Offline Earthman

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Globe believers have an established curvature chart for an Earth with a 3959 Mile radius.  It dictates how much curvature there should be over land and water.
Are there any Globe believers here who can calculate how much curvature should be over Australia using their own charts?  And can they also prove Australia does in fact have the curvature as dictated by comparing it to the actual surface shape, and show us how they came to that conclusion?

Applying the Earth curvature Chart to our Earth’s landmass is a simple and easy way to prove right here and now if Earth is indeed a ball.  The debate would be over.

Can they do it?  Let see.


Australia is roughly 2400 miles in width.  Hamelin Pool, Shark Bay Western Australia to Sunshine Coast, Australia is 2406 miles. See picture below.

How much curvature should Australia have? How much does it really have? How did you come to this conclusion? Please include all methods.

We will be waiting…

Thanks in advance,
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 11:23:05 PM by Earthman »
If early astronomers could see what we see today, they would scoff at the thought of a Globe Earth.  Increased knowledge with technology has not been good for the RE community, nor is it on their side.

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Offline junker

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Re: Can Globies prove Earth has curvature by their own Curvature Charts?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 11:03:16 PM »
Lay off the antagonizing terms for the RE folks. Warned.
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You're doing God's work, junker.

HorstFue

Australia is roughly 2400 miles in width.  Hamelin Pool, Shark Bay Western Australia to Sunshine Coast, Australia is 2406 miles.
Where did you get this distance from?
Think about it, maybe this will answer your questions.

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Offline stack

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Globe believers have an established curvature chart for an Earth with a 3959 Mile radius.  It dictates how much curvature there should be over land and water.
Are there any Globe believers here who can calculate how much curvature should be over Australia using their own charts?  And can they also prove Australia does in fact have the curvature as dictated and show us how they came to that conclusion?

Applying the Earth curvature Chart to our Earth’s landmass is a simple and easy way to prove right here and now if Earth is indeed a ball.  The debate would be over.

Can they do it?  Let see.


Australia is roughly 2400 miles in width.  Hamelin Pool, Shark Bay Western Australia to Sunshine Coast, Australia is 2406 miles. See picture below.

How much curvature should Australia have? How much does it really have? How did you come to this conclusion? Please include all methods.

We will be waiting…

Thanks in advance,

I'd be more than willing to respond, but I don't think this is right forum. How about posing this in Theory or Investigation?

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Offline RonJ

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Yes, when I go to sea all our charts are based upon the earth being a globe.  We can travel halfway around the earth with no street signs or direction posts anywhere and arrive at our destination each and every time.  When I'm on land then I use flat earth charts.  I don't get lost there either, but I can usually follow road and street signs.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Offline Earthman

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Australia is roughly 2400 miles in width.  Hamelin Pool, Shark Bay Western Australia to Sunshine Coast, Australia is 2406 miles.
Where did you get this distance from?
Think about it, maybe this will answer your questions.

The information came from an online distance calculator for a Globe Earth. 

« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 03:05:00 AM by Earthman »
If early astronomers could see what we see today, they would scoff at the thought of a Globe Earth.  Increased knowledge with technology has not been good for the RE community, nor is it on their side.

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Offline RonJ

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You have about 35 degrees of the globe, that means that you would need a tower of about 190-191 miles at each side of Australia to have a clear line of sight between the towers (assuming no buildings or mountains near the center of curvature) .  The horizon would be about 17 to 18 degrees below level. The tops of the towers would be about 2868 miles away from each other  All my calculations are classified (RE) calculations, access limited.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Offline Earthman

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Are there others here who would like to chime in with actually proof Australia’s landmass does indeed match the established curvature charts for a Earth with a 3959 mile radius?
If early astronomers could see what we see today, they would scoff at the thought of a Globe Earth.  Increased knowledge with technology has not been good for the RE community, nor is it on their side.

Offline Earthman

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You have about 35 degrees of the globe, that means that you would need a tower of about 190-191 miles at each side of Australia to have a clear line of sight between the towers (assuming no buildings or mountains near the center of curvature) .  The horizon would be about 17 to 18 degrees below level. The tops of the towers would be about 2868 miles away from each other  All my calculations are classified (RE) calculations, access limited.

Thanks for your input.

