Offline iamcpc

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2018, 03:40:04 PM »

So, given this example, do people agree that this can be generalized to all locations on the equator for observations 1 and 5?

This does not match any model, FE, RE, DE, whatever.  It's observation.  If the observation is true, it's true regardless of model.

I just went over why these observations could never be accepted. Perceptive limitations, optical anomalies, chaotic atmosphere, and this information can be faked way too easy.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2018, 04:06:04 PM »
This does not match any model, FE, RE, DE, whatever.  It's observation.  If the observation is true, it's true regardless of model.

What observation? Who made it? Where can we see records of this observation?

"We can all agree on these hypothetical observations" is not good enough.

I'm looking for verification of my observations.  I am fairly certain they are correct, but not totally certain.  If you think an observation is wrong, please share.  If you think an observation is correct, say so.

I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline stack

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2018, 05:13:58 PM »
I’m sure the irony is not lost on you that all of the FE maps are actually globe maps.
I'm not sure how you can say that, given that the concept behind the monopole model long predates the popularisation of RET. The fact is that all maps are maps of the Earth. I could similarly assert that all of your maps are maps of the Flat Earth, and it would be an equally genuine argument.
Concept, yes, in reality, no.

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2018, 05:33:37 PM »
This does not match any model, FE, RE, DE, whatever.  It's observation.  If the observation is true, it's true regardless of model.

What observation? Who made it? Where can we see records of this observation?

"We can all agree on these hypothetical observations" is not good enough.

What observation?
One observation that I've personally made is that (based on limited perceptive abilities of the human eye/brain, and chaotic atmospheric conditions, and unknown variables which affect optics), the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. I've never been to the north or south pole or through all of Asia though so it might be different there. I have made this observation throughout North America, parts of South America, and parts of Europe.

Who made it?
I did. As well as dozens of people of these forums. I believe you have made this observation as well.

Where can we see records of this observation?
You can observe this for yourself personally by walking outside.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2018, 05:35:29 PM »
I’m sure the irony is not lost on you that all of the FE maps are actually globe maps.
I'm not sure how you can say that, given that the concept behind the monopole model long predates the popularisation of RET. The fact is that all maps are maps of the Earth. I could similarly assert that all of your maps are maps of the Flat Earth, and it would be an equally genuine argument.
Concept, yes, in reality, no.


This is not on topic with this thread.  Please start a new thread for this discussion.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2018, 07:22:18 PM »
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2018, 08:06:41 PM »
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?

Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2018, 08:08:20 PM »
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Well documented, unless you can show otherwise.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2018, 08:22:14 PM »
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Well documented, unless you can show otherwise.

Where are the documents?

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2018, 08:26:34 PM »
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Well documented, unless you can show otherwise.

Where are the documents?

Tom, I'm requesting input, you are not providing input.  If you disagree with the observations lets hear why.  Let's hear what you think is untrue, I am really trying to gather true observations.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2018, 08:44:50 PM »
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Well documented, unless you can show otherwise.

Where are the documents?

Tom, I'm requesting input, you are not providing input.  If you disagree with the observations lets hear why.

What observations am I disagreeing with? You have posted hypothetical observations.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2018, 09:08:36 PM »
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Well documented, unless you can show otherwise.

Where are the documents?

Tom, I'm requesting input, you are not providing input.  If you disagree with the observations lets hear why.

What observations am I disagreeing with? You have posted hypothetical observations.

I don't know what observations you are disagreeing with.  I honestly can't tell is you are confused or just messing with me.

I'll make it clear:
Do you agree the on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator?

If not, please let me know if this isn't correct.

I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2018, 09:11:06 PM »
After some investigation, I have discovered that observations #2 and #3 are incorrect.  Thanks to Iampc for the link to suncalc.net to assist.  I will adjust the observations to match what is claimed on this site and several others that I reviewed to confirm the observations.  New text bolded below.


1. on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator.
2. on the northern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of cancer.
3. on the southern solstice the sun is directly overhead at solar noon for every location on the tropic of capricorn.
4.  on the equinox the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west for every location on the earth.
5.  on the equinox, for all locations on the equator, the sun rises almost exactly due east and sets almost exactly due west.

Do you have any evidence for that?
2018 June Solstice occurred Jun 21 at 10:07 am UTC
- https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html
- http://earthsky.org/earth/everything-you-need-to-know-june-solstice

The Tropic of Cancer is currently N23°26′

At 1007 UTC on June 21st, 2018, the sun was directly overhead N23° 26', E28° 42'
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html?month=6&day=21&year=2018&hour=10&min=07&sec=0&n=&ntxt=&earth=0

That's the only location where the sun would have been 90° overhead along the Tropic of Cancer. A few minutes to the east and west and the elevation angle is <90°.

