Offline iamcpc

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Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2018, 10:29:20 PM »
Look this video got sent to me the other day and i am no expert on video stuff, so like i figure they are using ropes and stuff, but like i said, i am not confident in my argument on how they faked this... only that they DID!

Anyone whos interested take a look, I probably missed something, god be with ye all


I really don't know. I would say green screen/CGI but the problem that I run into is that there are videos like this from 1990 before CGI and modern video editing technology. If CGI/video editing explains this what explains videos like this from way before CGI:


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Offline stack

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Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2018, 10:48:53 PM »
Look this video got sent to me the other day and i am no expert on video stuff, so like i figure they are using ropes and stuff, but like i said, i am not confident in my argument on how they faked this... only that they DID!

Anyone whos interested take a look, I probably missed something, god be with ye all


I really don't know. I would say green screen/CGI but the problem that I run into is that there are videos like this from 1990 before CGI and modern video editing technology. If CGI/video editing explains this what explains videos like this from way before CGI:



Some pretty amazing CGI was developed for cinema back in the 90's (See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_computer_animation_in_film_and_television#1990s).

However, even when we watch the hours of footage, some live and some not, of space stuff today, let alone in the 90's, for it to be CGI, the computing power to do so is currently unimaginable. A believable 10 second shot today in a movie of, let's say, an astronaut and maybe some other stuff floating around, takes a server farm and days to render. 10 seconds, days! Let alone the $, artists involved. Like I've said before, it's actually more technologically feasible, cheaper and easier to put some people in space than it is to fake it.

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2018, 10:29:20 AM »
You can spot the ISS by eye using a telescope, it's up there orbiting. That is a fact. You can see it, you can track it. So yes, it is generally accepted to be a fact that it's up there under zero gravity because it is.
Oh, my apologies.../sarcasm

The video does not show the ISS orbiting, does it?

The video content is related to events supposedly taking place in the ISS.
That isn't argumentum ad populum, that would be something like saying cracking your knuckles gives you arthritis because that's what your grandparents told your parents who told you (it doesn't give you arthritis, thats a myth for another time) or that milk makes your bones strong (it doesn't).
You can protest all you like and you can offer whatever spin you choose to offer; however...

You offered argumentum ad populum and it is that simple.

MattyWS

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2018, 01:17:30 PM »
You can spot the ISS by eye using a telescope, it's up there orbiting. That is a fact. You can see it, you can track it. So yes, it is generally accepted to be a fact that it's up there under zero gravity because it is.
Oh, my apologies.../sarcasm

The video does not show the ISS orbiting, does it?

The video content is related to events supposedly taking place in the ISS.
That isn't argumentum ad populum, that would be something like saying cracking your knuckles gives you arthritis because that's what your grandparents told your parents who told you (it doesn't give you arthritis, thats a myth for another time) or that milk makes your bones strong (it doesn't).
You can protest all you like and you can offer whatever spin you choose to offer; however...

You offered argumentum ad populum and it is that simple.
Not at all, the evidence that the ISS exists is absolute, so why wouldn't there be people in the ISS? if the ISS is up there orbiting  why wouldn't the people in the ISS be floating as well? You can literally see that it exists, there's no need for NASA or anyone else to make a fake video to try tricking everyone into believing it when we can literally see it for ourselves with our own eyes.

So let me ask you, with all of the evidence clearly stacked in favour of the video being real, what actual evidence do any of you here have that it's fake other than cop out answers like "CGI" or "strings holding the people up but we can't see". Give solid proof the ISS isn't up there, floating above us with people on board. You can't, because there is none.

Shouting "FAKE" doesn't make something fake, ignoring all the solid evidence and proof doesn't make it fake. Your argument is idiotic. I've seen the ISS myself, you can see it for yourself. heck soon you can even go on commercial flights into space where you can feel for yourself the lack of gravity.

https://www.virgingalactic.com/research/

And no, saying you cant afford it is not a reason for it to be fake.

I'm not in any way saying "it must be real, everyone else thinks it is!" I'm saying it's real because we can all see the obvious proof that it is.

