Offline rpt

  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2018, 11:30:57 AM »
I was pointing out the fallacy of MiraculumHelix's post. Why didn't he get a warning for not contributing to the discussion?
I started this thread but no one has actually given a flat earth explanation of my observations. If they did, I'd be delighted to have a discussion with them.

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8262
  • (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2018, 12:33:32 PM »
I was pointing out the fallacy of MiraculumHelix's post. Why didn't he get a warning for not contributing to the discussion?
To answer bluntly: He did. He's already sitting on 2 warnings, both issued yesterday.

Please remember that, per the rules, you're not supposed to bicker about moderation in the middle of the thread. If you have questions about how moderators operate, raise them in S&C. Normally, this would net you another warning, but let's try and not be harsh for now.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Facebook and Twitter!


*mic stays stationary and earth accelerates upwards towards it*

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 281
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2018, 05:31:10 AM »
Please explain why VHF signals are short range and HF signals are long range.

I'm just gonna take a stab at this.



VHF signals are short range because they don't travel through the atmosphere that well.
HF signals are long range because they are better at traveling through the atmosphere.

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 204
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2018, 02:26:01 PM »
I have been working with radios for more than 50 years.  HF signals are long range because they can bounce off the ionosphere and then back to the earth.  If a radio operator wants better range he would design an antenna that had a low angle of radiation.  Doing that would allow the signals to bounce off the ionosphere at a longer distance away and come back to earth farther too.  VHF and UHF signals are short range because the ionosphere has whats call the MUF.  That's maximum usable frequency.  That frequency is variable and depends on how well the sun ionizes the layer at any given moment.  Since VHF and UHF signals are way below the maximum usable frequency, ionospheric bouncing isn't a viable strategy.  That means that those signals are line of sight.  Some entities want to reach out longer distances with their VHF or UHF signals.  To do that, very tall towers are constructed.  Ever see a 1000 foot TV tower?  A taller tower means that the signal can reach farther over the earth's curvature.  The farther out the signals go the more TVs the signal will reach and the bigger potential audience the station can have.  A bigger audience means the more the station can charge for their commercials on the 6 o'clock news.  It's just basic economics.  TV station owners aren't dummies (usually).  Many stations had transmitters and antennas on smaller towers and just kept them around in case the main transmitter had a technical issue.  When the main transmitter was off and the auxiliary transmitter was on, the stations lost a significant portion of their audience.  That was bad at many prime times of the day.  I was a transmitter engineer and can personally attest that the station's switchboard would light up if we lost our main transmitter in the middle of the 'Soap Opera' times in the morning.  Yes, at certain times you could receive signals from a longer distance with your TV.  My explanation was simplified to only cover the bare essentials.  There are more things involved than the few I've mentioned.   If the flat earth folks have a better and cheaper idea on how to increase the range of VHF and UHF signals other than the construction of very tall towers I'm sure that the owners of the local TV stations would be all over the idea and you could make a fortune.

*

Offline BillO

  • *
  • Posts: 274
  • Huh?
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2018, 02:36:18 PM »
I'm just gonna take a stab at this.



VHF signals are short range because they don't travel through the atmosphere that well.
HF signals are long range because they are better at traveling through the atmosphere.

Okay, you have now just made a statement.  Good.  However, you have not demonstrated the validity of that statement.   Would you care to do that?  To explain why VHF signals don't travel well through the atmosphere and why UHF signals do?  If what you said is true, then there has to be a good and reasonable theory behind it.  People have been using radio for well over a century have have gotten quite a bit of good information about how it works and have become quite expert in getting it to work the way they want.  In searching I can't find any explanation for your hypothesis, an hypothesis which goes against the normally accepted theory on the propagation of radio signals, so I would really be delighted if you could possibly give us a link to the explanation, or even run it past us yourself.

Or possibly it is acceptable just to make baseless statements and that is plenty good enough.  Is that correct?