Check: Aswan, Egypt (N24°05, E32°54") solar noon was at 11:50am local time; sun elevation 89.3°
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/egypt/aswan?month=6&year=2018
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 09:22:42 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2018, 09:25:09 PM »
Bobby, those are calculators, not documented observations.

I don't know what observations you are disagreeing with.  I honestly can't tell is you are confused or just messing with me.

I'll make it clear:
Do you agree the on the equinox the sun traces a straight line across the sky for every location on the equator?

If not, please let me know if this isn't correct.

I'll agree with whatever the data and observations tell us. If there are no such observations, then there is no reason to believe in that hypothesis.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 09:30:16 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2018, 09:30:15 PM »
Those are calculators, not documented observations.
True.

Up to you then to show where the calculator has failed to match an observation.

Or, if you can find counter documentation of a location on the Tropic of Cancer on June 21st, 2018, other than that southern Egypt location where the sun was, in fact, directly overhead.

Good luck with that.
 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2018, 09:30:55 PM »
Those are calculators, not documented observations.
True.

Up to you then to show where the calculator has failed to match an observation.

Or, if you can find counter documentation of a location on the Tropic of Cancer on June 21st other than that southern Egypt location where the sun was, in fact, directly overhead.

Good luck with that.

No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.

Did timeanddate.com send agents to every point on earth to carefully document the activities and actions of the sun throughout the year?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2018, 09:33:57 PM »
No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.
Don't need to show anything. Any day, any time, go out and perform an observation and compare it with timeanddate.

Have you done that? Have you any reason to believe what timeanddate (or Stellarium or any "calculator" we reference) is not accurate? If you don't, then the calculator IS documentation until you can prove it to be unreliable.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2018, 09:38:58 PM »
Those are calculators, not documented observations.
True.

Up to you then to show where the calculator has failed to match an observation.

Or, if you can find counter documentation of a location on the Tropic of Cancer on June 21st other than that southern Egypt location where the sun was, in fact, directly overhead.

Good luck with that.

No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.

Did timeanddate.com send agents to every point on earth to carefully document the activities and actions of the sun throughout the year?

Respectfully, timeanddate dot com produces accurate predictions that can be observed in the world around us.  Tom does not.
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2018, 09:40:39 PM »
No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.
Don't need to show anything. Any day, any time, go out and perform an observation and compare it with timeanddate.

Have you done that? Have you any reason to believe what timeanddate (or Stellarium or any "calculator" we reference) is not accurate? If you don't, then the calculator IS documentation until you can prove it to be unreliable.

"Prove me wrong" is not a legitimate debate strategy and is instant disqualification. You need to prove your own self correct.

Respectfully, timeanddate dot com produces accurate predictions that can be observed in the world around us.  Tom does not.

Then you should be able to link us to documented observations that prove what the sun does on equinox or solstice.

Are you to say that there is a mountain of observations which were generated at great cost, with agents around the world, without even a mention of those efforts on the calculator websites or in any other resoruce, and then such observations and reports were immediately then thrown away, leaving the data source for these calculators a complete mystery?

No. That is completely stupid. There was no world-wide sun fact finding excursion.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 09:46:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Requirements elements for a FE map
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2018, 09:46:29 PM »
No. You need to show what observations, if any, that the calculator is based on. We have emailed timeanddate in the past and they refused to reveal their sources.
Don't need to show anything. Any day, any time, go out and perform an observation and compare it with timeanddate.

Have you done that? Have you any reason to believe what timeanddate (or Stellarium or any "calculator" we reference) is not accurate? If you don't, then the calculator IS documentation until you can prove it to be unreliable.

I can attest that when I have referred to timeanddate.com it has always been correct.

Tom, remember, I have chosen observations that are easily verifiable and there is little or no contention about them.  If you think these observations are inaccurate, make it known.  So far, you have not raised any objections to the observations.  I don't know why you re being so obstructionist.  I sincerely doubt you have any objections to observations #1, #4, and #5.  Are you are just messing around and are not sincerely seeking truth?

I'm not looking for a mathematical type proof, like proving there are infinite primes.  I've looked at the proof for infinite primes, it's thick and, not studying math currently, I no longer understand the technical proof, but, without the proof, I conceptually understand why there are infinite primes.  People can have conversations about infinite primes without first going through the proof and agreeing it is correct and acceptable, or even understanding the proof.

I am looking for an honest conversation about these observations.  Tell us why you think they are incorrect os silently accept them as correct.

I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect