the case back in 1906, it’s certinally not the case now. In fact my son is about to head off to Antartica on Saturday to do some filming for a specialised holiday company for 10 days. They operate tours there every year during the Antartic summer. Also did you watch the recent David Attenborough program ‘Dynasty’ which focused on the life of the Emperor penguin. Totally fantastic viewing, well worth watching.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: iamcpc on December 05, 2018, 05:19:38 PM
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?

I found this map to be pretty accurate:

https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 05, 2018, 07:53:59 PM
Has anybody ever made a Flat-Earth map that can bring me from A to B to C, with all angles and distances matching reality AND usable for distances upwards of 1000 km? May I pretty please see it?

I was wondering: If the FE-maps of old were correct, then how were the seafaring navigators tricked into giving up their accurate FE-maps for inaccurate SE-maps and how come no seafaring navigator has ever complained that the SE-maps give wrong distances and wrong angles?

I found this map to be pretty accurate:

https://search.yahoo.com/search/?p=maps

It is accurate to an extent. It's a Mercator projection. As in that it's 'projected', derived from a globe. In doing so, for this type of globe projection, you see some landmass distortion, e.g., Greenland appearing the size of Africa.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: iamcpc on December 06, 2018, 05:45:59 PM
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.

Is this serious? There are planes, trains, cars, horses, motorcycles and the link who can navigate hundreds and thousands of square miles on this planet.

I believe, from personal experience, this can be done using a map. Please don't take my word for it. Take a road trip across America.

What tools do you believe are making this possible?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 06, 2018, 05:55:50 PM
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.

Is this serious? There are planes, trains, cars, horses, motorcycles and the link who can navigate hundreds and thousands of square miles on this planet.

I believe, from personal experience, this can be done using a map. Please don't take my word for it. Take a road trip across America.

What tools do you believe are making this possible?

Traditional flat map making methods are making it possible. See the following article:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections (https://gis.utah.gov/nad83-and-webmercator-projections/)

The above article explains that on the inside of the spherical models such as WebMercator (the web based version of WSG 84), it takes data from a mess of smaller flat maps to present more accurate data. The flat maps are more accurate, as the author describes.

NAD83 = Flat Map Coordinate System

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System

Quote
The State Plane Coordinate System (SPS or SPCS) is a set of 124 geographic zones or coordinate systems designed for specific regions of the United States. Each state contains one or more state plane zones, the boundaries of which usually follow county lines. There are 110 zones in the contiguous US, with 10 more in Alaska, 5 in Hawaii, and one for Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands. The system is widely used for geographic data by state and local governments. Its popularity is due to at least two factors. First, it uses a simple Cartesian coordinate system to specify locations rather than a more complex spherical coordinate system (the geographic coordinate system of latitude and longitude). By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations.


Lower down in that article:

Quote
Originally, the state plane coordinate systems were based on the North American Datum of 1927 (NAD27). Later, the more accurate North American Datum of 1983 (NAD83) became the standard (a geodetic datum is the way a coordinate system is linked to the physical Earth). More recently there has been an effort to increase the accuracy of the NAD83 datum using technology that was not available in 1983.

The government says so as well:

https://catalog.data.gov/dataset/united-states-stateplane-zones-nad83

Quote
United States Stateplane Zones - NAD83
Metadata Updated: August 11, 2016

U.S. State Plane Zones (NAD 1983) represents the State Plane Coordinate System (SPCS) Zones for the 1983 North American Datum within United States.

NAD83 is a flat coordinate system.

Web Mercator = WSG 84

The full name of Web Mercator is WGS 84 Web Mercator

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Mercator_projection

Quote
While the Web Mercator's formulas are for the spherical form of the Mercator, geographical coordinates are required to be in the WGS 84 ellipsoidal datum.

It's a web-based version of WGS 84. The WGS part is also mentioned in the Earth Not Round! article.


...

https://www.gpsworld.com/data-collection-of-wgs-84-information-or-is-it/

Quote
In the meantime, here are a few of the main differences between WGS 84 and NAD83:

The coordinate system for WGS 84 is geographic, and the NAD83 system is projected.


https://www.gpsworld.com/data-collection-of-wgs-84-information-or-is-it/

Quote
WGS84 doesn't define a projection, so it's up to the GIS software to decide which projection to use for displaying the data on the screen (unless you manually pick a projection, of course).

Take a look at the list of projections for ARCGIS software:

http://desktop.arcgis.com/en/arcmap/latest/map/projections/pdf/geographic_transformations.pdf

NAD83 is one of them. These are all flat coordinate systems for different locations around the earth. It's taking data from flat systems, because as the "Earth Not Round!" article said, it is these flat systems that are more accurate and give out more accurate figures.

