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Offline Baby Thork

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Pope decries death penalty
« on: August 22, 2018, 12:07:05 AM »
So the Pope has declared that the death penalty is unacceptable in all cases.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45042130

What a prize idiot!

Christianity is founded on the death penalty. Without the death penalty, Jesus Christ can't die for our sins to save humanity. The logo of the church is the cross! People make the sign of the death penalty every time they pray.

This is what happens when you walk away from traditional Christian values and join the Liberal bandwagon. Zero credibility for this one.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2018, 12:11:06 AM »
Pretty much every country on the planet still uses the death penalty one way or another. However, it seems Western nations began believing that sentencing someone to die inside a concrete box after several decades is somehow more humane than sentencing them to die while spending a minute with a rope around their neck.

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2018, 12:16:20 AM »
That concrete box has a playstation, easy access to drugs, 3 square meals a day, a gym, TV, educational resources, clean water, heating, a laundry service and as much sex as you want if you aren't fussy. Its hardly a death sentence. It's more like a gated community.

Anyway, this thread is about the Pope throwing all Christian morals out of the window one by one in order that he can appear woke.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2018, 12:19:53 AM »
That concrete box has an xbox, easy access to drugs, 3 square meals a day, a gym, TV, educational resources, clean water, heating, a laundry service and as much sex as you want if you aren't fussy. Its hardly a death sentence. It's more like a gated community.

Anyway, this thread is about the Pope throwing all Christian morals out of the window one by one in order that he can appear woke.

A comfortable life without freedom is no life at all. What you basically stated was an argument in favor of slavery, as long as the slave has a comfortable life.

Also, the death penalty doesn't really have anything to do with Christianity. Christianity doesn't celebrate the death of Christ itself, it's viewed as a necessary mechanism for freeing the rest of humanity from original sin. It's not supportive of the death penalty, as far as I know. Perhaps you should point out some relevant scripture to show why  you think it does support the death penalty.

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2018, 12:32:16 AM »
A comfortable life without freedom is no life at all. What you basically stated was an argument in favor of slavery, as long as the slave has a comfortable life.
And slavery ... we call it spending time at her majesty's pleasure, is a form of punishment, but it isn't a death sentence.

Also, the death penalty doesn't really have anything to do with Christianity. Christianity doesn't celebrate the death of Christ itself, it's viewed as a necessary mechanism for freeing the rest of humanity from original sin. It's not supportive of the death penalty, as far as I know. Perhaps you should point out some relevant scripture to show why  you think it does support the death penalty.

Well, first I would point to the day Jesus is crucified. It is a celebration called 'Good Friday'. Now that sounds like a pretty ringing endorsement to me. It isn't called 'bad friday' or 'inadmissible under all circumstances friday'.

Also God speaks of 'an eye for an eye'. So if you murder someone, you get the death penalty.
God is also omnipotent. He must know his son will get crucified, and yet He makes no effort in the old testament to get people to stop doing it. God sees the death penalty as a necessary evil.

In fact God demands the death penalty regularly.

The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), and several other crimes.

I don't think the Pope can really talk to God, because if he had asked Him, God would have told the Pope to wind his neck in.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 12:38:35 AM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2018, 12:43:21 AM »
The Old Testament also proposed that a father sell his daughter to her rapist because she's damaged goods and "you break it, you buy it" rules apply. Do you also agree with that preposterous idea?

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2018, 12:56:56 AM »
The Old Testament also proposed that a father sell his daughter to her rapist because she's damaged goods and "you break it, you buy it" rules apply. Do you also agree with that preposterous idea?

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm not the Pope. I don't have to agree with any of it. But you asked me if God was in favour of the death penalty. And He most surely is.

For murder
Quote from: Exodus 20:12
Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death.

For kidnapping
Quote from: Exodus 20:16
Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

For bestiality
Quote from: Exodus 20:16
Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death.

for adultery
Quote from: Leviticus 20:10
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

for homosexuality
Quote from: Leviticus 20:10
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

for being a false prophet
Quote from: Deuteronomy 13:5
That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God

for prostitution and rape
Quote from: Deuteronomy 22:24
you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife.


God is really very clear on the death penalty. He likes it a lot. And as Pope you can't say the death penalty is 'inadmissible in all cases' when your boss demands it for about a dozen different crimes.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2018, 01:22:42 AM »
While it may be true that the bible at some point supported the death penalty for certain acts, I think you're forgetting that in Catholicism, the Pope is literally the voice of God. Therefore, if the Pope says something is the way it is now, then that's how it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2018, 03:44:17 AM »
Christianity is founded on the death penalty. Without the death penalty, Jesus Christ can't die for our sins to save humanity. The logo of the church is the cross! People make the sign of the death penalty every time they pray.

