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Offline markjo

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2018, 11:52:36 PM »
Although Job tells us that the earth is over a void, other passages state that the earth is on a foundation. This appears to conflict.
This is one of the reasons why I personally don't like using the Bible as evidence for the shape of the earth either way.  As a book of faith, such contradictions don't really matter.  However, such contradictions are not desirable in a book of science.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2018, 12:12:19 AM »
Although Job tells us that the earth is over a void, other passages state that the earth is on a foundation. This appears to conflict.
This is one of the reasons why I personally don't like using the Bible as evidence for the shape of the earth either way.  As a book of faith, such contradictions don't really matter.  However, such contradictions are not desirable in a book of science.

The passages I quoted suggest that it is not a contradiction. The Corinthians passages comes from a section called "Christ Our Foundation." The foundation appears to be God, or the hand of God. The foundation is, apparently, not a plane or object that the earth rests on. The earth exists over a void, just as stated in Job.

I have looked for other descriptions of the foundation, and that is all that could be found. An eternal plane or cosmic body is not described.

If we want to talk about a literal interpretation of the bible, we should take it all literally, not some. Long ago the Round Earth geocentrists chose their own selected quotes, which the wider Flat Earth community has accepted. However, those RE geocentrists don't like passages of the earth shaking, passages of the earth falling, the earth rising, being hung, or God dividing the waters vertically to make the expanse. Not only do they put the earth into motion, they suggest that the earth is flat. So they were ignored. They were ignored, just as all of the other Flat Earth passages, not discussed here, which suggest a Flat Earth were ignored. When the bible is looked at as a whole, we see that those immovable quotes do not add up.

One would practically have to argue that the earth is immovable to God Himself as to make such an absolutist declaration. And it is difficult to see how this is maintainable.

The Flat Earth community should see that there was a lot of bias in the selection of those quotes. Unlike the geocentrists, who basically ignore half of the bible to get their immobile Round Earth, not once have I ignored a quote I that came across in researching this matter. And that should not be too much to ask of the Flat Earth community, or any student of the bible, that they should research for themselves.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 05:39:34 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2018, 12:56:48 AM »
The foundations of the earth, which we had read were fixtures that keep the earth from wobbling, are shaken by God in His judgment of man's rebellion, completely destroying the earth.
I could be wrong, but I would think that the earth having a foundation would preclude it from accelerating upwards.

Although Job tells us that the earth is over a void, other passages state that the earth is on a foundation. This appears to conflict. What is the foundation? How can the earth both be over a void and on a foundation? The most explicit description of the foundation is found in Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 3:11: "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

It says directly above that the foundation is Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 48:13 tells us: "Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together."

Isaiah tells us that God founded the earth with His left hand, and the heavens are spread with His right hand, and that when He calls to them (presumably His hands), they stand together. This reads as verification of what the foundation is.

I think you have your work cut out for you. For example, in your interpretation of scripture you find no contradiction in your reasoning. Yet another, for example, Skiba, interprets the same passage differently and finds no contradiction in his reasoning. Yet yours and his contradict each other. And never the twain shall meet.

In a Skiba document, "The Bible and the Still Flat Earth", (http://www.testingtheglobe.com/PDFs/The_Bible_and_the_Still_Flat_Earth.pdf) he writes,

"What about seeming contradictions such as:

Job 9:6
who shakes the earth from its place, and its pillars tremble.
Psalms 104:5
Thou didst set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be shaken.
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Isaiah 24:18
He who flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and he who climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.

Those are just a few examples of this nature. There are others, which clearly show the earth being knocked around in various ways. I think there is a difference between YHWH being able to shake, rattle and roll the  earth  at  His  pleasure  or  in  His  anger  and  the  earth  being removed  altogether from  its  pillared foundation, so personally, I see no contradiction here. It appears to me that YHWH has set this place up to be permanent, and though He may knock it around from time to time, its still not going to leave its firmly  established  foundation.  Yes,  earthquakes  and  catastrophe  are  permissible,  but  utter  destruction will never come."