If you want accurate maps, just use a version of WSG 84 such as Web Mercator.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: edby on December 06, 2018, 06:06:34 PM
On the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.

I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
Yeah, I would like to obtain a copy of that.

Name the work please.
The Voyage of the Discovery

There is a copy online here (https://archive.org/details/voyageofdiscover01scot), the map I was talking about is at p 410 here (https://archive.org/details/voyageofdiscover01scot/page/410).
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: inquisitive on December 06, 2018, 07:28:39 PM
Tom - the souce data is the spherical earth model WGS84.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: markjo on December 06, 2018, 08:11:49 PM
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.

Is this serious? There are planes, trains, cars, horses, motorcycles and the link who can navigate hundreds and thousands of square miles on this planet.

I believe, from personal experience, this can be done using a map. Please don't take my word for it. Take a road trip across America.

What tools do you believe are making this possible?

Traditional flat map making methods are making it possible. See the following article:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections (https://gis.utah.gov/nad83-and-webmercator-projections/)

The above article explains that on the inside of the spherical models such as WebMercator (the web based version of WSG 84), it takes data from a mess of smaller flat maps to present more accurate data. The flat maps are more accurate, as the author describes.

NAD83 = Flat Map Coordinate System

No, that isn't quite what that article says.
Quote from: https://gis.utah.gov/nad83-and-webmercator-projections/
UTM NAD83 is a projected coordinate system that represents physical locations abstracted to a flat, cartesian coordinate system. The UTM NAD83 projection uses the GRS80 ellipsoid and a center-of-the-earth anchor point as its datum, both of which are slightly different than the WGS datum.

Notice the key words "projected" and "abstracted" when the author describes the NAD836 flat coordinate system's relationship to the GRS80 ellipsoid source data.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 06, 2018, 08:27:07 PM
If you believe that the earth is round then you believe that the round earth locations have been abstracted to the flat map of NAD83. It has a simple x and y coordinate system. There is no z. It's a state plane coordinate system. References are provided above.

It says that it uses the GRS80 ellipsoid as its center-of-earth anchor point datum, likely to integrate with other systems such as WGS; not that it's a round earth map.

From https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog862/book/export/html/1644 we read:

Quote
    Welcome to Lesson Six of this GPS course. And this time, we'll be talking about two coordinate systems. And I have a little bit of discussion concerning heights. We've touched on that a little bit. Now these coordinate systems that we're going to discuss are plane coordinate systems based upon the fiction that the earth is flat, which, of course, immediately introduces distortion. However, much of GIS work—and GPS work as well—is done based upon this presumption.


Another comment: https://www.pobonline.com/articles/86585-geodetic-surveying-made-plain

Quote
    A decade or two ago, I was the instructor for some introductory surveying courses at a community college. In the first class we would define “plane surveying” as surveying that did not take into consideration the curvature of earth, and “geodetic surveying” as that which did. That was about the only time the two categories received anywhere near equal attention. Oh, we would point out (still in that first lecture) some of the real-world evidence of a non-flat earth, such as the fact that the length of an 11.5-mile arc on the earth's surface is only five hundredths of a foot longer than its subtended chord, or that the sum of the angles in a spherical triangle on the earth’s surface having an area of 75 square miles is only one second greater than the angle sum of the same size plane triangle. (Even today I get a kick out of those dramatic tidbits. I’m sure a real geodesist would roll his or her eyes at such trivia!) But those examples were used as reasons for not focusing—no, for not mentioning—geodetic concepts for the rest of the semester. We would end the ten-minute token nod to geodetic surveying with the tongue-in-cheek remark, “Therefore, for this class, we will respect the time-honored principle handed down through the ages—that the earth is flat.” And, truth be known, that’s probably not a bad narrowing of a dauntingly broad subject.

    But more than narrowing, it was simply that few rank-and-file surveyors in private practice ever had occasion to use geodetic concepts in their daily work. Even when we dutifully enrolled in the occasional State Plane Coordinate seminar, the principles quickly faded from memory from lack of use. If a surveyor from the general population had ever even heard of the geoid and its relationship to the ellipsoid, and where mean sea level fit into the picture, hearing about it was as far it went.


Flat Maps = Standard


Here is another source that the spherical models rely on the flat maps:

https://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/met/Align/GPS/CCS83.pdf

Quote
    The State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
    geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
    these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
    significant error.

