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Offline stack

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2018, 11:01:15 PM »
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?

In case you've forgotten, this thread is about constructing an FE map, not a debate as to whether various suncalcs are earth shape agnostic or not.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2018, 01:59:56 AM »
This happens twice a year.

Photographers crowd the beach in anticipation, not because they're guessing but because they've got the date and time from a predictive calculator...which has always been spot on and never failed to predict its occurrence.

However that calculator works (pattern, algorithm), it works. I've yet to experience -- or hear of anyone experiencing -- a discrepancy.

Do you have any documented evidence and observations for that? Since your claims you should be able to prove what the sun is doing. If photographers crowd the beach then there should be lots of documented evidence.
Next occurrence, according to the predicted sunset bearing output of TimeandDate.com are the sunsets on May 1st and 2nd occurring at 7:30pm local. 

Whether permitting (and assuming I'm still interested in this site or haven't lost my permission to post), I'll document both the occurrence and the crowd.

Will I have to document that my documentation is authenticate and unaltered?
Do I need to provide evidence that my clock is calibrated or that the location is accurate?

Here's another neat occurrence that is reliable predictable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9JAv5Co5uY

The patterns of the sun been known to repeat themselves. It is no surprise that ancient monuments are related to a certain day which signifies the start of the new season.

In this video, how do we know what direction the door is pointing in? How do we know that it is pointed exactly East?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 02:05:26 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2018, 02:21:32 AM »
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?
What other model of the earth predicts that such an event will occur in Manhattan (or anywhere else)?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2018, 02:29:03 AM »
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?
What other model of the earth predicts that such an event will occur in Manhattan (or anywhere else)?

Any model that has the sun moving in North and South motions over the year.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2018, 02:31:06 AM »

The patterns of the sun been known to repeat themselves. It is no surprise that ancient monuments are related to a certain day which signifies the start of the new season.

In this video, how do we know what direction the door is pointing in? How do we know that it is pointed exactly East?
Tom,

Do you understand the topic?

Does whatever flat earth model you subscribe to agree with this statement or not?

Quote
on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.

The issue is that on a globe earth, this is NOT true. When this was contradicted as being NOT true, you seemed to contest it. Are you saying it IS true for a flat earth?

The new requirement is this:
Quote
on the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.

How about now? Is this true for your flat earth model? Because it IS true for a globe earth.

If we're in agreement that it's true for both, then what's the debate?

If we're not, then explain why not. The fixation on how TimeandDate derives it's output is a separate pet issue for you. If you want to argue that issue, make a new topic but don't derail this one with a red herring. Answer the questions above. The point of the topic is to articulate the requirements that a FE map ought to have.  You know, those that you can agree with?

What is it about the statement above that you disagree with that makes it not true for FE?

Edit: I'm backing out of this topic. Consider my questions above rhetorical. I have no real interest in helping figure out how to construct a map of a flat earth. And based on Tom's input, I don't think the flat earth community here is interested in the "help" of flat earth skeptics/critics.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 02:57:23 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2018, 02:36:02 AM »
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?
What other model of the earth predicts that such an event will occur in Manhattan (or anywhere else)?

Any model that has the sun moving in North and South motions over the year.
Do you have an other model of the earth calculator that predicts when that event will occur in Manhattan?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2018, 03:03:57 AM »
Edit: I'm backing out of this topic. Consider my questions above rhetorical. I have no real interest in helping figure out how to construct a map of a flat earth. And based on Tom's input, I don't think the flat earth community here is interested in the "help" of flat earth skeptics/critics.

I am interested in constructing a map of the Flat Earth. The problem is that there are so many assumptions and hypothesis' that we need evidence for any assertion. We cannot just assume.

You are asking us to assume a whole litany of things and then you are asking for a map that explains it.

No. Lets see the documented observations and logs first.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 03:42:48 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2018, 04:42:42 AM »
Edit: I'm backing out of this topic. Consider my questions above rhetorical. I have no real interest in helping figure out how to construct a map of a flat earth. And based on Tom's input, I don't think the flat earth community here is interested in the "help" of flat earth skeptics/critics.