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2018, 01:58:16 PM »
I don't think it's incumbent on anyone to prove that videos are real IF the video is of something which is generally agreed to be real.
So if I took some film of a car going along a road I don't think I should have to go out of my way to prove it isn't faked.
We all accept that roads are a thing and that cars go along them.
If the car was a DeLorean and when it got to 88mph it disappeared in a trail of flames though then I think it would be up to me to show that was real and wasn't faked somehow because this is not a common experience.
Footage from the ISS is a bit of a grey area, not many people - compared with the population of earth - have been to the ISS. But space travel is generally accepted as a thing, footage from space from multiple countries has been widely available for decades, we are used to seeing footage of weightless astronauts in orbit, the ISS is visible from earth.
So, on balance, I think if people are going to call it fake then they're going to have to do better than just shout "fake" and run away.
All you get is vague assertions, I've not seen any solid analysis from an expert in this sort of thing claiming that these videos are fake.
And the people claiming they are fake do have an agenda - in order for FE to be a thing, the ISS can't be. But the only "evidence" I've heard for fakery are arguments from incredulity or vague assertions.
"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2018, 03:11:05 PM »
If you want, you can consult radioreference.com and they will clue you in on how to listen to the ISS on your own radio.  I did this many years ago and actually heard radio traffic from space myself.  Again, this is not proof.  The government could be up in airplanes with a radio from time to time and simulating a conversation with someone on the ground.  If my wife sent me out to get a loaf of bread at the local grocery store and I came back and told her that the store was out of bread, how could I 'prove' that I actually went out and looked and didn't just go to the local bar?  I can imagine that there were people at the dock when Columbus left on his trip who thought that he was just going to sail off the edge of the earth.  Time proved that the prediction wasn't true.  Now fast forward a couple hundred years.  Mankind is trying to cobble together the technology the leave the earth.  The most likely destination will be Mars.  People, again, are worried that the first space explorers will be 'sailing' off and will 'fall off the edge'.  Past history can't prove anything that will be happening in the future, but that's the way to bet.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2018, 03:40:21 PM »
You can spot the ISS by eye using a telescope, it's up there orbiting. That is a fact. You can see it, you can track it. So yes, it is generally accepted to be a fact that it's up there under zero gravity because it is.
Oh, my apologies.../sarcasm

The video does not show the ISS orbiting, does it?

The video content is related to events supposedly taking place in the ISS.
That isn't argumentum ad populum, that would be something like saying cracking your knuckles gives you arthritis because that's what your grandparents told your parents who told you (it doesn't give you arthritis, thats a myth for another time) or that milk makes your bones strong (it doesn't).
You can protest all you like and you can offer whatever spin you choose to offer; however...

You offered argumentum ad populum and it is that simple.
Not at all, the evidence that the ISS exists is absolute, so why wouldn't there be people in the ISS?
First, the evidence is simply not absolute.

B, you have never heard of unmanned vehicles operating overhead?
if the ISS is up there orbiting  why wouldn't the people in the ISS be floating as well? You can literally see that it exists, there's no need for NASA or anyone else to make a fake video to try tricking everyone into believing it when we can literally see it for ourselves with our own eyes.
No, you cannot see it with your own eyes...

At best, you need some sort of visual aid.
So let me ask you, with all of the evidence clearly stacked in favour of the video being real...
Wrong.
...what actual evidence do any of you here have that it's fake other than cop out answers like "CGI" or "strings holding the people up but we can't see". Give solid proof the ISS isn't up there, floating above us with people on board. You can't, because there is none.
Aside from conflating evidence with proof, the fact a video exists does not = proof the content of the video is real.

Simply issuing a statement the contents are real does not constitute evidence or proof the contents are real.
Shouting "FAKE" doesn't make something fake, ignoring all the solid evidence and proof doesn't make it fake.
Aside from no proof, I have not shouted anything.

Neither have I made an argument as to whether the contents are real or not.

All I have pointed out is the fallacy in your argumentation.
Your argument is idiotic.
Your argument is fallacious.
I've seen the ISS myself, you can see it for yourself. heck soon you can even go on commercial flights into space where you can feel for yourself the lack of gravity.

https://www.virgingalactic.com/research/
Yeah, right...
And no, saying you cant afford it is not a reason for it to be fake.
How about pointing out the clear fact that none of these flights for the discerning consumer has yet to take place, despite the ever present promises?
I'm not in any way saying "it must be real, everyone else thinks it is!" I'm saying it's real because we can all see the obvious proof that it is.
No...