    A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
    the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
    positions.
Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
    Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
    the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
    latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.

Again, we see read that Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be "projected" to their corresponding plane coordinate positions for these spherical earth models to work.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: inquisitive on December 06, 2018, 08:34:58 PM
If you believe that the earth is round then you believe that the round earth locations have been abstracted to the flat map of NAD83. It has a simple x and y coordinate system. There is no z. It's a state plane coordinate system. References are provided above.

It says that it uses the GRS80 ellipsoid as its center-of-earth anchor point, likely to integrate with other systems such as WGS; not that it's a round earth map.

From https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog862/book/export/html/1644 we read:

Quote
Welcome to Lesson Six of this GPS course. And this time, we'll be talking about two coordinate systems. And I have a little bit of discussion concerning heights. We've touched on that a little bit. Now these coordinate systems that we're going to discuss are plane coordinate systems based upon the fiction that the earth is flat, which, of course, immediately introduces distortion. However, much of GIS work—and GPS work as well—is done based upon this presumption.

Another comment: https://www.pobonline.com/articles/86585-geodetic-surveying-made-plain

Quote
A decade or two ago, I was the instructor for some introductory surveying courses at a community college. In the first class we would define “plane surveying” as surveying that did not take into consideration the curvature of earth, and “geodetic surveying” as that which did. That was about the only time the two categories received anywhere near equal attention. Oh, we would point out (still in that first lecture) some of the real-world evidence of a non-flat earth, such as the fact that the length of an 11.5-mile arc on the earth's surface is only five hundredths of a foot longer than its subtended chord, or that the sum of the angles in a spherical triangle on the earth’s surface having an area of 75 square miles is only one second greater than the angle sum of the same size plane triangle. (Even today I get a kick out of those dramatic tidbits. I’m sure a real geodesist would roll his or her eyes at such trivia!) But those examples were used as reasons for not focusing—no, for not mentioning—geodetic concepts for the rest of the semester. We would end the ten-minute token nod to geodetic surveying with the tongue-in-cheek remark, “Therefore, for this class, we will respect the time-honored principle handed down through the ages—that the earth is flat.” And, truth be known, that’s probably not a bad narrowing of a dauntingly broad subject.

But more than narrowing, it was simply that few rank-and-file surveyors in private practice ever had occasion to use geodetic concepts in their daily work. Even when we dutifully enrolled in the occasional State Plane Coordinate seminar, the principles quickly faded from memory from lack of use. If a surveyor from the general population had ever even heard of the geoid and its relationship to the ellipsoid, and where mean sea level fit into the picture, hearing about it was as far it went.

Flat Maps = Standard


Here is another source that the spherical models rely on the flat maps:

https://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/met/Align/GPS/CCS83.pdf

Quote
The State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
significant error.

A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
positions
. Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.

Again, we see read that Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be "projected" on to their corresponding plane coordinate position for these spherical earth models to work.
Actual distances prove the round earth is the starting point.  Cartography then produces maps.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 06, 2018, 08:46:45 PM
Traditional flat map making methods are making it possible. See the following article:

The Earth is Not Round! Utah, NAD83 and WebMercator Projections (https://gis.utah.gov/nad83-and-webmercator-projections/)

The above article explains that on the inside of the spherical models such as WebMercator (the web based version of WSG 84), it takes data from a mess of smaller flat maps to present more accurate data. The flat maps are more accurate, as the author describes.

Fact Check: False

No where in the article does it state: "it takes data from a mess of smaller flat maps to present more accurate data."

The article states this about WebMercator (the web based version of WSG 84): "In short, it uses the same WGS84 datum as the GPS system.”

World Geodetic System (WGS84)
"The Global Positioning System uses the World Geodetic System (WGS84) as its reference coordinate system. It comprises of a reference ellipsoid, a standard coordinate system, altitude data and a geoid.
Because the Earth is curved – and in GIS we deal with flat map projections – we need to accommodate both the curved and flat views of the world. Surveyors and geodesists have accurately defined locations on Earth.”

https://gisgeography.com/wgs84-world-geodetic-system/

NAD83 = Flat Map Coordinate System

Fact Check: Misleading

"The North American Datum of 1983 (NAD 83) is the most current datum being used in North America. It provides latitude and longitude and some height information using the reference ellipsoid GRS80.”

