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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2018, 07:50:30 PM »
Thork still doesn’t understand the new covenant. It’s so cute.
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Offline Snupes

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2018, 08:05:44 PM »
So what was the consensus on the meaning of

Quote from: Matthew 5:17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I've heard it argued that it means you're still meant to follow all the Old Testament laws and I've heard it argued the opposite.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2018, 08:11:42 PM »
So what was the consensus on the meaning of

Quote from: Matthew 5:17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I've heard it argued that it means you're still meant to follow all the Old Testament laws and I've heard it argued the opposite.

The easiest answer is that "it depends". A few Christian sects believe the Old Testament is still in play, while most others believe it was entire superseded by the New Testament. You'll find very few kosher Christians or ones that busy themselves trying to avoid clothes with multiple kinds of fiber in them.

I think the only thing everyone agrees on abiding by is the ten commandments. Everything else will just vary based on a whole host of theological fractures.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 08:14:04 PM by Rushy »

Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2018, 02:32:01 PM »
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-48&version=NIV

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 06:51:17 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2018, 11:49:55 PM »
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-48&version=NIV

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

This is talking about taking personal revenge or retaliating over an insult. And slap on the cheek was (and still is in many cases) an insult, not an assault.

Quote
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

You can love and even forgive someone and still punish them for what they did. For those who have children, your child decided to draw on your wall, you can still love him and yet punish him for his actions.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2018, 12:01:52 AM »
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-48&version=NIV

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

This is talking about taking personal revenge or retaliating over an insult. And slap on the cheek was (and still is in many cases) an insult, not an assault.

What about the rest of the passage?  "41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles." sounds more like kidnapping and slavery than an insult.  If these are Jesus' words being quoted, then surely he didn't sit there and go through how you should behave in every case; the message, however, is obvious.  Revenge and retribution should not be part of your life. Transform antagonism, violence and hatred in to acts of kindness and charity.
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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2018, 06:28:47 AM »
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-48&version=NIV

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

This is talking about taking personal revenge or retaliating over an insult. And slap on the cheek was (and still is in many cases) an insult, not an assault.

What about the rest of the passage?  "41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles." sounds more like kidnapping and slavery than an insult.  If these are Jesus' words being quoted, then surely he didn't sit there and go through how you should behave in every case; the message, however, is obvious.  Revenge and retribution should not be part of your life. Transform antagonism, violence and hatred in to acts of kindness and charity.

That passage was in reference to when the Roman soldiers were tired, they would off their equipment on someone and have them walk at most a mile (per Roman law) with them. This was in a time when if you did try to retaliate against Romans, you will be crushed.
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth"

Scripture, science, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2018, 11:12:43 AM »
So much more than an insult. Tyranny.
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2018, 11:39:47 AM »
Jesus was clearly a bit of an arse. Sure, he had a small band of loyal followers, but even the Jews didn't like him much. He was an extremist.

Quote from: John 18:38-40
38“What is truth?” Pilate asked. And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, “I find no basis for a charge against Him. 39But it is your custom that I release to you one prisoner at the Passover. So then, do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?”…40“Not this man,” they shouted, “but Barabbas!”

So given the chance to free Jesus, the Jewish public that knew him went "Erm, no. No, we don't want Jesus freed. That robber, Barrabas, he's a nasty villain but he's more likeable. Could you free him instead of the innocent Jesus?". I mean think about that. Pilate hasn't even got anything to charge Jesus with. And everyone is still like, "No, don't let him go. We really don't like him. Innocent or not, we'd like to see him crucified." That's the Jews saying that. Not the Romans. The Romans seem happy enough to let him go.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2018, 11:52:18 AM »
What does the likeability of Jesus have to do with anything that has been discussed?
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