Justice 4 MattyWS
« on: November 07, 2018, 04:19:25 PM »
Out of interest, what was wrong with this post that it warranted a ban? It was part of a conversation between him and Thork, I note Thork has not been censured (not should he have been). What rules does this break?

Deniers are deniers, regardless of what it is they deny. To say you're being lumped in with people who deny different things as inaccurate is like saying you're not the same species are black or asian people because you're white, you're still human thus still 'lumped in' with other races in that regard. Not that I'm claiming racism or anything, just a simile.

And IMO flat earthers are definitely deniers. So far from what I've seen on these forums is flat out denying and ignoring evidence and proof they can't refute, and yet unable to explain fully why they think the world is flat as a matter of fact.

I'll grant you one thing though, the use of the logo on his badge was likely not allowed assuming this site has any claim over the licencing of the logo (I wouldn't know for sure myself).

Alright, well I guess the warnings didn't have an impact. Have a few days off to review the rules.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 04:32:19 PM »
He has been warned repeatedly to keep his angsty whining about FE/FErs in the appropriate forum. He refuses to adapt after being warned multiple times about the behavior, and I was going to give the ban on this post https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=10879.msg171999#msg171999 anyway since he has no respect for how the forum operates and just posts what he wants wherever he feels like it. He isn't a useful or contributing member.

Someone else can review, but I have no interest in continuing to give him additional chances.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2018, 04:53:28 PM »
I can't speak about his overall behaviour but I'm still not sure what rule you think he's broken here.
Thork was complaining about a BBC video about FE - not just FE but it mentioned FE along with some other things.
MattyWS simply responded in a way which I don't think would have seen more established RE posters get a warning.
Maybe he does need to be beaten into shape but I'm surprised that this was the straw which broke the camel's back, I honestly can't see anything wrong with it.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 05:19:47 PM »
For what it is worth if I thought it either derailed my thread, was off topic or needlessly abusive, I'd have reported it. As it was I just rolled my eyes and answered it and the following post. As the OP, it didn't bother me at all.

Sure, it's noob angst but at 37 posts you'd kind of expect that.  ???

Could have just stripped it out to CN but I don't even think it was that bad. The odd misplaced comment here and there isn't going to worry anyone. At worst it gets ignored. Its only when someone ruins a thread for others that other users want action. We don't need everybody walking on egg shells.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 08:35:13 PM »
This poster has provided little value and is not a contributing member. I will not shed a tear over the loss of his presence from these forums.

Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2018, 09:15:14 PM »
This poster has provided little value and is not a contributing member. I will not shed a tear over the loss of his presence from these forums.
Why, because he's saying things you disagree with?
And even if that is so, that doesn't address the issue of what was wrong with that post which warranted a short ban.
What rules did it breach?
I don't think you personally finding him irritating is a good enough reason for a ban.

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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2018, 09:37:22 PM »
What rules did it breach?


Deniers are deniers, regardless of what it is they deny. To say you're being lumped in with people who deny different things as inaccurate is like saying you're not the same species are black or asian people because you're white, you're still human thus still 'lumped in' with other races in that regard. Not that I'm claiming racism or anything, just a simile.
R3/R6

And IMO flat earthers are definitely deniers. So far from what I've seen on these forums is flat out denying and ignoring evidence and proof they can't refute, and yet unable to explain fully why they think the world is flat as a matter of fact.
R3/R6 again...

I'll grant you one thing though, the use of the logo on his badge was likely not allowed assuming this site has any claim over the licencing of the logo (I wouldn't know for sure myself).
This seems to be the only bit that was actually related to the topic.