NAD83 is derived from an ellipsoid earth model, not a flat earth model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System

Quote
The State Plane Coordinate System (SPS or SPCS) is a set of 124 geographic zones or coordinate systems designed for specific regions of the United States. Each state contains one or more state plane zones, the boundaries of which usually follow county lines. There are 110 zones in the contiguous US, with 10 more in Alaska, 5 in Hawaii, and one for Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands. The system is widely used for geographic data by state and local governments. Its popularity is due to at least two factors. First, it uses a simple Cartesian coordinate system to specify locations rather than a more complex spherical coordinate system (the geographic coordinate system of latitude and longitude). By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations.

Fact Check: Misleading

You left off the last two sentences from the paragraph:

"Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."

NAD83 is a flat coordinate system.

Fact Check: Misleading

It is a datum based upon an ellipsoid earth model, not a flat earth model.

Web Mercator = WSG 84

The full name of Web Mercator is WGS 84 Web Mercator

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Mercator_projection

Quote
While the Web Mercator's formulas are for the spherical form of the Mercator, geographical coordinates are required to be in the WGS 84 ellipsoidal datum.

It's a web-based version of WGS 84. The WGS part is also mentioned in the Earth Not Round! article.

Fact Check: True

Web Mercator & WGS 84 are based on a spherical earth.

NAD83 is one of them. These are all flat coordinate systems for different locations around the earth. It's taking data from flat systems, because as the "Earth Not Round!" article said, it is these flat systems that are more accurate and give out more accurate figures.

Fact Check: False

As shown above, it is not taking data “from flat systems”, it is taking data from, among other things, a spherical (ellipsoid) earth model, not from a flat earth model.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 06, 2018, 08:51:10 PM
Nope. It says right here:

https://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/met/Align/GPS/CCS83.pdf

Quote
    The State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
    geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
    these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
    significant error.

    A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
    the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
    positions.
Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
    Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
    the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
    latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.

The State Plane Coordinate Systems are flat surfaces.

The Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be projected to their corresponding plane coordinate positions for these spherical earth models to work.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: inquisitive on December 06, 2018, 08:57:47 PM
Nope. It says right here:

https://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/met/Align/GPS/CCS83.pdf

Quote
    The State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
    geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
    these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
    significant error.

    A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
    the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
    positions.
Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
    Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
    the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
    latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.

The State Plane Coordinate Systems are flat surfaces.

The Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be projected to their corresponding plane coordinate positions for these spherical earth models to work.
The spherical earth model is reality.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 06, 2018, 08:58:27 PM
Nope. It says right here:

https://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/met/Align/GPS/CCS83.pdf

Quote
    The State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
    geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
    these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
    significant error.

    A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
    the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
    positions.
Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
    Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
    the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
    latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.

The State Plane Coordinate Systems are flat surfaces.

The Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be projected to their corresponding plane coordinate positions for these spherical earth models to work.

Untrue. "Geodetic positions on the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate positions."

It says nothing like, "in doing it makes these these spherical earth models work."

It's not working in reverse. Simply, a spherical model/datum is used then projected on to a flat map.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: totallackey on December 07, 2018, 01:45:46 PM
On the accuracy of pre-satellite navigation, I am just reading Scott's account of the 1901-2 Antarctic expedition, and comparing the coordinates he gives against Google. The expedition knew exactly where it was, all the time.

I am just at the part where they reach what they call "The Great Ice Barrier", now called the Ross Ice Shelf.
Yeah, I would like to obtain a copy of that.

Name the work please.
The Voyage of the Discovery

There is a copy online here (https://archive.org/details/voyageofdiscover01scot), the map I was talking about is at p 410 here (https://archive.org/details/voyageofdiscover01scot/page/410).
And your reading allows you to extrapolate what you provide here as substantive evidence of a continent?

Funny, the chart does not show a continent. It shows a portion of what could be anything as far as anyone is concerned.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 07, 2018, 02:19:53 PM
Nope. It says right here:

https://www-group.slac.stanford.edu/met/Align/GPS/CCS83.pdf

Quote
    The State Plane Coordinate System was established to provide a means for transferring the
    geodetic positions of monumented points to plane coordinates that would permit the use of
    these monuments in plane surveying over relatively large areas without introducing
    significant error.

    A plane-rectangular coordinate system is by definition a flat surface. Geodetic positions on
    the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate
    positions.
Projecting the curved surface onto a plane requires some form of deformation.
    Imagine the stretching and tearing necessary to flatten a piece of orange peel. In California
    the Lambert Conformal map projection is used to transform the geodetic positions of
    latitude and longitude into the y (Northing) and x (Easting) coordinates of the CCS83.

The State Plane Coordinate Systems are flat surfaces.

The Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be projected to their corresponding plane coordinate positions for these spherical earth models to work.