I'm not arguing one side of the other. Scriptural interpretation is just such a hard row to sow.

If you haven't already, you might want to check out the Skiba/Sungenis Biblical Cosmology debate from the conference. I'm only 20 minutes into it, but interesting so far.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2018, 02:20:33 AM »
Who knows? Perhaps these interpretations have not been fully considered.

What is the foundation? God or the hand of God. What are pillars? Things in the Bible that often move vertically and are non-solid.

Some of the ancient holy books even make extensive use of invisible pillars that move the celestial bodies up and down. I'll collect a few more examples of these things and send it out to some of them.

My interest is not to debate them at all, only to bring it to attention and ask them whether this is possible.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 02:37:44 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2018, 03:01:49 AM »
Who knows? Perhaps these interpretations have not been fully considered.

What is the foundation? God or the hand of God. What are pillars? Things in the Bible that often move vertically and are non-solid.

Some of the ancient holy books even make extensive use of invisible pillars that move the celestial bodies up and down. I'll collect a few more examples of these things and send it out to some of them.

My interest is not to debate them at all, only to bring it to attention and ask them whether this is possible.

I agree, it's not a debate. And your attitude is best in that considerations can be brought to be examined. I definitely think you can amass interpretation that allows for movement.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2018, 11:41:34 AM »
Interestingly, despite the fame and the insistance, the words "motionless," "stationary," and "immovable," appear nowhere in the bible in regards to the earth.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com searches across over 30 different versions/translations of the bible.

Motionless - 4 instances, unrelated to earth

Stationary - 1 instance, unrelated to earth

Immovable - 7 instances, unrelated to earth

...

The New American Standard Bible

The NASB is touted by scholarship as the most literal. From the NASB Wikipedia page: "The New American Standard Bible is considered by some sources as the most literally translated of major 20th-century English Bible translations."

0 NASB references for "stationary"

1 unrelated NASB reference for "motionless"

The relevant "immovable" quotes from the New American Standard Bible:

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Psalm 93:1 NASB

The Lord reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The Lord has clothed and girded Himself with strength;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

Psalm 96:10 NASB

Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved;
He will judge the peoples with equity.”

1 Chronicles 16:30 NASB

Tremble before Him, all the earth;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved

Psalm 104:5 NASB

He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.

All four of these quotes seem to be saying the same thing about its establishment, the last one the most specific. This is all that I could find when cross-correlating from the standard "the earth is immovable" scripture lists of passages that speak of immobility. All are talking about its establishment, with one being more specific about the matter of movement than others.

The NASB does not use the word "immovable" for the earth anywhere in its pages. There are three unrelated references for "immovable" in the NASB. Nor could any other related references be found for "not moved" or "not moving" or "still".

The ancients certainly knew the words for "motionless" and "immovable," as they use them in other areas of the bible, but it is not used for the earth.

The earth being established so that it will not totter, does not equal motionless, stationary or immovable. Those were words attributed and popularized by a geocentrist somewhere. The earth being fixed in establishment so that it will not move from it (which seems to be clarified as totter) also does not directly equal 'is not moving' or 'can not move'. Especially when we look up what the foundation is.

When assessing these passages one sees that it does not appear to literally say that at all. We also see that the ancients certainly could have specifically said motionless if they wanted to. There was language available to specifically declare the earth as motionless or still. Those words appear in other areas, of other things. In the case of "still," a great many times. They could have said it, but did not.

And, even if we ignore all else, which we shouldn't, and focus on four words, "will not be moved," with no other context at all, as the geocentrists have us selectively interpret; Will not be moved to what and to whom? Whatever that answer, it is certainly not something which would apply as a limit to God and His will for the world. For God is the Almighty, and also, there are numerous instances of God moving the earth.

I am collecting items to submit and will be curious to see whether this interpretation is possible at all.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 10:25:12 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2018, 03:22:23 PM »
The fundamental problem is you’re using Scripture to assess scientific ideas. If anything it should be the other way around, scientific ideas can help us understand Scripture in a different way. I don’t believe the days of Genesis are literal 24 hour days because science has shown pretty conclusively that the earth is much older than 6,000 years. I don’t see this as a problem simply because I don’t believe the Bible is trying to teach me scientific ideas. It contains much deeper truths. Scripture can be true without being scientifically accurate.