You are claiming the video contents are a true depiction of events taking place in environment which you have no evidence actually exists, other than an appeal to numbers...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 12:49:45 PM by totallackey »

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2018, 03:42:47 PM »
I don't think it's incumbent on anyone to prove that videos are real IF the video is of something which is generally agreed to be real.
So if I took some film of a car going along a road I don't think I should have to go out of my way to prove it isn't faked.
We all accept that roads are a thing and that cars go along them.
If the car was a DeLorean and when it got to 88mph it disappeared in a trail of flames though then I think it would be up to me to show that was real and wasn't faked somehow because this is not a common experience.
Footage from the ISS is a bit of a grey area, not many people - compared with the population of earth - have been to the ISS. But space travel is generally accepted as a thing, footage from space from multiple countries has been widely available for decades, we are used to seeing footage of weightless astronauts in orbit, the ISS is visible from earth.
So, on balance, I think if people are going to call it fake then they're going to have to do better than just shout "fake" and run away.
All you get is vague assertions, I've not seen any solid analysis from an expert in this sort of thing claiming that these videos are fake.
And the people claiming they are fake do have an agenda - in order for FE to be a thing, the ISS can't be. But the only "evidence" I've heard for fakery are arguments from incredulity or vague assertions.
First, any particular video would need to be examined to determine veracity.

And that is what this thread is about...

One particular video.

B, whether or not the ISS exists has nothing to with the shape of the earth.

MattyWS

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2018, 03:53:05 PM »
"No, you cannot see it with your own eyes...

At best, you need some sort of visual aid."

Do yourself a favour and get a decent telescope or camera with a decent zoom. Anyone can do that. The ISS is visible with the naked eye and it can be tracked easily enough if you just go to an ISS tracking website, you can find where it's going to be, go there and look up.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-see-the-ISS-through-a-telescope

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2018, 04:40:21 PM »
The shape of the earth has everything to do with the ISS.  The whole idea of the ISS and all the videos that have been taken is mutually exclusive with FET.  If one thing is true, then the other has to be fake.  In theory the ISS could orbit a global earth and use the force of gravity just like all the equations say. The whole idea is simple and has been known for 100s of years. Since with FET there is no gravity on earth and we are all held here by the force of UA then two other options are possible.   An attempt to go around the edge could happen, since there is no dome.  To stay in an 'edge to edge' orbit you would have to have a continuous fuel burn since you have no pull of gravity.  Since the ISS can only carry a finite amount of fuel it would have a short expected life span.  The other option would be to stay in a circular path around the top of the flat earth, just like the sun and moon.  Again, 'Houston, we have a problem'.   That would mean in order for the ISS to stay above a flat earth in a circle, the rockets would have to be going continuously.  I guess you could repeal Newton's 2nd law, but I fear that you just wouldn't be able to fool 'Mother Nature'.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2018, 11:12:12 AM »
"No, you cannot see it with your own eyes...

At best, you need some sort of visual aid."

Do yourself a favour and get a decent telescope or camera with a decent zoom. Anyone can do that. The ISS is visible with the naked eye
No it isn't.
... and it can be tracked easily enough if you just go to an ISS tracking website, you can find where it's going to be, go there and look up.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-see-the-ISS-through-a-telescope
None of this has anything to do with the OP video.

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2018, 11:14:08 AM »
The shape of the earth has everything to do with the ISS.  The whole idea of the ISS and all the videos that have been taken is mutually exclusive with FET.  If one thing is true, then the other has to be fake.  In theory the ISS could orbit a global earth and use the force of gravity just like all the equations say. The whole idea is simple and has been known for 100s of years. Since with FET there is no gravity on earth and we are all held here by the force of UA then two other options are possible.   An attempt to go around the edge could happen, since there is no dome.  To stay in an 'edge to edge' orbit you would have to have a continuous fuel burn since you have no pull of gravity.  Since the ISS can only carry a finite amount of fuel it would have a short expected life span.  The other option would be to stay in a circular path around the top of the flat earth, just like the sun and moon.  Again, 'Houston, we have a problem'.   That would mean in order for the ISS to stay above a flat earth in a circle, the rockets would have to be going continuously.  I guess you could repeal Newton's 2nd law, but I fear that you just wouldn't be able to fool 'Mother Nature'.
All speculation posted by you.

But thank you for your submission.

Rockets would not necessarily be a requirement for any object circling above our heads.