Can I make on of my own then?  The earth is a massive sphere and orbits the more massive sun, which in turn orbits the even more massive galactic core. 8)

So, by your very own methodology, were all done here, right?  I shouldn't have to offer any explanation for my statements and the whole argument regarding flat/spherical earth is now settled.  I'm glad we could wrap this up and I had no idea it should be so easy.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 02:38:10 PM by BillO »
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Quote from: Tom Bishop - Zetetic Council Member
The moon's orbital path has a diameter of 768,000 km. That is almost one million miles.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 02:51:34 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop

*

Offline BillO

  • *
  • Posts: 274
  • Huh?
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2018, 03:03:43 PM »
Few articles which may be useful:

https://rsgb.org/main/get-started-in-amateur-radio/operating-your-new-station/vhfuhf-propagation/
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-lower-frequency-Radio-Waves-travel-farther-than-shorter-ones
https://www.pa9x.com/propagation/

Edit: Another one here:
http://www.met.nps.edu/~psguest/EMEO_online/module3/module_3_1.html


Good collection of accurate explanations of the accept theory.  I was just wondering if iamcpc can find or offer something similar to prop up his expressed position, which goes against these explanations.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Quote from: Tom Bishop - Zetetic Council Member
The moon's orbital path has a diameter of 768,000 km. That is almost one million miles.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 281
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2018, 03:51:52 PM »
In the flat earth model, why would the frequency affect how far the signals travel?

I thought this was already answered but i'll answer it again.

One does better at traveling through the air than the other. Therefore it travels farther.

Why would the time of day matter?
Since the signals are traveling through the air during the day the air molecules are warmed by the sun.

How can I still make contacts over long distances even though I live in a valley?
The signal is traveling through the air. Since the air hits the valley the signal travels through that air.

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 204
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2018, 04:06:54 PM »
I worked in several different venues that used radios for communications for a half century so I am familiar with the 'normally accepted theory on the propagation of radio signals'.  If you took a couple of radios into outer space most everything would work according to the theory.  The problem with using radios on the earth is the effect that the atmosphere can have.  In my earlier career days I designed, installed and maintained, on an every day basis, radio systems for police, fire, ambulance, and many other kinds of users.  I was also an amateur radio operator and I used VHF and UHF radios in that venue as well.  Since this tread pertains to amateur radio I will stick to the effects there.  Radios harness electromagnetic waves to send messages from point A to point B.  A radio signal differs from light only in the frequencies used.  Most everyone has seen what a prism can do to white light.  The reason that you see the effects are that the refractive effects depend on the frequency of the light.  The atmosphere does the same thing to radio signals only in a more disorganized manner.  On your average day a radio amateur can communicate with another amateur (VHF or UHF) at a distance that is limited by the curvature of the earth.  This is why a taller tower will give better range, on average.  Sure, hills and valleys have a big effect here as well.  Sometimes, however, there would also be atmospheric effects that would greatly enhance those signals.  Radio amateurs often seek these atmospheric anomalies and use them to get a longer distance VHF or UHF contact with another radio amateur.  Radio amateurs get their kicks out of this.  Some even look for the ionization trails of meteors to get a longer range.  The Aurora Borealis  is also used for this purpose as well.  My main point here is that the higher the frequency you use the more the curvature of the earth effects the range of your signals, on average.  Weather can effect radio communications and since the weather always changes so does the absolute range you get when using a VHF or UHF radio system.  To the average radio amateur, it doesn't matter, it's just a hobby.  For, say the state police, with a large area of jurisdiction, where the curvature of the earth can have an effect, they must have a radio system designed with the worst case scenario in mind, think an antenna on a tall tower.  They can't depend on the intermittent and highly variable atmospheric bending to get their message thru when lives may be at stake.  All of what I've said is the result of many years of experience in knowing what works in the real world.  We would have loved to have quoted a lower priced system to customers at times and put the proposed antenna on a much smaller tower, but we knew if we got the bid that the system would not provide the quoted service area 100% of the time.  This is what we had to work with in the spherical real world we had to work in.

*

Offline BillO

  • *
  • Posts: 274
  • Huh?
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2018, 06:22:42 PM »
In the flat earth model, why would the frequency affect how far the signals travel?