“The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go”
- Gallileo
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2018, 01:53:05 AM »
We are discussing literal interpretation of the bible. What does the bible say and describe? Is the earth in motion? It seems to me that the earth is rising upwards in the bible.

Let us read Joshua's Farewell Address from the NASB:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+23&version=NASB

Quote
Joshua’s Farewell Address

Now it came about after many days, when the Lord had given rest to Israel from all their enemies on every side, and Joshua was old, advanced in years, that Joshua called for all Israel, for their elders and their heads and their judges and their officers, and said to them, “I am old, advanced in years. And you have seen all that the Lord your God has done to all these nations because of you, for the Lord your God is He who has been fighting for you. See, I have apportioned to you these nations which remain as an inheritance for your tribes, with all the nations which I have cut off, from the Jordan even to the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun..."

"Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed."

Joshua is a major figure in the book of Exodus, and an associate of Moses. Joshua was appointed by God to succeed Moses as leader of the Israelites, and has a book in scripture. The Book of Joshua is a book of the Bible. In this passage Joshua is very old and is giving his farewell address. Joshua tells us that today he will be going the way of all the earth. For Joshua, presumably that way is up, not down, and definitely not around the sun. A statement which, when taken literally, tells us that the earth is going the way of somewhere; that the earth is rising upwards.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 06:52:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2018, 02:05:58 AM »
"Go the way of all earth" is a Hebrew idiom meaning "to die."

Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2018, 08:25:58 AM »
We are discussing literal interpretation of the bible. What does the bible say and describe? Is the earth in motion? It seems to me that the earth is rising upwards in the bible.
And I am asking why you are doing that.
What makes you think that Scripture is intended to or trying to teach us scientific truths?

You can interpret certain verses in different ways and your confirmation bias is making you interpret them in ways which fit your world view. But, again, Scripture should not be anyone’s go to place to learn about science. Some of the language is clearly poetic and it’s teaching us deeper truths about why we are here, Who created us and what for.

This is a different thread so I’ll start that separately
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2018, 06:35:38 PM »
"Go the way of all earth" is a Hebrew idiom meaning "to die."

You are right. The phrase is found elsewhere in the bible of another good and righteous figure who was going to die. King David also says it in 1 Kings 2:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings+2&version=NASB

Quote
David’s Charge to Solomon

As David’s time to die drew near, he charged Solomon his son, saying, “I am going the way of all the earth. Be strong, therefore, and show yourself a man. Keep the charge of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to what is written in the Law of Moses, that you may succeed in all that you do and wherever you turn, so that the Lord may carry out His promise which He spoke concerning me, saying, ‘If your sons are careful of their way, to walk before Me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, you shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’

I do find it interesting that a group of people who believed that they were going to heaven when they died, and who wrote the bible through God, would say that they were "going the way of all of the earth" when they died. The bible says that language is a gift to man by God (Tower of Babel), which was a gift given to a period closer to Joshua than to today.

And I am asking why you are doing that.
What makes you think that Scripture is intended to or trying to teach us scientific truths?

The ancients who wrote the bible did hold that they were transcribing scientific truth. Why would they write a bunch of things which suggest that the earth is flat if they believed that the earth was round? Why would God tell us lies or false things, if they held that it was the word of God?

Our previous knowledge of the world is important for a number of reasons. Some hold, as Rowbotham did, that this previous science was never legitimately replaced. This matter is not even an argument of whether the spiritual nature is true or not. What does our previous science say about the earth? What did we believe before? That should be of interest to all people, religious or not.

Quote
You can interpret certain verses in different ways and your confirmation bias is making you interpret them in ways which fit your world view.

Whose interpretation am I supposed to give if not my own? I had read the bible, long before I ever thought of a Flat Earth, and the motionless earth never really jumped out at me. Is it possible that I am entirely wrong? Sure.