Untrue. "Geodetic positions on the curved surface of the earth must be “projected” to their corresponding plane coordinate positions."

It says nothing like, "in doing it makes these these spherical earth models work."

It's not working in reverse. Simply, a spherical model/datum is used then projected on to a flat map.

I believe the language has been very clear. See the following:

http://wvgis.wvu.edu/data/otherdocs/standardsandpubs/wv_coordinate_systems_jan02.html

Quote
Geographic Coordinate System (GCS): An unprojected coordinate system that uses latitude and longitude to define the locations of points on a sphere or spheroid. The use of longitude and latitude is encouraged for general reference and distribution of national framework data because it provides a seamless coordinate system for most of the United States. Geographic coordinates can be readily projected onto a planar coordinate system to display data properly or measure distances accurately. The Geographic Coordinate System is the recommended coordinate system for unprojected GIS data sets that cover the entire geographic extent of West Virginia.

...

State Plane Coordinate System (SPCS): A projected coordinate system used in the United State that divides each state into one or more zones to minimize distortion and to maintain accuracy of one part in 10,000. West Virginia State Plane, also known as the West Virginia Coordinate System of 1983 (referenced to NAD 1983 Datum), is based on the Lambert Conformal Conic projection. West Virginia State Plane is divided into two zones, the North Zone and South Zone. Section 30-13A-17, paragraph c of the West Virginia State Code http://wvgis.wvu.edu/otherdocs/standardsandpubs/spcs_wvcode.pdf states that the official unit of measure is meters, although many mapping professionals and surveyors still prefer U.S. Survey Feet. State Plane is utilized for large-scale mapping projects and is a popular projected coordinate system among county governments and land surveyors.

Please explain for us why a spherical model being projected onto a planar coordinate system would display data properly or measure distances accurately.

According to "common knowledge" the opposite should be true.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: markjo on December 07, 2018, 02:29:16 PM
I believe the language has been very clear. See the following:

http://wvgis.wvu.edu/data/otherdocs/standardsandpubs/wv_coordinate_systems_jan02.html

Quote
Geographic Coordinate System (GCS): An unprojected coordinate system that uses latitude and longitude to define the locations of points on a sphere or spheroid. The use of longitude and latitude is encouraged for general reference and distribution of national framework data because it provides a seamless coordinate system for most of the United States. Geographic coordinates can be readily projected onto a planar coordinate system to display data properly or measure distances accurately. The Geographic Coordinate System is the recommended coordinate system for unprojected GIS data sets that cover the entire geographic extent of West Virginia.

...

State Plane Coordinate System (SPCS): A projected coordinate system used in the United State that divides each state into one or more zones to minimize distortion and to maintain accuracy of one part in 10,000. West Virginia State Plane, also known as the West Virginia Coordinate System of 1983 (referenced to NAD 1983 Datum), is based on the Lambert Conformal Conic projection. West Virginia State Plane is divided into two zones, the North Zone and South Zone. Section 30-13A-17, paragraph c of the West Virginia State Code http://wvgis.wvu.edu/otherdocs/standardsandpubs/spcs_wvcode.pdf states that the official unit of measure is meters, although many mapping professionals and surveyors still prefer U.S. Survey Feet. State Plane is utilized for large-scale mapping projects and is a popular projected coordinate system among county governments and land surveyors.

Please explain for us why a spherical model being projected onto a planar coordinate system would display data properly or measure distances accurately.
Tom, you do realize that the quote that you provided answers your own question, don't you? 

According to "common knowledge" the opposite should be true.
Common knowledge says that the smaller the zones projected, the smaller the distortions.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 07, 2018, 02:35:52 PM
Markjo, whatever justification you want to give it, they are taking data from flat maps. I don't see how it can be successfully argued that the earth is round, but flat maps are used because they "minimize distortion".

All of this is entirely contrary to what you guys have been telling us for the last 13 years about these spherical models.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on December 07, 2018, 02:36:45 PM
The Geodetic positions on the spherical earth model must be projected to their corresponding plane coordinate positions for these spherical earth models to work.
I suspect you're trolling, but if the earth is flat then why is any projection necessary?
If the earth is flat and maps are flat then all you'd need to do is scale and the map would accurately represent the earth.
Projection is needed only if the earth isn't flat.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: inquisitive on December 07, 2018, 02:43:18 PM
Markjo, whatever justification you want to give it, they are taking data from flat maps. I don't see how it can be successfully argued that the earth is round, but flat maps are used because they "minimize distortion".