I am interested in constructing a map of the Flat Earth. The problem is that there are so many assumptions and hypothesis' that we need evidence for any assertion. We cannot just assume.

You are asking us to assume a whole litany of things and then you are asking for a map that explains it.

No. Lets see the documented observations and logs first.

I'm using simple, easy to understand, easy to verify, non-contentious observations.  If you don't agree with them, make your voice heard.  As you have been asked directly and have not raised any objections to the observations I will take it as agreement with the observations.

I an not asking you to provide a map that explains it.  I will be working on the map along with whoever else wants to participate.  All are welcome to join in.

Bobby, thank you for the honest participation.  I hope you reconsider and join back in.  In the meantime are there any other people that would like to add objections to the observations?  Pete, Thork, J-Man, Jrowe, Totallackey, others, are these observations accurate?  If not, I'd like to hear what is incorrect.

If you review this thread, I have already amended the observations.  I am open to real criticism.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2018, 04:48:19 AM »
Great. Now how does this event in Manhatten support a Round Earth and no other model of the earth?
What other model of the earth predicts that such an event will occur in Manhattan (or anywhere else)?

Any model that has the sun moving in North and South motions over the year.
Do you have an other model of the earth calculator that predicts when that event will occur in Manhattan?

For this thread, the important thing is not the model, FE, RE, DE, etc.  It's about what are the real world observations.

There is a massive sundial near Quito, Ecuador, on the equator, called Quitsato.  On this sundial, on the equinoxes, the shadow of the sun can be confirmed to pass straight east-to-west.  There are other points on the equator this happens.  Are people confident this is the case for all locations on the equator on the equinox?  I have no objections to accepting this.  However, I could be overlooking something.  If I am, please inform me.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2018, 07:41:52 AM »
Edit: I'm backing out of this topic. Consider my questions above rhetorical. I have no real interest in helping figure out how to construct a map of a flat earth. And based on Tom's input, I don't think the flat earth community here is interested in the "help" of flat earth skeptics/critics.

I am interested in constructing a map of the Flat Earth. The problem is that there are so many assumptions and hypothesis' that we need evidence for any assertion. We cannot just assume.

You are asking us to assume a whole litany of things and then you are asking for a map that explains it.

No. Lets see the documented observations and logs first.
What do you have to assume for a map that shows a flat earth?

Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2018, 08:12:53 AM »
I am interested in constructing a map of the Flat Earth. The problem is that there are so many assumptions and hypothesis' that we need evidence for any assertion. We cannot just assume.
And yet when shown several ways of measuring horizon dip and testing the hypothesis that it always remains at eye level you refused to do so.
You actually dismissed all the results which showed it doesn't stay at eye level but refused to do your own tests.
You have instead assumed that Rowbotham's result is correct. Why is that?

It's fine to take the stance that you can't trust anything unless you test it for yourself. In real life no-one actually takes that stance but if you claim to then fine. But be consistent about it.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2018, 12:58:41 PM »
Edit: I'm backing out of this topic. Consider my questions above rhetorical. I have no real interest in helping figure out how to construct a map of a flat earth. And based on Tom's input, I don't think the flat earth community here is interested in the "help" of flat earth skeptics/critics.

I am interested in constructing a map of the Flat Earth. The problem is that there are so many assumptions and hypothesis' that we need evidence for any assertion. We cannot just assume.

You are asking us to assume a whole litany of things and then you are asking for a map that explains it.

No. Lets see the documented observations and logs first.
Did you wish to discuss the Almanac again?
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6083.msg114944#msg114944

Wherein a sailor explains how he uses said Almanac and that's it's information agrees with his personal observations/measurements over the course of decades of use
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6083.msg148428#msg148428

The fact is Tom, you know you can't allow timeanddate or similar sites to be considered accurate or reliable for the information they provide. Because if they are, neither of the FESs models have a hope of being accurate due to the way the sun light on the Earth has to twist and bend in crazy ways over the year no matter how you setup the continents. https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=9178.msg143874#msg143874

I've offered before, and would be more than happy to offer again. I have friends or relatives across a number of different latitudes. Most would be willing and ready to assist in testing the accuracy of the predicted sunrise/set times on timeanddate. I'm certain most of us on here would be only too happy to assist as well. How many observations would you require to accept their times are accurate to within say 3 minutes in either direction?