MattyWS

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2018, 12:29:45 PM »
Yes, it is visible. you can say it isn't but it's pretty common knowledge and testable yourself by looking up... It seems to be common practice for FE people to argue this way... Using your own argument style against you, I could say you don't have a brain. Just because it's assumed you do have a brain doesn't mean you have one. Have you seen your own brain? No? Oh I guess your brain isn't real and it's all up to you now to prove it's real. I would say go get a CT scan but how do we know that technology isn't made to make us think you have a brain in some big conspiracy? I guess with that said, Flat earthers under their own methods don't have brains!

Nothing to do with this thread? A thread trying to prove ISS isn't orbiting the earth in lower gravity? You're saying pointing out the ISS being there isn't anything to do with the ISS videos being faked? They could spend a ton of money and lots of time and resources trying to fake a video just to deceive you for now reason OR maybe they could just go up the the ISS that we can all see exists, with a camera, and record a video on it for other purposes that aren't a total waste of time.

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2018, 12:43:48 PM »
Yes, it is visible. you can say it isn't but it's pretty common knowledge and testable yourself by looking up... It seems to be common practice for FE people to argue this way... Using your own argument style against you, I could say you don't have a brain. Just because it's assumed you do have a brain doesn't mean you have one. Have you seen your own brain? No? Oh I guess your brain isn't real and it's all up to you now to prove it's real. I would say go get a CT scan but how do we know that technology isn't made to make us think you have a brain in some big conspiracy? I guess with that said, Flat earthers under their own methods don't have brains!
It seems quite easy for you to conflate ideas and concepts that have absolutely zero connection.

First, visibility of the ISS  has absolutely nothing to do with the OP video.

B, it is simply impossible (by the naked human eye) to resolve an object the size of the ISS at a distance of 300km.

That is just plain fact.
Nothing to do with this thread? A thread trying to prove ISS isn't orbiting the earth in lower gravity? You're saying pointing out the ISS being there isn't anything to do with the ISS videos being faked? They could spend a ton of money and lots of time and resources trying to fake a video just to deceive you for now reason OR maybe they could just go up the the ISS that we can all see exists, with a camera, and record a video on it for other purposes that aren't a total waste of time.

The thread title is: "Help me debunk this stupid video"

The OP: "Look this video got sent to me the other day and i am no expert on video stuff, so like i figure they are using ropes and stuff, but like i said, i am not confident in my argument on how they faked this... only that they DID! Anyone whos interested take a look, I probably missed something, god be with ye all ""

The other post made by the author of the OP: "Inteesting arguments here, i hadn't pickup up on the strain he seems to be under trying to keep himself "Weightless", from this it seems it might just be very clever cable work and cgi.... And i can't rule it out because who knows what they can and can't do, but the underwater idea seems a little far fetched, just because of the huge amount of crew resources and money needed, it would just be easier to green screen it or something, because by the time you have removed all the water in post i can't imagine there being much useable video left, also between all the various "Astronauts" there is a lot of this well produced video being released every day, so even with their funny money, time would still be an issue trying to edit all these to near perfection and distributed, Unless someone can convince me otherwise, i am going to stand by my theory of a well designed set, with an immense amount of cable work and some clever CGI.

Thanks all who responded"

My apologies, but kindly point out where the OP states the purpose of the thread is, "...trying to prove ISS isn't orbiting the earth in lower gravity."

You are terrific at building strawmen.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 12:53:19 PM by totallackey »

Offline Mysfit

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Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2018, 12:49:40 PM »
I think we have failed with the original OP's request.
We have not been able to disprove the video. Least of all by budget.
First, visibility of the ISS  has absolutely nothing to do with the OP video.
...
My apologies, but kindly point out where the OP states the purpose of the thread is, "...trying to prove ISS isn't orbiting the earth in lower gravity."
How much further before we can consider it evidence of what it is? Proof of a man-made installation in low-if-not-zero G space
Does the OP have an "it's dead" threshold in mind?

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2018, 12:56:33 PM »
I think we have failed with the original OP's request.
We have not been able to disprove the video. Least of all by budget.
First, visibility of the ISS  has absolutely nothing to do with the OP video.
...
My apologies, but kindly point out where the OP states the purpose of the thread is, "...trying to prove ISS isn't orbiting the earth in lower gravity."
How much further before we can consider it evidence of what it is? Proof of a man-made installation in low-if-not-zero G space
Does the OP have an "it's dead" threshold in mind?
I am not a video expert.

I cannot help the OP debunk the video.

I am unaware the OP was looking for further thresholds.

Further, I have read all the responses dismissive of the idea it could be special effects or green screened. I would simply offer the motion picture Gravity as evidence any short video would be easily produced and just as effective in deceiving an audience.

Gravity was produced on a budget of only $100 million USD, a fraction of the budgets realized by all space agencies across the flat earth.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 01:02:16 PM by totallackey »

Offline Mysfit

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Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2018, 01:17:26 PM »
Further, I have read all the responses dismissive of the idea it could be special effects or green screened. I would simply offer the motion picture Gravity as evidence any short video would be easily produced and just as effective in deceiving an audience.

Gravity was produced on a budget of only $100 million USD, a fraction of the budgets realized by all space agencies across the flat earth.
I'm not sure Gravity is a good pick, even Neil De Grasse Tyson (probly spelled that wrong) pointed out that the lady's hair was all wrong. I originally went with Avatar, as the CG would have to be top-notch and I assume alot of the money goes into covering such a thing up etc.
Tom originally brought up a budget of $1m a year, which i put into my Disney hercules calculator
$1m in a year? So they will need to make realistic CG on a $1m budget. Going to compare to Avatar, then.
Avatar budget $237m for 2h 42m (not all CG budget, but both vids would need actors).
for $1m we get 0.7m. That video is 50mins long... I'll do the maths again... Well. *takes calculator home*
J-man then included conspiracy money, but my calculator was still on hand.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlikoff/2017/12/08/has-our-government-spent-21-trillion-of-our-money-without-telling-us/#187d8c7b7aef
I bothered to look into this. 6.5 trillion USD snuck away in military budgets. That is pretty sneaky. It's not 21 trillion, but still sneaky.
Lemme adjust my Avatar CG maths.
Avatar budget $0.237b for 2h 42m (not all CG budget, but both vids would need actors).
for $6500b we get just over 74,000 hours. That's that video sorted. *dusts hands*

Oh? Other videos are posted every day? Best check those. "gopro space" should be a good enough search term.
Almost 4m results. I'll average from the first ten results for average length... 18.5 mins. Making progress
so, 4m times 1/4 hour... 1million hours of footage.

1m - 74k is 900k and change.
I think we need the rest of the budget.
Another 70 trillion USD, i think.
Conspiracies ALWAYS struggle at the money stage. Too many people, too much work and not enough bullets in the world.
Bearing in mind that if I was a part of a conspiracy, I would demand lots of money. You don't see many billionaire astronauts
A quick google search shows they get paid $65-100k... officially. I would demand more money officially, too.

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2018, 01:30:28 PM »
I'd say the technology is there to fake these videos but it would take a lot of effort to do it and I've not seen any actual analysis which suggests that is what has happened, just a lot of supposition.

And film of astronauts in zero G has been around since the 60s, I'd suggest the parts with multiple astronauts would have been very hard to fake then.

"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop

Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2018, 01:45:55 PM »
The ISS can be seen with the naked eye.

Not like this:


But like this:


https://spotthestation.nasa.gov/

----

Edit:
ISS tracker says I have a 4-5 minute pre-dawn window during which I should be able to catch a low-elevation pass of the ISS. Clear skies permitting, I'll see if I can capture a 50mm-equivalent focal length (naked eye) video of what is predicted.



« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 09:30:10 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Re: Help Me debunk this stupid video
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2018, 09:25:08 PM »

Some pretty amazing CGI was developed for cinema back in the 90's (See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_computer_animation_in_film_and_television#1990s).

However, even when we watch the hours of footage, some live and some not, of space stuff today, let alone in the 90's, for it to be CGI, the computing power to do so is currently unimaginable. A believable 10 second shot today in a movie of, let's say, an astronaut and maybe some other stuff floating around, takes a server farm and days to render. 10 seconds, days! Let alone the $, artists involved. Like I've said before, it's actually more technologically feasible, cheaper and easier to put some people in space than it is to fake it.

But you see terminator 2, robocop2, the lawnmower man etc you can CLEARLY tell that they are computer animated and not real.

Also in 1990 they didn't have server farms like they have today. VERY high end computers had like 8 MB of ram and like 200 MB of storage. early 90's super computer < 2018 smart phone.

How was 1990's technology (or even before that) able to produce this video (or other videos like it)?

My best guess is that they are on a 0 gravity plane ride where the plane accelerates down at 9.8 m/s giving the illusion of being weightless.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 09:27:54 PM by iamcpc »