All of this is entirely contrary to what you guys have been telling us for the last 13 years about these spherical models.
Why do you need funding to produce a map of the world, which will be flat, when they exist according to you?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 07, 2018, 02:46:33 PM
Markjo, whatever justification you want to give it, they are taking data from flat maps. I don't see how it can be successfully argued that the earth is round, but flat maps are used because they "minimize distortion".

All of this is entirely contrary to what you guys have been telling us for the last 13 years about these spherical models.
Where do they state projecting it onto a flat plane 'minimizes distortion'? Was this from earlier? Your most recent one states

Quote
A projected coordinate system used in the United State that divides each state into one or more zones to minimize distortion

This is clearly noting they're using small areas so they maps created have minimal distortion from the correct spherical coordinates. There's nothing in here about the flat map minimizing distortion in comparison to using a globe, but rather that they need to use small chunks to minimize distortions when translating the source to a flat map. Once again it feels like you're reading what you want to read, not what is actually written.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Pinky on December 07, 2018, 03:20:44 PM
Markjo, whatever justification you want to give it, they are taking data from flat maps. I don't see how it can be successfully argued that the earth is round, but flat maps are used because they "minimize distortion".

All of this is entirely contrary to what you guys have been telling us for the last 13 years about these spherical models.

But how big are these flat maps? The crucial difference between flat maps and spherical maps is that for large distances, distortions emerge and they start predicting different angles and different distances.

If Earth is flat, why are these small flat maps handled individually as local maps? Why are they not stitched together into one large map?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: markjo on December 07, 2018, 07:04:21 PM
Markjo, whatever justification you want to give it, they are taking data from flat maps. I don't see how it can be successfully argued that the earth is round, but flat maps are used because they "minimize distortion".
No Tom, they're taking data from an ellipsoidal reference model and projecting it to make flat maps because flat maps are easier to work with than ellipsoidal ones.  I'm not sure how much more plainly the sources that you cite can say that.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: iamcpc on December 11, 2018, 09:22:26 PM
Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.

Is this serious? There are planes, trains, cars, horses, motorcycles and the link who can navigate hundreds and thousands of square miles on this planet.

I believe, from personal experience, this can be done using a map. Please don't take my word for it. Take a road trip across America.

What tools do you believe are making this possible?

Traditional flat map making methods are making it possible. See the following article:



There is zero budget to map the world.

This suggests that no one, experienced in cartography, gets paid to map the earth.

Perhaps you can show us the thread where we all sat down and mapped out the world.

This suggests that you are unable to find a map of the earth.

There is no Flat Earth Map. We don't know where any discrepancies might show on such a map. There are monopole and bi-polar models, with a near infinite number of continental map configurations.

This suggests that you have looked for a map and there is none.



Now you are claiming that we are able to navigate using a map. Which is it? Is there a map or not?

If there is a map why have you claimed on many different threads that there is no map?

If you believe that there are flat map making techniques that we are able to use to navigate. How can you claim that there are a virtually limitless number of continental configurations? Don't these flat map making methods exclude maps which have Asia sharing borders with America?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 11, 2018, 09:54:51 PM
I have not attempted to piece together the smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work to try and find the configuration of the bigger map. As far as I am aware, it has never been attempted.

Looking for the Flat Earth map is not one of my projects at present time. If you want to make that your goal to dig into these maps and associated assumptions, go ahead. This forum is for your participation.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 12, 2018, 06:29:07 AM
I have not attempted to piece together the smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work to try and find the configuration of the bigger map. As far as I am aware, it has never been attempted.

Looking for the Flat Earth map is not one of my projects at present time. If you want to make that your goal to dig into these maps and associated assumptions, go ahead. This forum is for your participation.

As we have all gone over many times and has been shown many times, there is no such thing as a flat earth map. And there are no such things as smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work. What you refer to as "smaller flat earth maps" are, again, for the thousandth time, based on a spherical ellipsoidal model of earth. AKA, a Globe.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: iamcpc on December 12, 2018, 05:03:50 PM
I have not attempted to piece together the smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work to try and find the configuration of the bigger map. As far as I am aware, it has never been attempted.

Looking for the Flat Earth map is not one of my projects at present time. If you want to make that your goal to dig into these maps and associated assumptions, go ahead. This forum is for your participation.

We can use maps to travel from Kansas to Alaska
then use that exact same map to travel from Alaska to Brazil
then use that exact same map to travel to and from all the continents and countries on earth.

It seems to me like someone has pieced together one full map of locations of all of the countries on earth. Do you disagree?
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 12, 2018, 05:33:48 PM
As we have all gone over many times and has been shown many times, there is no such thing as a flat earth map. And there are no such things as smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work. What you refer to as "smaller flat earth maps" are, again, for the thousandth time, based on a spherical ellipsoidal model of earth. AKA, a Globe.

Those flat maps have an x-y coordinate system. They are literally flat maps from the standard practice of plane surveying.

I have not attempted to piece together the smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work to try and find the configuration of the bigger map. As far as I am aware, it has never been attempted.

Looking for the Flat Earth map is not one of my projects at present time. If you want to make that your goal to dig into these maps and associated assumptions, go ahead. This forum is for your participation.

We can use maps to travel from Kansas to Alaska
then use that exact same map to travel from Alaska to Brazil
then use that exact same map to travel to and from all the continents and countries on earth.

It seems to me like someone has pieced together one full map of locations of all of the countries on earth. Do you disagree?

I don't agree that all way-points are available. Not only is it based on flat maps, some of the coordinate transformations are actually classified by government.

http://desktop.arcgis.com/en/arcmap/latest/map/projections/choosing-an-appropriate-transformation.htm

Quote
Why are there so many transformations?

Between any two geographic coordinate systems, there may be zero, one, or many transformations. Some geographic coordinate systems do not have any publicly known transformations because that information is considered to have strategic importance to a government or company.

This is something that needs to be looked into at depth, not assumed or hand waved away with an ego of knowledge.

Why are some transformations classified and hidden from public? Which ones? The curious mind is burdened to find the answer.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 12, 2018, 07:13:00 PM
As we have all gone over many times and has been shown many times, there is no such thing as a flat earth map. And there are no such things as smaller flat earth maps that are being used for navigation and GIS work. What you refer to as "smaller flat earth maps" are, again, for the thousandth time, based on a spherical ellipsoidal model of earth. AKA, a Globe.

Those flat maps have an x-y coordinate system. They are literally flat maps from the standard practice of plane surveying.

Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:

"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System

And the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.

You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: RonJ on December 12, 2018, 07:42:19 PM
A flat map depicting a flat earth would seem to me to be a rather straight forward process.  Of course the huge problem would be in getting any map to match the actual landscape especially South of the equator.  The flat earth folks could prove their model by just taking a small section of Australia and mapping it to flat earth standards.  Then anyone could compare that map to the actual land.  If everything matches up, like it does with a globe earth map, then the FET folks could say 'See it works'.  With the globe earth mapping system you can give me a couple of lat-long coordinates between two points and I can calculate the distance.  Then I can travel between those two points and my travel distance will match what the map says.     
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 12, 2018, 08:45:48 PM
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:

"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System

Is that statement based on theory or experiment?

Quote
And the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.

You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.

I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 12, 2018, 08:53:10 PM
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:

"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System

Is that statement based on theory or experiment?

Quote
And the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.

You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.

I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.

Among other reasons, "Most state plane zones are based on either a transverse Mercator projection or a Lambert conformal conic projection."

The operative word is "projection".

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Usgs_map_traverse_mercator.PNG)

Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: iamcpc on December 12, 2018, 10:39:18 PM

I don't agree that all way-points are available.


Why? We have passports and travel agencies. I can travel to hundreds of countries right now.

What travel way-point (or points) do you think are unavaiable?

some of the coordinate transformations are actually classified by government.

If i'm able to fly to and from hundreds of countries how could those coordinate systems be classified?


Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: inquisitive on December 12, 2018, 11:17:54 PM
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:

"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System

Is that statement based on theory or experiment?

Quote
And the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.

You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.

I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.
To repeat it is projections, a well established  process. See how lines of latitude and longitude appear on a (flat) map.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 12, 2018, 11:22:05 PM
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:

"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System

Is that statement based on theory or experiment?

Quote
And the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.

You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.

I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.

Among other reasons, "Most state plane zones are based on either a transverse Mercator projection or a Lambert conformal conic projection."

The operative word is "projection".

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Usgs_map_traverse_mercator.PNG)

That flat map looks something like the maps we are proposing with the northern or southern centers.

You are saying that the state plane maps are illustrated on a small part of that flat map, or alternatively another type of flat map? And that the whole map is called a "projection" because we live on a globe? I truly do not see how this trivia helps the meat of your argument in any way.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: stack on December 12, 2018, 11:43:38 PM
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:

"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System

Is that statement based on theory or experiment?

Quote
And the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.

You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.

I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.

Among other reasons, "Most state plane zones are based on either a transverse Mercator projection or a Lambert conformal conic projection."