Although honestly the best part of all this is your continuous claim they're based on patterns, followed by your rejection of allowing us to reference them for much of anything for some reason.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2018, 01:26:17 PM »
Curious Squirrel, AllAroundTheWorld, Inquisitive,
Good points, thanks.  Tom's inconstant complaints have been noted and dismissed.  He is only trying to derail this thread, let's not allow that to happen.

Now, could we please return the the topic.  Would you three care to comment on the list of observations:

1. on the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

I have some thoughts on #1 and a further correlated observation to add, but I would like to verify it's accuracy before moving forward.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2018, 01:56:37 PM »
Some independent sources talking about the sun's path on the equinox.

"Everyone along Earth’s equator on the day of the equinox – and for a day or two before and after it – will experience that noonday sun more or less overhead."
http://earthsky.org/tonight/sun-over-earths-equator-at-equinox

"Imagine standing at the equator.  At point A you are positioned in the middle of the nighttime side of the globe; it is midnight at Point A.  6 hours later you will be standing at Point B where you will move from night to day; this is sunrise.  To see the sun you must look exactly back along one of the rays of light coming from the sun.  You must turn and look straight east to do this.  One the equinoxes, the sun will rise in the east (not just somewhere in the east but exactly due east).  This only happens on the spring and fall equinox.  The rest of the year the sun will rise south or north of east."
http://www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/courselinks/fall07/nats101s31/lecture_notes/sunpaths.html

"In late March and late September (at the "equinoxes"), the sun's path follows the celestial equator. It then rises directly east and sets directly west."
https://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/ua/sunandseasons.html


These are theoretical discussions of what will happen in the future and for all time.  The pattern and understanding of the sun's path on the equator on the equinox well understood based on thousands of years of observation.  The pattern is completely consistent and predictable.

The polar regions are exceptional because there are the only place where ease and west don't apply the same.  If you are exactly on the north pole, by definition, every direction is due south.  Observation #4 would not apply.  I'm not sure how to correctly refer to the south pole when considering the AE map as the south pole can be considered to be a line of circumference.  That's clearly not what is meant by a pole.  Maybe just calling it a "polar region" is satisfactory.  I'm not certain exactly how large to consider this area (north or south).  Excluding the entire Arctic and Antarctic circles seems to be excessive, but probably fine for this map consideration.  There are other simple observations that can be added regarding these regions.


At this point I am completely satisfied that observations #1, #4 and #5 are accurate for all locations on earth outside the polar regions.  As #5 represents a subset of #4, I will drop it from the list and add a caveat regarding the polar regions.  The current list of observations:

1. on the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4. on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth, except for the polar regions.

I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2018, 02:32:03 PM »
Now, could we please return the the topic.  Would you three care to comment on the list of observations:

1. on the equinox the sun traces a very nearly straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is very nearly directly almost overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is very nearly directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

I have some thoughts on #1 and a further correlated observation to add, but I would like to verify it's accuracy before moving forward.
OK. Let's say all that is true. The question is (and apologies if this has been dealt with elsewhere in the thread) how do we use that information to make a map?
Especially without making any assumptions about the shape of the earth.
Let's say I'm at one point on the tropic of cancer, you are on another and we have synchronised watches. You record when the sun is directly overhead at the solstice, I do the same.
So now we know how long the sun takes to get from one place to the other but we don't know it's speed. Are we assuming it stays at a constant speed?
I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here but it's hard to do this without making some assumptions, the tricky part is agreeing on those assumptions.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2018, 02:35:23 PM »
The fact is Tom, you know you can't allow timeanddate or similar sites to be considered accurate or reliable for the information they provide. Because if they are, neither of the FESs models have a hope of being accurate due to the way the sun light on the Earth has to twist and bend in crazy ways over the year no matter how you setup the continents.