We get it, he doesn't like or agree with FET/FErs. There is no need to bring it up in nearly every topic you post in, especially when it isn't related to the topic at hand. It has nothing to do with saying things that aren't agreed with, or if he is irritating. Again, it is a repeated pattern of behavior that he was given ample opportunities to correct. Also again, if it wasn't for this post, there was another rule-breaking post he was going to get a vacation for, since he has been warned repeatedly.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 10:43:24 PM »
Rule 3 says "Stay on topic"
Rule 6 says "Avoid including material which does not contribute to the point you are making"

The topic was "BBC slags of TFES again" and Thork said
Quote
Maybe Pete Svarrior would like to Tweet the BBC and ask them why they used our logo in their hit piece on and lumped us in with not only climate change deniers but also holocaust deniers!

The actual video was not about TFES, it was about deniers of various things and flat earthers were mentioned as an example. The two paragraphs you've quoted as being in breach of those rules are entirely related to why Matty felt it valid that the BBC did that, it's a completely valid response to Thork's post and the BBC video he referenced. You may disagree with what he's saying, but it was entirely on topic.

It might well be that, overall, he has earned his short ban. But for that post? I'm not buying that.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2018, 11:00:52 PM »
The actual video was not about TFES, it was about deniers of various things and flat earthers were mentioned as an example. The two paragraphs you've quoted as being in breach of those rules are entirely related to why Matty felt it valid that the BBC did that, it's a completely valid response to Thork's post and the BBC video he referenced. You may disagree with what he's saying, but it was entirely on topic.

No, it is not a "completely valid response." It is the Flat Earth Media forum, which isn't the place for debating why you agree or disagree with FET. The premise of the topic is how the BBC used the logo without credit.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 07:03:15 AM »
Thork says 2 things in the part of the post I quoted, the logo and why the BBC lumped you in with other deniers. Matty addresses both those things and only those things in his reply.

Would other mods or admin care to comment?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 08:02:24 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 08:26:43 AM »
Thork says 2 things in the part of the post I quoted, the logo and why the BBC lumped you in with other deniers. Matty addresses both those things and only those things in his reply.

And again, it isn't the purpose of the FE Media forum to debate or have in-depth discussions trying to counter the OP. There is a stickied post in FE Media that literally says how to use that forum. Other users may not get a warning immediately, but since Matty has shown no regard for respecting how the upper fora are supposed to be used, he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2018, 08:29:11 AM »
I see junker's point. The post was nothing short of a ramble about how he dislikes FE'ers, and if he didn't get banned for this post, he'd be getting banned minutes later for something else.

I think the only issue here is that we don't really ban people for single posts - we ban people for bad posting *patterns*. By phrasing it as the former, the discussion unduly focuses on whether or not the right post was chosen as the ban justification. I say the post is irrelevant, and Matty has had plenty of opportunities to adjust his posting style. Perhaps some negative reinforcement will help.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2018, 08:42:27 AM »
It WAS a ramble about how he dislikes FE but it was also a completely relevant ramble in reply to Thork's post. It does not break the rules junker has cited.
I do think the point about the Media board not being the place for debate is more valid although you let that slide with other posters (me being one of them at times).
And the fact that junker is having to scrabble around for a reason and keeps changing that reason is telling.
The point about posting patterns is also valid, I just think this post was a bad example of a pattern you want to change.

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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2018, 08:52:05 AM »
It does not break the rules junker has cited.
Yes, it does.


And the fact that junker is having to scrabble around for a reason and keeps changing that reason is telling.
The reason hasn't changed. I am not sure what is hard to understand about that. I suppose I assumed you knew how the upper fora worked prior to making a post in S&C. The reason for the warning/ban is still the exact same as my initial reply, where I outlined it was a recurring issue. Just because you refuse to accept it doesn't change anything, I just did you the courtesy of going in-depth regarding all of the ways the post was inappropriate. It is obvious you have no interest in being convinced or changing your opinion, so I won't waste more time on the topic after this post.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2018, 10:36:16 AM »
It does not break the rules junker has cited.
Yes, it does.
How so? Matty's comments are entirely a response to what Thork posted.
It was completely on topic.
He didn't include material which did not contribute to the point he was making.
You have simply stated without elaboration that his post was against those 2 rules, I have explained why I can't see how it was.
So please elaborate.
The fact that you then said the Media forum is not for that purpose IS a different reason
A more valid one actually - if anything that breaks Rule 5.