I thought this was already answered but i'll answer it again.

One does better at traveling through the air than the other. Therefore it travels farther.

Why would the time of day matter?
Since the signals are traveling through the air during the day the air molecules are warmed by the sun.

How can I still make contacts over long distances even though I live in a valley?
The signal is traveling through the air. Since the air hits the valley the signal travels through that air.

Again, if you going to make statements that don't fit with accepted theory, you need to provide a substitute theory so that folks can continue to work things out.

What about the well known case of AM radio dropping out as you pass under an overpass bridge.  The air goes around the bridge, so according to your hypothesis, the radio signals should go around through the air.  However, that is not the case.

Radio signals do not propagate through the air.  They do not need the air, or any other physical medium to propagate and air (provided the signal is not passing into or through the ionosphere) will have practically no effect on radio wave propagation at frequencies below ~50 GHz, and at frequencies higher than that, air only serves to attenuate the signal.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Quote from: Tom Bishop - Zetetic Council Member
The moon's orbital path has a diameter of 768,000 km. That is almost one million miles.

Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2018, 06:37:01 PM »
One does better at traveling through the air than the other. Therefore it travels farther.

That's just wishful thinking. There is no evidence. What you're saying contradicts all experiments on radio transmissions.

On a flat Earth, increasing the height of a radio tower wouldn't increase the range of the transmission. In reality, it does.
Where does Earth Not a Globe say that all beliefs contrary to the Scriptures are necessarily wrong?  ???

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 281
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2018, 09:26:16 PM »
One does better at traveling through the air than the other. Therefore it travels farther.

That's just wishful thinking. There is no evidence. What you're saying contradicts all experiments on radio transmissions.

On a flat Earth, increasing the height of a radio tower wouldn't increase the range of the transmission. In reality, it does.

The higher the radio tower the less dense the air is.

Flat earth can easily say that this is more evidence that supports the flat earth. The higher up the tower goes the less dense the atmosphere is which is exactly why it travels further!

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 281
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2018, 09:30:43 PM »
Again, if you going to make statements that don't fit with accepted theory, you need to provide a substitute theory so that folks can continue to work things out.
I did provide a substitute theory for each point. I guess you missed them. let me provide them to you.

Two different travel distances for different frequencies alternate theory (they are based on the ability of the wave to travel through the atmosphere not the shape of the earth):
 
One does better at traveling through the air than the other. Therefore it travels farther.


Different radio signal travel distances based on time of day alternate theory (different atmospheric conditions are affecting the radio travel distances not the shape of the earth):
 
Since the signals are traveling through the air during the day the air molecules are warmed by the sun.



« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 09:36:53 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2018, 10:03:08 PM »
The higher the radio tower the less dense the air is.

Flat earth can easily say that this is more evidence that supports the flat earth. The higher up the tower goes the less dense the atmosphere is which is exactly why it travels further!

Flat earth can easily say a lot of stuff, that doesn't make it true. Atmospheric pressure doesn't prevent electromagnetic waves from propagating. This is very well known.

You do realize that the variation of atmospheric pressure is ridiculously small at the height of a building?

A radio antenna 250 feet above the ground, where the air pressure is 14.6kPa, successfully transmits a VHF signal up to 20 miles away.

Another antenna 500 feet above the ground, where the air pressure is 14.4kPa so 1% less, transmits the same signal up to 27 miles so 25% more.

The quantity of air travelled by the second signal is much greater than the first one, proving that the atmosphere isn't a limiting factor.

Once again, all you have is an ad hoc explanation that doesn't make sense in any way.

Edit for the source: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-density-volume-d_195.html
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 10:06:28 PM by titidam »
Where does Earth Not a Globe say that all beliefs contrary to the Scriptures are necessarily wrong?  ???