I can't for the life of me wrap my head around this logic. Thousands of years ago, a specific execution played a key role in a religion's formation, and therefore, the religion should support the death penalty out of principle?
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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2018, 03:53:33 AM »
Couple things Thork faiks at.


1. The bible is full of people saying stuff.  People who are not God.  Thus, we can't say those bible verses are God's will unless God spoke them.


2. The entire point of Jesus dying is to make the entire rulebook of the old testemate invalid.  A fresh slate.  Clean start.  So anything as a rule before Jesus died, may no longer be valid.


Finally: Jesus died of his own choice.  He could have asked to be saved.  He also knew of Judias's betrayal.  But he didn't act either way.  He chose to die, which is basically suicide, not the death penalty.

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2018, 09:10:55 AM »
Couple things Thork faiks at.
When you say that, you need to make points that counter mine. Not nonsensical ones.

1. The bible is full of people saying stuff.  People who are not God.  Thus, we can't say those bible verses are God's will unless God spoke them.
Most of the quotes I gave are God speaking to people. The entire old testament when read aloud is followed by "This is the word of God" to which the congregation respond "Thanks be to God".

2. The entire point of Jesus dying is to make the entire rulebook of the old testemate invalid.  A fresh slate.  Clean start.  So anything as a rule before Jesus died, may no longer be valid.
Stop making things up. You have obviously never been forced to attend Sunday school. Two thirds of the bible are not invalid because of an event in a latter chapter. Otherwise why make people read 1000 pages of stuff that no longer applies?

Finally: Jesus died of his own choice.  He could have asked to be saved.  He also knew of Judias's betrayal.  But he didn't act either way.  He chose to die, which is basically suicide, not the death penalty.
No one ever said Jesus committed suicide. Being nailed to a cross is not suicide.

In fact Jesus tries to weasel out of it, and when that fails he tries to pull a few strings with the man upstairs.
Quote from: "John 12:27
Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
God however, is having none of it. Because God likes the death penalty a lot.

I can't for the life of me wrap my head around this logic. Thousands of years ago, a specific execution played a key role in a religion's formation, and therefore, the religion should support the death penalty out of principle?
Yes. It is called Christianity. Christ is the lead character. You can't just keep throwing the bits of the Bible you don't like away, otherwise what is the point in the bible? You have to accept it all, even the bits you don't like. That's called faith. You have to trust God is right. There have been some huge walk backs from the church in recent times, including permitting homosexuality and usury. Basically, the church is happy to bend like a reed in the wind when it comes to the political zeitgeist. The Vatican lent the Nazis huge amounts of money for WW2 for example. Now it has come over all liberal ... despite how unChristian a liberal mindset is. Christians are conservative. The Bible is fairly right wing.

This Pope is not representing the Church. He is pushing his own political ideologies. Condemning the death sentence is the biggest rejection of the bible I think I have ever seen from the church. The Cardinals need to get stabby in the conclave and select a more appropriate Holy See.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 09:19:02 AM by Baby Thork »
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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2018, 01:36:20 PM »
that christ rendered the old testament inert is dogma in pretty much every christian faith.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2018, 02:03:02 PM »
Yes, it’s called the new and everlasting covenant, as in replacing the covenant of the Old Testament and this was affirmed by Pope John Paul II in Catholicism.
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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2018, 06:53:51 PM »
Condemning the death sentence is the biggest rejection of the bible I think I have ever seen from the church.

 i dont know, i think the fact that they employ a LOT of people to deal and manage with all the cases of child abuse is probably worse.   And that they spend millions a year alone in the USA lobbying to fight the repealing of statute of limitations for child touching.

or the fact they had to create a freaking "Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People"...hey sickos...you dont need a charter...stop touching kids.  pretty simple.  yeah, right here...30 pages about what to do when someone touches a kid:  http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/Charter-for-the-Protection-of-Children-and-Young-People-2018.pdf

can you imagine if your employer had a huge dept of paid employees thats entire job was to review child molestation and pay off there silence.

can you you imagine if your employer released a written publication that explained to you that you shouldnt touch kids?

the whole thing is so messed up...
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 06:57:07 PM by Round Eyes »
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2018, 08:53:51 PM »
The bible is very specific about putting people to death for sleeping with animals, for men sleeping with men, for people sleeping with each other out of wedlock, it isn't even keen on masturbation ... but I can't think of any reference anywhere where God says "thou shalt not touch children". It just isn't there. So the church wanting to abuse children ... doesn't actually seem unCatholic to me. Well, not in the same way as abolishing the death sentence. That is as unCatholic as it gets.
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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2018, 01:08:46 AM »
The bible is very specific about putting people to death for sleeping with animals, for men sleeping with men, for people sleeping with each other out of wedlock, it isn't even keen on masturbation ... but I can't think of any reference anywhere where God says "thou shalt not touch children". It just isn't there. So the church wanting to abuse children ... doesn't actually seem unCatholic to me. Well, not in the same way as abolishing the death sentence. That is as unCatholic as it gets.