If passages show that there are a bunch of things that say or suggest that the earth can move, or is moving, then that evidence just needs to be collected and compiled for further assessment and consideration. We have only been looking at this for a little while and already it's a good start.

Other biblical scholars (non-geocentric RE'ers) do believe that the bible allows for movement. It is not as if I am alone in that matter.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 01:19:58 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2018, 12:30:08 AM »
I would like to return to the creation and the expanse:

https://www.biblica.com/bible/nasb/genesis/1/

Quote
The Creation

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so.

Day 1: God creates the heavens and the earth. The earth is water and devoid of land.

Day 2: God divides the waters vertically and creates the expanse.

Day 3: God says "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"

Reading this literally, from the most literal version of the bible, God created the expanse below the earth that we are on, not above it.

In the FE vs Geocentrism debate that Stack had posted, at one point, Robert Sungenis quotes a scholar who says (paraphrased) “God created something on the Second Day. We just don’t know what it is.”
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 03:07:11 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2018, 12:51:07 AM »
The audience for your argument, Tom, is other bible fundamentalists who adhere to a flat earth because of their interpretation of the bible. What I'd be interested in following is a debate amongst that crowd about the biblical pros and cons of UA.

You're making an argument, Tom, but I don't detect anyone from that target audience providing counterpoint. REers playing "devil's advocate" isn't the same.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2018, 03:53:35 AM »
King James Bible
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Me thinks you have it wrong. The North is the center part of the dome, highest point, where God lives just above in heaven.  This is the gathering of the largest constellations and the empty place is describing the sky below the dome down to ground level. Not easy to get to the high dome. Dome is connected at the edges of the earth and hangs upon nothing. Call it a construction miracle.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2018, 04:01:23 AM »
King James Bible
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Psalm 104:5

Call it what you must, immobile, fixed, ain't going no where baby and certainly not spinning on an axis of evil flying thru space at how ever many thousands of miles an hour.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2018, 04:06:48 AM »
Don't confuse earthquakes, which is one of God's wake the F... up calls as the earth moving from it's place on da pillars. We ain't going no where.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2018, 04:37:43 AM »
The foundations of the earth, which we had read were fixtures that keep the earth from wobbling, are shaken by God in His judgment of man's rebellion, completely destroying the earth.
I could be wrong, but I would think that the earth having a foundation would preclude it from accelerating upwards.

Although Job tells us that the earth is over a void, other passages state that the earth is on a foundation. This appears to conflict. What is the foundation? How can the earth both be over a void and on a foundation? The most explicit description of the foundation is found in Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 3:11: "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

It says directly above that the foundation is Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 48:13 tells us: "Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together."

Isaiah tells us that God founded the earth with His left hand, and the heavens are spread with His right hand, and that when He calls to them (presumably His hands), they stand together. This reads as verification of what the foundation is.

I think you have your work cut out for you. For example, in your interpretation of scripture you find no contradiction in your reasoning. Yet another, for example, Skiba, interprets the same passage differently and finds no contradiction in his reasoning. Yet yours and his contradict each other. And never the twain shall meet.

In a Skiba document, "The Bible and the Still Flat Earth", (http://www.testingtheglobe.com/PDFs/The_Bible_and_the_Still_Flat_Earth.pdf) he writes,

"What about seeming contradictions such as:

Job 9:6
who shakes the earth from its place, and its pillars tremble.
Psalms 104:5
Thou didst set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be shaken.
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Isaiah 24:18
He who flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and he who climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.

Those are just a few examples of this nature. There are others, which clearly show the earth being knocked around in various ways. I think there is a difference between YHWH being able to shake, rattle and roll the  earth  at  His  pleasure  or  in  His  anger  and  the  earth  being removed  altogether from  its  pillared foundation, so personally, I see no contradiction here. It appears to me that YHWH has set this place up to be permanent, and though He may knock it around from time to time, its still not going to leave its firmly  established  foundation.  Yes,  earthquakes  and  catastrophe  are  permissible,  but  utter  destruction will never come."

I'm not arguing one side of the other. Scriptural interpretation is just such a hard row to sow.