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 204
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2018, 03:50:37 PM »
The propagation of radio waves doesn't require air at all.  Light is another form of electromagnetic radiation, just like radio waves, only of a much higher frequency.  Light travels thru the vacuum of space just fine.  It's mostly the water vapor that's present in the atmosphere that can both bend and/or reflect a radio wave.  That's how weather radar works.  On my last ship we had two different kinds of radars.  One used a much higher frequency than the other.  The lower frequency unit reached out farther and could track vessels 20 to 30 miles out.  The higher frequency radar was better at separating smaller vessels that were 3 to 5 miles out.  A large fleet of small fishing vessels could easily be seen as individual targets.  The disadvantage to the higher frequency radar was that rain from a thunderstorm would also show up and obscure other ships and boats.  Airline pilots used that fact to their advantage because they wanted to see where the rain and thunderstorms are so they could be avoided.  All radars just use pulses of radio waves.  The atmosphere isn't what propagates the signals, but can have an effect on them.  A HF, VHF, or UHF radio uses the very same electromagnetic waves as the radar, only of a lower frequency.  Microwave radios use a frequency similar to a radar.  Radars emit microwave radiation.   

*

Offline BillO

  • *
  • Posts: 274
  • Huh?
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2018, 11:16:55 PM »
I did provide a substitute theory for each point. I guess you missed them. let me provide them to you.

Two different travel distances for different frequencies alternate theory (they are based on the ability of the wave to travel through the atmosphere not the shape of the earth):
 
One does better at traveling through the air than the other. Therefore it travels farther.


Different radio signal travel distances based on time of day alternate theory (different atmospheric conditions are affecting the radio travel distances not the shape of the earth):
 
Since the signals are traveling through the air during the day the air molecules are warmed by the sun.
Sorry, I don't intend to be mean or rude here, but those are not theories.  They are not even hypothesis.  They are merely unsubstantiated statements.

An hypothesis begins with one or more statements, then substantiates them by providing a description of the 'mechanism' involved in fulfilling the statement(s).

So, lets show what I mean by building a bogus hypothesis around your two statements.  I'll edit them a wee bit to make them more compatible so that they can be covered by the same description.

Statement(s):
Radio signals of different frequencies can propagate through air at different rates depending on their frequency.  In addition, temperature changes in the air due to warming by the sun can affect the propagation rate giving different propagation speeds at different times.

Description:
Radio wave interact with the molecular bonds in the constituents of air, predominately nitrogen (N2) and oxygen (O2).  Absorption of the radio signal and subsequent re-emission by the covalent bonds in these molecules both delays and removes energy from the radio signals.  The N2 and O2, having substantially different intrinsic energy levels makes this interaction frequency dependent.  The result is that lower frequency radio signals interact less with the bonds and can therefore be propagated further.  Inherent in the interaction is a delay between the absorption and subsequent re-emission causing higher frequency radio signal to propagate more slowly as well.  Thermal energy in the air will change the intrinsic energy of the molecular bonds in both the N2 and O2 molecules and also reduce the mean-time to spontaneous re-emission of the absorbed signal.


That is an hypothesis.  Now for that to be a theory, you would also need to provide the mathematics that give precise calculations of the described interactions.  Of course, since the above is bogus, there can be no mathematical model.

Does this help in understanding the difference between an unsubstantiated statement, an hypothesis and a theory?  I hope it does.

So, anyway, now that I've explained what I'm asking for I'll ask again.  Can you provide a link to a description or give a description of how Radio signals are propagated and/or affected by air?


 
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Quote from: Tom Bishop - Zetetic Council Member
The moon's orbital path has a diameter of 768,000 km. That is almost one million miles.

