Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2018, 09:21:46 AM »
Truth is simple, not complicated.
There speaks a man who hasn't read up on Relativity or Quantum Theory :)
But in this case, it is pretty simple. On a flat plane a smaller object can only obscure a more distant, bigger object if your eye level is below the height of the smaller object.
Otherwise you are looking over the bigger object and will be able to see the distant one.
I have provided diagrams and photos which demonstrate this.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2018, 06:29:44 PM »
Anyway, I have shown that the Flat earth can explain why the building is covered.
It is difficult to get the exact figures.
Visual phenomena are influenced by many factors.
That's the reality.

I disagree strongly. Did you not look at my diagrams? The observer is standing 10 feet above sea level. The building that is being obscured is 10 feet above sea level. In both the horizon at eye level model and the flat horizon model there is not a situation where a 3 foot wave can obscure these things like you have claimed when both the observer and the obscured object are above sea level.

Can you help me understand by drawing a diagram of an observer 10 feet above sea level and a wave blocking the vision of something far away 10 feet above sea level?

Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2018, 04:44:07 AM »
Anyway, I have shown that the Flat earth can explain why the building is covered.
It is difficult to get the exact figures.
Visual phenomena are influenced by many factors.
That's the reality.

I disagree strongly. Did you not look at my diagrams? The observer is standing 10 feet above sea level. The building that is being obscured is 10 feet above sea level. In both the horizon at eye level model and the flat horizon model there is not a situation where a 3 foot wave can obscure these things like you have claimed when both the observer and the obscured object are above sea level.

Can you help me understand by drawing a diagram of an observer 10 feet above sea level and a wave blocking the vision of something far away 10 feet above sea level?

I can help you.
Don't forget that you are an observer.
Now you are seeing it in the eyes of a third party, not as an observer.

The sea rises at an eye level to the observer's eye.
But the sea never rise at an eye level to the third party's eye.

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Offline stack

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2018, 06:54:37 AM »
I can help you.
Don't forget that you are an observer.
Now you are seeing it in the eyes of a third party, not as an observer.

The sea rises at an eye level to the observer's eye.
But the sea never rise at an eye level to the third party's eye.

Yes, I am the observer.
Now I'm seeing through the eyes of a third party, standing off to my right? With a side view?
The sea rises up to my eye, the observer, not the other me, the one off to my right, but the sea doesn't rise to his eye, I mean my eye, the other me, the third party's eye.

All that aside, quite simply, show how your model explains this:

Example A: 3.7m wave required
Example F2: 17.6m wave required



For reference, here's what waves look like:

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2018, 03:57:19 PM »

I can help you.
Don't forget that you are an observer.
Now you are seeing it in the eyes of a third party, not as an observer.

The sea rises at an eye level to the observer's eye.
But the sea never rise at an eye level to the third party's eye.

I don't understand. a person is standing 10 feet above sea level and sees far building which is also 10 feet above sea level.

The bottom part of that building is obscured to the person. Even if the horizon rises to the level of person it seems that a  3 foot wave would not block the view of the building.


Could you correct my diagram?


Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2018, 05:22:53 AM »

I can help you.
Don't forget that you are an observer.
Now you are seeing it in the eyes of a third party, not as an observer.

The sea rises at an eye level to the observer's eye.
But the sea never rise at an eye level to the third party's eye.

I don't understand. a person is standing 10 feet above sea level and sees far building which is also 10 feet above sea level.

The bottom part of that building is obscured to the person. Even if the horizon rises to the level of person it seems that a  3 foot wave would not block the view of the building.


Could you correct my diagram?


If the distance is short, you are right.
But if the distance is long, horizon is up to the eye level in your diagram.
and then, Add the waves to the horizon.

Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2018, 07:57:28 AM »
If the distance is short, you are right.
But if the distance is long, horizon is up to the eye level in your diagram.
and then, Add the waves to the horizon.
Can you please show a diagram? I'm still not understanding how the 1m wave, even if that wave was at your eye level, would block the 100m building just behind it.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2018, 03:21:58 PM »
This is zorbakim's image:


But that's not reality. That triangle representing a 1m wave on the (flat earth) horizon is at eye level to a 1m high eye. It never rises above eye level to obscure anything more than 1m behind it...unless the earth curves and "dips" away. But if the earth is flat, that diagram is false.