The operative word is "projection".

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Usgs_map_traverse_mercator.PNG)

That flat map looks something like the maps we are proposing with the northern or southern centers.

Not really. You're bipolar depiction is the Lambert Globe Projection. This is a version of Mercator Traverse Globe Projection. Again, projected from a Globe. I don't know any other way to put it.

You are saying that the state plane maps are illustrated on a small part of that map, or alternatively another type of flat map? And that the whole thing is called a "projection" because we live on a globe? I don't see how this helps your argument in any way.

"State Plane Coordinate System (SPCS)

SPCS is a system of large-scale conformal map projections originally created in the 1930s to support surveying, engineering, and mapping activities throughout the U.S. and its territories. As a reminder, a map projection is a systematic transformation of the latitudes and longitudes of locations on the surface of a sphere or ellipsoid representing the Earth to grid coordinates (x, y or easting, northing values) on a plane."

https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/SPCS/index.shtml

Again, I don't know how many different ways to phrase it, these maps are derived from a Globe model.

Here's the US carved up by the smaller State Plane maps:

(https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/SPCS/images/spcs83_conus_final.png)

Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: necronomicon on December 13, 2018, 05:33:06 AM
What many flat earthers in these comments seem to be doing is failing to differentiate between a projection of a spherical earth onto a flat 2 dimensional surface and A FLAT 2 DIMENSIONAL SURFACE! The flat earth map would be a map of a flat 2 dimensional surface, whereas the mercator projection would be a projection of the 3d spherical earth onto a flat 2 dimensional surface.

Take the Flat Earth Map on the FE wiki. It is literally an azimuthal equidistant projection of the 3d spherical earth. It is the map that the UN uses for their logo, and flat earthers seemed to have taken it for their own. If you interpret this map as being a projection of the 3d spherical earth (an azimuthal equidistant one), then you realize that the areas further away from the north pole are increasingly distorted in size and shape, and then if you try to calculate quantities such as surface areas of countries you can correct for this distortion mathematically and arrive at the correct answer that we observe in reality.

If however you treat this map as an actual literal map of a flat earth (that is, an x to 1 linear projection of the flat earth, where x is the scale factor which linearly relates distances on your map to distances on the flat earth such that 1 unit of length on your map corresponds to X units of length on the flat earth), then if you try to go and calculate surface areas of countries you have no reason to try to correct for distortion, since there is no distortion in a one to one map, a special feature of a map of a flat surface. You will therefore find that your answers are totally off.

I find it sort of funny that flat earthers use a literal projection of the spherical earth as their map, one used by the UN on their logo no doubt.
Title: Re: Is there a Flat-Earth map I can use to actually navigate from A to B to C?
Post by: Spingo on December 14, 2018, 09:21:56 AM
Ummm, pretty much all maps are flat for ease of use/transport. And, as we've gone over this before, as to X-Y coordinate system:

"By using the Cartesian coordinate system's simple XY coordinates, "plane surveying" methods can be used, speeding up and simplifying calculations. Second, the system is highly accurate within each zone (error less than 1:10,000). Outside a specific state plane zone accuracy rapidly declines, thus the system is not useful for regional or national mapping."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Plane_Coordinate_System

Is that statement based on theory or experiment?

Quote
And the reason why their accuracy rapidly declines when made larger is that they are "projections", as from a Globe, which introduces distortion.

You keep trying to use State Plane maps as some sort of evidence for "flat earth maps" when, as stated above and before, many times, they are, in fact, derived from a Globe.

I don't see how it is possible to argue that the maps are flat, but they are based on a globe.

Among other reasons, "Most state plane zones are based on either a transverse Mercator projection or a Lambert conformal conic projection."

The operative word is "projection".

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Usgs_map_traverse_mercator.PNG)

That flat map looks something like the maps we are proposing with the northern or southern centers.

You are saying that the state plane maps are illustrated on a small part of that flat map, or alternatively another type of flat map? And that the whole map is called a "projection" because we live on a globe? I truly do not see how this trivia helps the meat of your argument in any way.

Tom you need to go check your really helpful link again;
https://gis.utah.gov (https://gis.utah.gov)

It’s a really interesting look at how the state of Utah goes about producing highly accurate maps.
It illustrates  quite a few things;
How complex producing accurate maps are
Where they acquire their data sets from
How impossible it would be for an individual to produce a map on their own without using pre-established data sets.
How ludicrous the idea of producing a flat earth map is
How tricky it is producing accurate convenient flat maps of an area that is part of a curved surface.