There may well be a recurring issue with this poster, but this post was not an example of it.
It seems to me you banned him because you don't like him. And I'm somewhat concerned to see Pete say that the post itself doesn't matter.
I'd agree that the person posting does influence modding decisions, you might give some users more latitude because you know they're basically posting in line with the culture of the forum. But that doesn't mean that a poster who you have some issues with should be banned for a perfectly legitimate post.

I'd be interested to hear Rushy or Parsifal's views.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2018, 01:27:45 PM »
Again: nobody gets banned "for a post". Your insistence on trying to paint it that way is unhelpful to your understanding of what happened here.

It WAS a ramble about how he dislikes FE but it was also a completely relevant ramble in reply to Thork's post.
Just because it was a reply to something doesn't mean it was on-topic, or that it belonged to the board. If you want to rant angrily about FE'ers, well, I think you can guess where the place to do that is.

Review Matty's post history. He's repeatedly guilty of posting AR tripe in the upper. Your fixation on a single post is entirely unfounded, since the single post is not the reason behind the ban.

This is obvious. This is something you know. I've talked to you, specifically, about how the balance of content is king here. This is all stuff you know and understand. So, please, stop pretending that the single post matters. It doesn't.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 01:31:34 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2018, 01:38:50 PM »
It was completely on topic.
It actually wasn't.

He didn't include material which did not contribute to the point he was making.
Yes, he did. It seems like you haven't actually read what was posted.

It seems to me you banned him because you don't like him.
And that is a baseless opinion.

But that doesn't mean that a poster who you have some issues with should be banned for a perfectly legitimate post.
I agree. Good thing that didn't happen here.


I know I said I wasn't going to waste any more time on this, but I am starting to think you are either being intentionally disingenuous, or trolling at this point. You have already conceded that it was an anti-FE rant. You just happen to think it was an on-topic or appropriate rant. I disagree with that, based on the user's previous pattern of behavior where they frequently inject rants into their posts. You have two saying mods essentially the same thing, yet somehow you are looking for 100% consensus from all mods/admins. I imagine you still won't be satisfied no matter how many people tell you the same thing, you are just looking for someone to agree with you.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2018, 03:13:20 PM »
I'm interested in what the other mods say because I think you and Pete are both too trigger happy, so Pete agreeing with you doesn't add anything for me.
Pete said it was a ramble, not a rant and I agreed with that. I don't think it was a rant and I agree with what he said. It seemed like a perfectly valid response to Thork's post.

I'm not trolling, I just genuinely don't see what is wrong with the post and all we're doing now is going.

You "It was off topic"
Me: "No it wasn't, he responded to what Thork said"
You: "Didn't"
Me: "Did"
You: "Didn't".

So I don't think we're going to get much further. It's a shame more people didn't express an opinion but whatever, I've had my say.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2018, 03:56:11 PM »
Pete said it was a ramble
My apologies, I didn't realize we were nitpicking semantics.


I'm not trolling, I just genuinely don't see what is wrong with the post and all we're doing now is going.

You "It was off topic"
Me: "No it wasn't, he responded to what Thork said"
You: "Didn't"
Me: "Did"
You: "Didn't".

So I don't think we're going to get much further. It's a shame more people didn't express an opinion but whatever, I've had my say.
If that is how it sits in your head, so be it. No need to try to convince you otherwise when you just ignore everything except the parts to choose to believe.
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Re: Justice 4 MattyWS
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2018, 04:45:42 PM »
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this thread is nothing short of a cheap troll. I'm going to lock it now.

AATW, you know how this place works. Ignoring most of what I said and claiming to agree with me is not going to help your case. You were told three times now that this specific post is not the thing to focus on (because that's not how bans work here - and you know this), and yet you keep rambling on about it. If you want to talk about things that aren't relevant to Matty's ban (and, consequently, S&C), we have 2 perfectly good boards for that.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 04:48:16 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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