If you haven't already, you might want to check out the Skiba/Sungenis Biblical Cosmology debate from the conference. I'm only 20 minutes into it, but interesting so far.



Rob Skiba is a true man of God and nails the Flat Earth through biblical writings. I've heard most his arguments so I didn't listened to the entire, but he is always on point and anyone wanting to find truth through scripture should watch his videos.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline stack

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2018, 08:46:38 AM »
J-Man, I think you’re the best person around these parts to speak of the stationary FE view and how it may coincide or contradict some of the Societies views regarding UA.

Secondly, it took me a few days, but I finally got through the 2 hour debate. Some quick observations.

90 minutes+ of the debate seemed to center around the Hebrew meaning of the words ‘bet’ and ‘raqia’. Whether ‘bet’ means ‘in’ or ‘inside’ the ‘ raqia’ (firmament/dome) and ‘raqia’ meaning firm/unbreakable or that AND flexible/expanse. Literally, that was 3/4 of this. If it takes a couple of hours to cover just two words in the Bible between two scholars who share a stationary world view, I can’t even conceive how a UA model gets into the mix. Interested to find out though.

At 1:49:40 Skiba mentions what to him is an untenable contradiction, "To try and marry scripture to secular science and this is the danger of going outside the written word of God for truth.”

Here in I think lies the issue. What I gather from a Skiba perspective and from the wider FE community going all the way back to Rowbotham, it’s about scriptural literalism and not just scriptural interpretation. What I mean is, there is no wiggle room. The book is the book, and it informs us of what we need to know. No other references are necessary. And for the literalist, there is no interpretation as such. None is needed, because all you need do is read the word of god. My point is, that unless you are a scriptural literalist as described and scripture is the only reference point for your view of the shape of the earth and how it works, there is no need for a conversation, let alone an attempt to impart a theory that marries scripture to secular science.

Lastly, Skiba threw a slide up showing his view of the stationary flat earth and references a bunch of chapters. Thought it my be a good reference to go through and see what all those verses refer to:


Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2018, 01:18:50 PM »
The ancients who wrote the bible did hold that they were transcribing scientific truth.
Did they? What is your basis for that claim? Timothy tells us what Scripture is for and it isn't for teaching us scientific truth:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Quote
Why would they write a bunch of things which suggest that the earth is flat if they believed that the earth was round? Why would God tell us lies or false things? The truth is that they didn't believe that.

You are interpreting those verses that way, millions of Christians more versed in science like myself do not. Mostly because of our understanding of science.
It isn't Scripture's aim or intention to tell me what the shape of the earth is, or how big the sun is or how far away it is or how old the universe is.
Genesis tells me I'm a creation. It tells me Who I was created by and what I was created for. And it tells me of our rebellion and need for salvation, God's rescue plan is dealt with in the rest of the Bible.
That's what Scripture is about, it should not be your go to place for learning about science.

It's not about God "telling us false things" it's about looking at what Scripture is trying to teach us.
This verse is often used as a basis for flat earth belief:

Isaiah 40:22
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

"Aha!", say the flat earth Bible literalists. See? Circle! But I'd suggest the language is poetic and the subsequent verses, 23 and 24, show that:

Isaiah 40:23-23
"He brings princes to naught and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing. No sooner are they planted, no sooner are they sown, no sooner do they take root in the ground, than he blows on them and they wither, and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff."

Planted? Sown? Take root in the ground? A whirlwind sweeps them away? Does that literally happen?
Come on, dude, this passage is clearly talking about God's sovereignty and power, it's not trying to teach me science or the shape of the earth.
Although, if you were looking down at the earth from above then it would indeed look like a circle - that is true whether the earth is a 2D circle or a 3D globe.

Quote
What does our previous science say about the earth? What did we believe before? That should be of interest to all people, religious or not.