If early astronomers could see what we see today, they would scoff at the thought of a Globe Earth.  Increased knowledge with technology has not been good for the RE community, nor is it on their side.

HorstFue

Australia is roughly 2400 miles in width.  Hamelin Pool, Shark Bay Western Australia to Sunshine Coast, Australia is 2406 miles.
Where did you get this distance from?
Think about it, maybe this will answer your questions.

The information came from an online distance calculator for a Globe Earth.
The Globe earth distance calculator showed also a route between these two points.
Is it straight line or an arc? That's the projected view from above.
More interesting would be the "side view": Is this a straight line or an arc?
What is the hight of points part of this arc/line above mean sea level?

More:
What is the definition in a Globe Earth model of: "vertical" (Hint: plumb line), "horizontal" and "level"?
What are the plumb lines at the start and end point? Are those plumb lines parallel?
What are the "horizontal" planes at the start and end point? Are those planes parallel or even the same?
What is "mean sea level" on a globe? A plane or is it curved?

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Offline RonJ

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The biggest problem with doing anything with a globe earth is that you are essentially working in 3 dimensions.  Any flat earth calculations are easy because it's all on a flat plane.  Spherical calculations require more math.  I was bit by that fact years ago when I started learning celestial navigation.  At that time I didn't have anything on spherical trigonometry but was able to borrow a math text book that had a section on that subject.  It takes a while for everything to make some sense.  I don't blame the flat earth advocates.  Their ideas make things easier.  Unfortunately, if we tried doing basic trigonometry while working out navigation problems at sea King Neptune would have gotten us a long time ago.  Any flat earth advocates want to meet the King?   
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline rabinoz

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Are there others here who would like to chime in with actually proof Australia’s landmass does indeed match the established curvature charts for a Earth with a 3959 mile radius?
You show how you derived your "curvature" first thank you!

Offline Earthman

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Australia is roughly 2400 miles in width.  Hamelin Pool, Shark Bay Western Australia to Sunshine Coast, Australia is 2406 miles.
Where did you get this distance from?
Think about it, maybe this will answer your questions.

The information came from an online distance calculator for a Globe Earth.
The Globe earth distance calculator showed also a route between these two points.
Is it straight line or an arc? That's the projected view from above.
More interesting would be the "side view": Is this a straight line or an arc?
What is the hight of points part of this arc/line above mean sea level?

More:
What is the definition in a Globe Earth model of: "vertical" (Hint: plumb line), "horizontal" and "level"?
What are the plumb lines at the start and end point? Are those plumb lines parallel?
What are the "horizontal" planes at the start and end point? Are those planes parallel or even the same?
What is "mean sea level" on a globe? A plane or is it curved?

How you chose to come up with the facts to prove Australia has spherical curvature as dictated is not my concern. I just want to see the facts and see us how you came to that conclusion.
I believe this a valid and simple question and the task is not complicated.
If early astronomers could see what we see today, they would scoff at the thought of a Globe Earth.  Increased knowledge with technology has not been good for the RE community, nor is it on their side.

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Offline RonJ

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I went from Coral Bay 23-08-34S / 113-46-05E to the Point Cartwright Light house near Buddina 26-40-46S / 153-08-18E.  The total great circle distance was about 2470 miles with the midpoint at about 26-15-16S / 133-09-33E.  The starting and ending points are near sea level, give or take what the tides might be.  All three points (start, end, center) are all relatively close to the same distance from the earths center at 3959 miles away, give or take the topography of the land near the center.  If you draw a straight line thru the earths diameter circle between the starting point and ending point it will be at about 191 miles below the center position.  To do it another way, if you constructed towers at the starting and ending points and drew a straight line between the towers (each 194 miles high) the line would just graze the surface of the earth near the center point.  The towers had to be just a bit taller because they would have to be at an angle of a little less than 18 degrees relative to the vertical at the center.  However both towers would be perfectly vertical and pointing toward the earths center at each end. All the calculations are classified, believe them if you dare.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline stack

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I went from Coral Bay 23-08-34S / 113-46-05E to the Point Cartwright Light house near Buddina 26-40-46S / 153-08-18E.  The total great circle distance was about 2470 miles with the midpoint at about 26-15-16S / 133-09-33E.  The starting and ending points are near sea level, give or take what the tides might be.  All three points (start, end, center) are all relatively close to the same distance from the earths center at 3959 miles away, give or take the topography of the land near the center.  If you draw a straight line thru the earths diameter circle between the starting point and ending point it will be at about 191 miles below the center position.  To do it another way, if you constructed towers at the starting and ending points and drew a straight line between the towers (each 194 miles high) the line would just graze the surface of the earth near the center point.  The towers had to be just a bit taller because they would have to be at an angle of a little less than 18 degrees relative to the vertical at the center.  However both towers would be perfectly vertical and pointing toward the earths center at each end. All the calculations are classified, believe them if you dare.

So visually, something like this:


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Offline RonJ

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Yes, the diagram is essentially what my 'back of the envelope' calculations shows.  The math seems to be correct.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Offline Earthman

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I went from Coral Bay 23-08-34S / 113-46-05E to the Point Cartwright Light house near Buddina 26-40-46S / 153-08-18E.  The total great circle distance was about 2470 miles with the midpoint at about 26-15-16S / 133-09-33E.  The starting and ending points are near sea level, give or take what the tides might be.  All three points (start, end, center) are all relatively close to the same distance from the earths center at 3959 miles away, give or take the topography of the land near the center.  If you draw a straight line thru the earths diameter circle between the starting point and ending point it will be at about 191 miles below the center position.  To do it another way, if you constructed towers at the starting and ending points and drew a straight line between the towers (each 194 miles high) the line would just graze the surface of the earth near the center point.  The towers had to be just a bit taller because they would have to be at an angle of a little less than 18 degrees relative to the vertical at the center.  However both towers would be perfectly vertical and pointing toward the earths center at each end. All the calculations are classified, believe them if you dare.

So visually, something like this:



Can you prove Australia does have the 191 miles of curvature (at center) by comparing it to the actual surface shape of Australia, and show us how you came to that conclusion?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 11:48:26 PM by Earthman »
If early astronomers could see what we see today, they would scoff at the thought of a Globe Earth.  Increased knowledge with technology has not been good for the RE community, nor is it on their side.

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Offline RonJ

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To test what vertical actually is, consider a thought experiment.  You all know about the leaning tower of Pisa in Italy.  Location is at 43-43-23N and 10-23-43E.   Assume that it leans by 4 degrees to the South (180 degrees).  Now assume that you could hire an alien contractor who had an anti-gravity machine that could pick the leaning tower up an move it.  During the moving process the tower would remain pointing in an absolute fixed direction in space.  Could the tower be moved to another location that would be perfectly vertical on the earth?   
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

HorstFue

Another approach: The Sun
Assuming Sun rays are parallel all over the globe, lets see how high the Sun is above the horizon (local horizontal plane) --> the elevation  value at timeanddate.com
seen at the start and end point.
I found Shark Bay
and
Sunshine Coast

I take Dec/22/2018 - solstice day, as the Sun's path is nearest to these two points.
I take Shark Bay local time 08:55h, as Sun's azimuth then is 99°, which fits with the Great Circle course to Sunshine Coast.
99° would be the direction you have to look, to see (theoretical, it's much to far)  Sunshine Coast from Shark Bay.
Sunshine Coast local time is then 10:55h according time zones.

Sun Data at Dec/22/2018 08:55h Shark Bay local Time:
Shark Bay (08:55h): Azi. 99°  Elevation 43°
Sunshine Coast (10:55h): Azi. 78°   Elevation 78°

The difference in elevation of the Sun at the same time is 35°
That's what the local horizontal planes at Shark Bay and Sunshine Coast are tilted against each other.
So starting at Shark Bay you would have to curve down for 35° on your way to Sunshine Coast, which also is the result in RonJ's calculations.

Offline Earthman

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I am not looking for assumptions or thought experiments. I am looking for detailed facts that prove Australia has the curvature.   

The sum of 194 miles of curvature has been posted.

Can you prove Australia does have the 191 miles of curvature (at center) by comparing it to the actual surface shape of Australia, and show us how you came to that conclusion?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 11:47:15 PM by Earthman »
If early astronomers could see what we see today, they would scoff at the thought of a Globe Earth.  Increased knowledge with technology has not been good for the RE community, nor is it on their side.