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 204
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2018, 01:24:30 AM »
Well, if you are really interested in equations you can see some that were made up by Maxwell, Gauss, Faraday, or Ampere.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_wave_equation.  These guys did all their work well over 100 years ago and the results of those equations are verified everyday.  They are an adequate description to just how electromagnetic waves behave.  How good is your calculus?  If you've had 4 or 5 semesters in college you are all set.  If you want something short and easy just see http://www.tpub.com/neets/book10/40j.htm.  All I know is what I learned working on radios for more than 50 years, and  my many semesters in college studying mathematics.  I was just trying to distill all that down in a short explanation of how radio waves can be influenced by weather and stay away from all the equations that 99% of the people won't understand.  Mostly radio waves always travel at the speed of light. Air has little to do with the actual propagation of electromagnetic waves as radios work just fine in outer space where there's no air.  Light (just another electromagnetic wave) propagates just fine in space.  I don't think that there's too much left that's unclear or unsubstantiated. If you need more then consider that radio waves can have effects on things in their path.  Just try putting a cat inside a microwave oven.  The cat will be exposed to microwaves and the results will be interesting.  I always had to watch my exposure to microwave radiation when working around radars.  The biggest risk was getting cataracts in my eyes.  People get sun burned.  That's just another form of electromagnetic radiation.  The risk is less on a cloudy day, but doesn't go away completely.  Of course radio waves will be effected by the rain and moisture in the air. Any radio system no matter what frequency can be influenced by the earth's atmosphere and can easily be noticed at times.  The sun can also have an effect as it excites the ionosphere.  The sun spots run in roughly 11 year cycles.  I was just talking with another amateur radio operator the other day and he was complaining about the sun spot cycle being at the low this year.  That fact has an effect on the propagation of HF radio signals.  All of this only indirectly relates to the subject matter of this thread. 

*

Offline BillO

  • *
  • Posts: 274
  • Huh?
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2018, 03:09:55 PM »
Ronj,

I know how radio works, and I know the math.  What I don't know is how iamcpc's concept of radio works.  I would like him to give me at least an hypothesis of how his concept of radio works so I can better understand what he is trying to say.  However, it seems that all he has to offer are some as yet unsubstantiated claims.

I'd be willing to bet that iamcpc is not going to look up the work of Maxwell, Gauss, Hertz, Faraday, Browne, Ampere, Coulomb, Voltaire, Ohm, Kirchhoff, Wien, Marconi, Gilbert, Boyle, Bose, Lesage, Galvani, Volta, Cavendish, Orstead, Poisson, Henry, Lenz, Jacobi, or any of the hundreds of other physicists, engineers and mathematicians that had a hand in developing electromagnetic theory.  None of them will provide any confirmation of his worldview.

I got banned for 3 days for suggesting someone bone up on real theory.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Quote from: Tom Bishop - Zetetic Council Member
The moon's orbital path has a diameter of 768,000 km. That is almost one million miles.

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 204
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2018, 04:27:55 PM »
We are on the same page there.  This whole thing is like a couple of boxers getting ready for a big fight.  Both sides talk 'smack' and try to build excitement and a paying audience.  Eventually, the boxers have to enter the ring and do their thing. The result may be scripted, or may not.  I have proposed my view of FET.  If the paradigm works then VHF, UHF, and microwave communications should offer a whole lot more range because the signals won't have to deal with the curvature of the earth.  The current installed systems utilize tall towers to enhance service area.  Just look at what the TV stations put up.  Years ago my first 'real' job was as a transmitter engineer at one of the local TV stations.  I sat under a 1000 foot tower and baby sat  TV and FM transmitters.  The initial cost and the maintenance of that tower was substantial.  With the FET paradigm you should be able to get the same service area with a tower at 250 feet.  It could even be 100 feet but we live in an area with lots of hills and valleys.  The round earth folks have made their moves and have put up extensive radio networks based on all the disadvantages of the round earth theory. Now it's time for the FET folks to stop talking and start putting up their VHF, UHF, and microwave systems with lower power and lower towers and save a bunch of money.  That advantage should drive prices a lot lower.  It's time to stop talking theory and start building real systems.  Everyone will quickly find out what will really work in the real world.  Personally I have known all my life on which side to place my bet.     

Re: Amateur radio shows the earth is round
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2018, 04:52:27 PM »
RonJ You answering questions intended for Flat Earthers gives them an excuse to not answer themselves. It's unclear what your goal is, given that you don't even disagree with the person who asks the question. It is honestly annoying.
Where does Earth Not a Globe say that all beliefs contrary to the Scriptures are necessarily wrong?  ???