If I started a thread with the premise that the moon did something which showed that it was not a globe would you ask evidence for my assertion, or would you accept my claim at face value?

Guess what. You are going to ask for evidence.

No double standards. You need to provide evidence for all claims.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2018, 02:54:17 PM »
The fact is Tom, you know you can't allow timeanddate or similar sites to be considered accurate or reliable for the information they provide. Because if they are, neither of the FESs models have a hope of being accurate due to the way the sun light on the Earth has to twist and bend in crazy ways over the year no matter how you setup the continents.

If I started a thread with the premise that the moon did something which showed that it was not a globe would you ask evidence for my assertion, or would you accept my claim at face value?

Guess what. You are going to ask for evidence.

No double standards. You need to provide evidence for all claims.



I would not take your claim at face value but if you started such a thread and linked to a mathematical model that gave accurate predictions of the world around us, we definitely would offer some deference to your claims. I come here looking for such info.


Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2018, 03:17:48 PM »
The fact is Tom, you know you can't allow timeanddate or similar sites to be considered accurate or reliable for the information they provide. Because if they are, neither of the FESs models have a hope of being accurate due to the way the sun light on the Earth has to twist and bend in crazy ways over the year no matter how you setup the continents.

If I started a thread with the premise that the moon did something which showed that it was not a globe would you ask evidence for my assertion, or would you accept my claim at face value?

Guess what. You are going to ask for evidence.

No double standards. You need to provide evidence for all claims.
You've been handed evidence for the accuracy of timeanddate and similar sites multiple times, and ignore it every. Single. Time. Or go far beyond reasonable doubt in attempts to claim it's not evidence. It being based or not on math dependent on a round Earth is wholly irrelevant when discussing whether it's information is accurate. You can't even agree on what the requirements would be to accept it as accurate. But I know if I keep this up I will likely shift into statements more appropriate for AR than the upper fora. If you wish to discuss what your requirements are that haven't been fulfilled I would be more than happy to entertain them. But simply stating 'you must provide evidence' when evidence has already been provided is not useful to a discussion.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2018, 04:12:24 PM »
The fact is Tom, you know you can't allow timeanddate or similar sites to be considered accurate or reliable for the information they provide. Because if they are, neither of the FESs models have a hope of being accurate due to the way the sun light on the Earth has to twist and bend in crazy ways over the year no matter how you setup the continents.

If I started a thread with the premise that the moon did something which showed that it was not a globe would you ask evidence for my assertion, or would you accept my claim at face value?

Guess what. You are going to ask for evidence.

No double standards. You need to provide evidence for all claims.

On this thread, no one made the claim  [insert statement here] shows the earth is [insert shape here]. The claim was that we have a general idea of when and where the sun will rise and set for different positions on the earth.

I generally thought this was common knowledge because of things like Stonehenge, Manhattanhenge, and many other situations where the sunset/sunrise aligns with something on pattern which can be mathematically predicted.

When discussing making a map we might, at some point, need to determine what a mile is. I will make the claim that one mile is 5280 feet and you will start saying things like:

"you have to provide photographic and video evidence that one mile is 5280 feet"
"How do we know these mile photographs are what they really claim"
"How do we know these mile videos are what they really claim"
"How does a mile being 5280 feet support the round earth model only"


Huh?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 04:16:30 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2018, 04:31:44 PM »
Squirrel, Nostrand, iamcpc, et all:

If I linked to a moon calculator on tfes.org, with no source provided as to how these predictions were created, the evidence they were created on, or how accurate they are, then it would be dismissed out of hand. Am I wrong about that?

If you are claiming something about the sun, you need to provide evidence for all claims. One accuracy in sunrise times does not equal accuracy for sunrise direction for all points on the equator. If the calculator is anything like the NOAA Solar Calculator, then there are many different pattern-based algorithms involved.

Just link us to the documents for the world-wide sun observation project which the calculators are (hopefully) based on. What is so flipping difficult about that?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 04:39:41 PM by Tom Bishop »