I actually agree on this point. As discussed, scripture is not "our previous science", that is not what it's for. But there is previous science elsewhere.
There was the ancient idea that everything was made out of 4 elements

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The ancient Greeks believed that there were four elements that everything was made up of: earth, water, air, and fire. This theory was suggested around 450 BC, and it was later supported and added to by Aristotle. (Aristotle also suggested that there was a fifth element, aether, because it seemed strange that the stars would be made out of earthly elements...
The idea that these four elements – earth, water, air, and fire – made up all matter was the cornerstone of philosophy, science, and medicine for two thousand years. The elements were “pure” but could not be found in that state on earth. Every visible thing was made up of some combination of earth, water, air, and fire. The four elements were even used to described the four temperaments a person could have, and Hippocrates used the four elements to describe the four “humors” found in the body. These theories stated that the temperaments and humors needed to be in balance with each other in order for a person to be well both mentally and physically. While we do know now that these previous theories are false, in a way the four elements do align with the four states of matter that modern science has agreed on: solid (earth), liquid (water), gas (air), and plasma (fire).

https://learning-center.homesciencetools.com/article/four-elements-science/

That is interesting. But it doesn't have any veracity. Just because an idea is old that doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it wrong either but a lot of ancient beliefs have been superseded.
Yes, if you were living thousands of years ago you probably would believe that the earth was flat and that the sun went round it (as in over it in the day and under it at night). You'd probably think that when it was night it was night everywhere and when it was day it was day everywhere. With your local perspective that would be a reasonable belief. But we don't have that local perspective any more. We have timezones and global travel and communication and spaceflight.

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Whose interpretation am I supposed to give if not my own?
Well sure. I'm just suggesting that your enquiries into learning about the shape of the earth should not involve the Bible. I don't think that is an important truth which God is trying to tell us through Scripture.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 01:31:13 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE Conference Denver
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2018, 04:06:44 PM »
The Pillars

I see mention of the pillars of the earth. Lets talk about the pillars. In the bible there are two types of pillars: Man’s pillars and God’s pillars. There is a difference. Man’s pillars are always made of solid substances such as stone, wood, or rock. God is above utilizing the materials of man for his pillars, however. God’s pillars are always made of cloud, fire, or nothing. God’s pillars are always in motion through space, move up and down, and have a purpose of moving or lifting. They are not static pillars like those of man.

Here is a link to the search term pillars from the NASB with 140 results. Readers may feel free to read about them for their own selves.

Man's Pillars

God's Instructions to Moses from Exodus 27:17

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All the pillars around the court shall be furnished with silver bands with their hooks of silver and their sockets of bronze.

Genesis 28:18

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So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top.

Exodus 34:13

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But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim

Judges 16:25

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It so happened when they were in high spirits, that they said, “Call for Samson, that he may amuse us.” So they called for Samson from the prison, and he entertained them. And they made him stand between the pillars.

Judges 16:26

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Then Samson said to the boy who was holding his hand, “Let me feel the pillars on which the house rests, that I may lean against them.”

1 Kings 7:2

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He built the house of the forest of Lebanon; its length was 100 cubits and its width 50 cubits and its height 30 cubits, on four rows of cedar pillars with cedar beams on the pillars.

Man’s pillars are solid and static.

God’s Pillars

Exodus 13:21

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The Lord was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way, and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night.

Exodus 14:24

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At the morning watch, the Lord looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud and brought the army of the Egyptians into confusion.

Exodus 14:19

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The angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them.

Exodus 33:9

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Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the Lord would speak with Moses.

Numbers 12:5

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Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the doorway of the tent, and He called Aaron and Miriam. When they had both come forward,

We can see the nature of God's pillars.

Both heaven and the earth are on pillars:

Job 26:11

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The pillars of heaven tremble And are amazed at His rebuke.

1 Samuel 2:8

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For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, And He set the world on them.

Now, would God be using man’s pillars for the above, or God’s pillars? Clearly, these type of pillars would have to be be God’s pillars. Not man’s pillars. God’s pillars are not solid, and move around through space for a purpose. The purpose of God’s pillars is not to be static like stone. God always purposes His pillars to move, lift, or to do something.

In light of the above, man's pillars seem out of the question. The question should be what God's pillars are doing.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 09:12:50 PM by Tom Bishop »