Here, a model of flat earth shows that a 1m object can never obscure a more distant 100m object from a viewpoint of 1m, no matter where you place them.


And here is a real life example of 1m ocean swells not obscuring 100m of an object well beyond the 1m view horizon:


Those are two zetetic refutations of a rationalized -- a flawed one at that -- argument for how something can happen that doesn't. It's fanciful thinking, like this nonsense.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2018, 03:26:20 PM »
If the distance is short, you are right.
But if the distance is long, horizon is up to the eye level in your diagram.
and then, Add the waves to the horizon.
Can you please show a diagram? I'm still not understanding how the 1m wave, even if that wave was at your eye level, would block the 100m building just behind it.

In the diagram below someone is floating in the ocean and a wave comes crashing toward them. This wave could obscure an entire building if it was close enough to the eye. (much like cell phone when close enough to  my eyes can obscure an elephant)


The problem is that this does not apply to literally ANY of Bobby's observations because none of them were made while he was floating in the ocean.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 03:27:54 PM by iamcpc »

Offline JCM

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2018, 10:42:36 PM »
If the distance is short, you are right.
But if the distance is long, horizon is up to the eye level in your diagram.
and then, Add the waves to the horizon.
Can you please show a diagram? I'm still not understanding how the 1m wave, even if that wave was at your eye level, would block the 100m building just behind it.

In the diagram below someone is floating in the ocean and a wave comes crashing toward them. This wave could obscure an entire building if it was close enough to the eye. (much like cell phone when close enough to  my eyes can obscure an elephant)


The problem is that this does not apply to literally ANY of Bobby's observations because none of them were made while he was floating in the ocean.


Exactly...  that diagram is possible and shows how a large object can be blocked by a smaller wave IF your face is below the wave.    It is common sense.  Why a wave below your line of sight could ever block more then the height of the wave on an object behind it.... ever...  makes no sense at all.   

Offline iamcpc

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2018, 11:54:17 PM »
Exactly...  that diagram is possible and shows how a large object can be blocked by a smaller wave IF your face is below the wave.    It is common sense.  Why a wave below your line of sight could ever block more then the height of the wave on an object behind it.... ever...  makes no sense at all.

Well there is the claim that horizon is always at eye level or always rises to eye level. Which is where the original claim was made.


So if the horizon rises to eye level and the observer and the building are both at sea level  then this is what i imagine. Even putting both the observer and the building at sea level, and raising the horizon to eye level it still does not add up to me.

Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2018, 02:19:00 PM »
Imagine a complete flat plane.
The flat plane  almost rises up to eye level in the distant.
But there are no obstacles on the flat plane, so it doesn't cover the building.
However, there are many kinds of waves in the sea.
wind wave, swell, tide etc.
These serve as obstacles on the flat sea.
So they can cover the building.

Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2018, 02:21:11 PM »
Imagine a complete flat plane.
The flat plane  almost rises up to eye level in the distant.
But there are no obstacles on the flat plane, so it doesn't cover the building.
However, there are many kinds of waves in the sea.
wind wave, swell, tide etc.
These serve as obstacles on the flat sea.
So they can cover the building.
Can you please provide a diagram showing how the light rays from the top of a 100m building are blocked by 1m waves when the observer's eye level is above 1m.
I honestly can't picture what you're trying to describe.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2018, 02:49:43 PM »
Imagine a complete flat plane.
The flat plane  almost rises up to eye level in the distant.
But there are no obstacles on the flat plane, so it doesn't cover the building.
However, there are many kinds of waves in the sea.
wind wave, swell, tide etc.
These serve as obstacles on the flat sea.
So they can cover the building.
If your eye level is at the same level of something else, that something else will never block line of sight to yet something else that's above eye level as long all those somethings reside on a flat plane. Never. Doesn't matter where you place them. You need light to bend upward or the surface to curve down (convex) in order for a 1m "wave" to obscure anything above 1m when viewed from a height of 1m.





Offline iamcpc

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2018, 04:37:41 PM »
Can you please show a diagram? I'm still not understanding how the 1m wave, even if that wave was at your eye level, would block the 100m building just behind it.