So you're stance is you believe the bible is pro rape?  And adolescent at that....
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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2018, 03:40:13 AM »
I can't for the life of me wrap my head around this logic. Thousands of years ago, a specific execution played a key role in a religion's formation, and therefore, the religion should support the death penalty out of principle?
Yes. It is called Christianity. Christ is the lead character.

What does that have to do with supporting the death penalty out of principle? They're not taking a stance on whether or not Christ should be executed. Christ was already executed. Also:

Quote
In fact Jesus tries to weasel out of it, and when that fails he tries to pull a few strings with the man upstairs.
Quote from: "John 12:27
Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
God however, is having none of it. Because God likes the death penalty a lot.

That is blatantly misleading.

https://biblehub.com/john/12-27.htm

This is Jesus reaffirming his commitment to die by pointing out that it was the very reason he was born in the first place. It's the exact opposite of what you're claiming it means. You're quote-mining Jesus to make him look like a coward, and you really ought to feel bad about that.
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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2018, 10:48:01 AM »
So you're stance is you believe the bible is pro rape?  And adolescent at that....
The bible is not pro rape. You get the death penalty for that. Its very clear.

But there is nothing I can find about paedophilia.

What does that have to do with supporting the death penalty out of principle? They're not taking a stance on whether or not Christ should be executed. Christ was already executed.
The bible gives clear instructions on what crimes get the death penalty. This notion that the instant the new testament comes about, the old one is obsolete is nonsense. Many of the things in the old testament haven't even happened yet. Such as the anti-christ. (whose followers we are supposed to put to death after Armageddon so they can be judged by God). The second coming of Jesus. The Great Tribulation. You can't say the old testament has no validity when books like Revelations are yet to play out.

 
This is Jesus reaffirming his commitment to die by pointing out that it was the very reason he was born in the first place.
We are all born to die, Honk.

It's the exact opposite of what you're claiming it means. You're quote-mining Jesus to make him look like a coward, and you really ought to feel bad about that.
Jesus tries to weasel out of crucifixion many times in the bible.

Quote from: Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. ...

Quote from: Luke 22:41-42
And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

It is very clear God wants Jesus to face the dealth penalty, and Jesus is understandably not quite so keen on this idea. So Jesus questions God's wisdom. A pretty stupid move because God isn't likely to change his mind about that. He's likely already sold front row tickets to all the Angels for a box office execution that will be talked about for millennia.
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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2018, 12:13:14 PM »
Thork, you don't think banging pre teen boys is rape?
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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: Pope decries death penalty
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2018, 12:47:16 PM »
Well rape is a legal definition. For example in Sweden it is rape to have sex with a woman even if she consents, if you are very powerful and can be shown to have influence over her. See Julian Assange.

Now raping a child ... well that is difficult because what if that child is your property? You can't be accused of raping your own slave for example. You own their body and you get to consent for them. It is likely at the time, that children had few rights, there was no legal age of consent back then. 610 years later the Prophet Mohammed takes an 9 year old girl as a wife and has sex with her so I'm not sure the same bunch of sand dwellers are going to worry about having sex with children 610 years earlier. Jesus is unlikely to bat an eyelid at that.

I'm not sure that you can rape a boy when those laws were made. If you rape a woman, it is rape because she is someone else's property. Her husband's or her father's. But boys aren't owned unless they are someone else's slave. Which is why I think the bible makes no mention of it. Its ok. So chasing down priests for this ... well they are only following the holy book.

Edit:
On further inspection ... you can't rape a boy because that is gay and God hates gays. He wants them executed.

But you are allowed to have sex with underage girls, so long as they aren't owned.
Quote from: Numbers 31:1-18
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males ... And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Quote from: Judges 21:7-11
And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh.

Possession of women is important. You want a fresh unused one first hand (a virgin), and you can buy them, take them as the spoils of war or trade them. But you can't drive another man's car, for want of a better expression. Then its rape.
Quote from: Exodus 21:7-10
if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant ... If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed ... If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 12:58:31 PM by Baby Thork »
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