I'm pretty sure I got this figured out. The first premise is that the horizon is always at eye level. I'm going to operate under the assumption that he is adhering to the claim that the horizon always rises to eye level. The horizon rises to eye level the, at the point where the horizon has reached eye level there is a lone wave which is capable of obscuring more of the building than the height of the wave..



Here's an example (with observer and building both at sea level) with a wave on the horizon with the horizon rising to eye level with the building far beyond the horizon.

This helps me understand the original post but still baffles me as to what is happening when Bobby has documented this when both the camera/eye and the building are many feet above sea level.






One thing I noticed is that, even with no wave, part of the building is obscured. Leading me to believe that if something other than optics/environmental things were to blame for part of the building being obscured it would be the horizon and not waves.




Bobby,

This is something that you might be interested in. Inside of the claim that the horizon always raises to eye level who's to say that "raising to eye level" is linear.


« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 04:51:30 PM by iamcpc »

Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2018, 02:23:43 PM »
Imagine a complete flat plane.
The flat plane  almost rises up to eye level in the distant.
But there are no obstacles on the flat plane, so it doesn't cover the building.
However, there are many kinds of waves in the sea.
wind wave, swell, tide etc.
These serve as obstacles on the flat sea.
So they can cover the building.
If your eye level is at the same level of something else, that something else will never block line of sight to yet something else that's above eye level as long all those somethings reside on a flat plane. Never. Doesn't matter where you place them. You need light to bend upward or the surface to curve down (convex) in order for a 1m "wave" to obscure anything above 1m when viewed from a height of 1m.



That video is different from the ocean situation.
The sea is not an ideal plane.

Imagine an ideal flat plane.
The plane rises to an eye level at a distance.
Imagine adding waves to that.
It's not the same, but the sea is a similar situation.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 02:25:44 PM by zorbakim »

Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2018, 03:01:30 PM »
Imagine an ideal flat plane.
The plane rises to an eye level at a distance.
Imagine adding waves to that.
It's not the same, but the sea is a similar situation.
OK. So first, a plane does not rise to eye level at a distance
You will always be looking down at an angle because no matter how far you can see, the angle theta in this diagram is not 0



Only at infinity would the angle be zero. Secondly, is the situation you're talking about the one shown in iamcpc's diagram?



If so then you have a problem. Even if the 1m wave did rise above your eye line then it will do so at a very shallow angle.
If the building was twice as far as the horizon then because of similar triangles the wave would only obscure 2m of it.
If that diagram is not what you mean then if you could supply one then it would help us all understand your ideas.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 03:03:06 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #77 on: October 29, 2018, 03:06:04 PM »
Only at infinity would the angle be zero.

Who proved this infinity? Claiming that an infinity exists in something without evidence sounds like a pretty stupid claim to me. Much like an unsubstantiated claim promoting the existence of ghosts. Totally undetected and unobserved.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2018, 03:36:17 PM »
That video is different from the ocean situation.
The sea is not an ideal plane.

Imagine an ideal flat plane.
The plane rises to an eye level at a distance.
Imagine adding waves to that.
It's not the same, but the sea is a similar situation.
No. The smaller 1m obstacle is the wave. If your eye is at 1m and the wave top is at 1m, it can never be above eye level unless you lower your eye. The wave/obstacle top doesn't rise above eye level as it is moved into the distance. You can't "add the wave" to the eye level horizon. It doesn't work. Even another acclaimed FEer said:

"Find an obstacle of a known height, set it a distance away, and then set the height of your [eye] to the height of the top of the obstacle. [Your eye], object, and horizon should make a straight line. The further the objects are located from each other, the better. The horizon should line up with to top of the object..."

The 1m wave is the obstacle of known height. If the height of your eye is 1m, then the horizon is along the straight line formed by your eye and the top of the wave. If the wave is on the horizon, then it's merged into the vanishing point of the horizon. It's not "added to the horizon." For that to happen, the wave would have to defy the so-called Natural Laws of Perspective.


Re: 1m Waves block 100m building
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2018, 03:36:28 PM »
Claiming that an infinity exists in something without evidence sounds like a pretty stupid claim to me.
Not as stupid as claiming that parallel lines meet at a finite distance as you are effectively doing
Hint: look up the definition of parallel.
Note: I mean actually meet, not "appear to".
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.