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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2018, 08:07:18 PM »
The one sentence answer is "bullets suffer from gyroscopic precession, aircraft do not"
Right, because the gyroscopes in aircraft are constantly being adjusted to compensate for gyroscopic precession.
Yes. Have you still not figured out how to use google yet?

Quote from: http://www.flight-mechanic.com/inertial-navigation-system-insinertial-reference-system-irs/
Continuous accurate adjustment to the gyro-stabilized platform to keep it parallel to the Earth’s surface is a key requirement to reduce accumulated error.

That's what an INS computer does. It makes the adjustment calculations.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 09:02:50 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline MCToon

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2018, 09:12:39 PM »
Planes do steer against the Coriolis effect. 
They do not.

Just saying they don't don't mean they don't, this isn't kindergarten.  This is the same trite tactic you always use.  Is Mt. Ranier next to the ocean?  No.  Is there a power line going across Lake Pontchartrain?  Yes.  Does the Coriolis effect exist?  Yes.

The Coriolis effect on a plane is just one of many factors a plane has to correct for.  The sum of all the forces deflects the plane and it gets steered to compensate.

I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline stack

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2018, 09:14:00 PM »
That's what an INS computer does. It makes the adjustment calculations.

Seemingly correct, it does make calculations:

"Earth Rotation
in the same way that a stationary INS detects the Earth’s Rotation to determine its Latitude and Orientation, it also detects this rotation when moving. The final movement detected will be a combination of both the aircraft’s movement and the Earth’s rotation. These errors are small and can be compensated for.

Coriolis
as an aircraft travels from A to B around the globe it actually will follow a curved path (or a series of shorter curved paths). An INS will detect this as turning (a bit like a pendulum swinging out in a turn) and an error can be introduced."

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Inertial_Navigation_System_(INS)

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2018, 09:15:49 PM »
Well I'll ignore McToon because I already explained the solution. Coriolis does NOT effect aircraft (unless you count weather, but not directly).

Stack seems to get it.
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Offline stack

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2018, 10:43:40 PM »
I think the logic here is that the INS/IRS instrument clearly takes into account the earth's rotation along with longitude and latitude to form its calculations. Meaning it's calculation depends, in part, on the fact that the earth rotates. Coriolis is a byproduct, an artifact of earth's rotation. As a subset of the presence of rotation, it is included in its calculations.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2018, 12:01:03 AM »
I think the logic here is that the INS/IRS instrument clearly takes into account the earth's rotation along with longitude and latitude to form its calculations. Meaning it's calculation depends, in part, on the fact that the earth rotates. Coriolis is a byproduct, an artifact of earth's rotation. As a subset of the presence of rotation, it is included in its calculations.

I agree:
Stack seems to get it.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

HorstFue

Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2018, 12:06:11 AM »
The one sentence answer is "bullets suffer from gyroscopic rigidity and precession, aircraft do not"
Ok, but where's "Coriolis"?

Gyroscopic precession is quit a different effect then Coriolis.
Found this http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ABDOC108_GyroscopicAndCoriolis.pdf.
Quote
Picture a spinning object like a bullet or a top. The spinning thing has a ‘spin axis’, about which it’s spinning. If you try to disturb the spin axis by applying a force, or a torque to that axis, the spinning object reacts in a strange way. Rather than simply moving in the direction that you pushed it, the spin axis reacts by moving 90 degrees from the applied force, in the direction of rotation.
This force is generated by the ballistic curve or parabola which dips down the nose of the projectile. The resulting force drives the bullet to the right, if the bullet is spinning right hand. There are also rifles with barrels that spin the bullet left hand, the result is than a deviation to the left.

But nonetheless Gyroscopic precession and Coriolis are tiny effects compared to wind, gravity, air density etc.;also for muzzle velocities of 900 m/s or more for snipper rifles, that's 3 Mach.

I don't think, that any pilot will notice Coriolis effects, because cross winds and tiny imperfections in the symmetry of the aircraft (e.g. thrust of the turbines) will need far far greater corrections.

I tend more to MCToon's conclusions.
Both an airplane and a bullet experience the Coriolis effect.  ...

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Offline J-Man

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2018, 01:23:54 AM »
LMAO I've been shooting for 50 years. To think some imaginary spin is going to effect my 1000 yard shot it preposterous. Tards I tell you.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2018, 06:54:33 PM »
This has been a fun discussion about the effects of Coriolis on man-made objects. My two cent's regarding flying is you'll never see effects of Coriolis on the aircraft. They're there, because it affects all matter of motion not physically connected to the Earth, but it's going to be orders of magnitudes smaller than other inputs you'll need to make. Any kind of crosswind, for example, will require course corrections that would mask whatever kind of deviation Coriolis would cause.

But moving the discussion on a bit, I would still like a Flat Earth answer to what is presumably Coriolis' effect on the weather. Even if we invoke some Celestial tugging like I've seen in other threads, that only accounts for the largest scales of weather. If we zoom in a bit to the mesoscale, we still see the effects of Coriolis. The most obvious example, of course, are hurricanes. Hurricanes are, simplistically, areas of extremely low pressure. Having already established that atmosphere tends to achieve equilibrium, what we would see is a wind pattern where all vectors are pointing radially inward. This is not what we see in real life though. Coriolis adds another force that pull all wind vectors to the right. Without the Coriolis effect there would be no rotation, no eye wall, and no hurricane.

The one argument I've seen is that gears can spin in opposite directions? Which is fine in the sense that allows for opposite wind circulations on the global scale but hurricanes don't exist on the boundary of global wind patterns. In fact, they have a hard time existing closer than ten degrees north or south of the equator precisely because the effects of Coriolis are so small. They are created well away from the "gear interface" which would cause opposite rotation.

And regardless, we see these effects in sub-tropical cyclones as well, and those are nowhere near the opposing gears of the equator.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2018, 08:27:07 PM »
This has been a fun discussion about the effects of Coriolis on man-made objects. My two cent's regarding flying is you'll never see effects of Coriolis on the aircraft. They're there, because it affects all matter of motion not physically connected to the Earth, but it's going to be orders of magnitudes smaller than other inputs you'll need to make. Any kind of crosswind, for example, will require course corrections that would mask whatever kind of deviation Coriolis would cause.

But moving the discussion on a bit, I would still like a Flat Earth answer to what is presumably Coriolis' effect on the weather. Even if we invoke some Celestial tugging like I've seen in other threads, that only accounts for the largest scales of weather. If we zoom in a bit to the mesoscale, we still see the effects of Coriolis. The most obvious example, of course, are hurricanes. Hurricanes are, simplistically, areas of extremely low pressure. Having already established that atmosphere tends to achieve equilibrium, what we would see is a wind pattern where all vectors are pointing radially inward. This is not what we see in real life though. Coriolis adds another force that pull all wind vectors to the right. Without the Coriolis effect there would be no rotation, no eye wall, and no hurricane.

The one argument I've seen is that gears can spin in opposite directions? Which is fine in the sense that allows for opposite wind circulations on the global scale but hurricanes don't exist on the boundary of global wind patterns. In fact, they have a hard time existing closer than ten degrees north or south of the equator precisely because the effects of Coriolis are so small. They are created well away from the "gear interface" which would cause opposite rotation.

And regardless, we see these effects in sub-tropical cyclones as well, and those are nowhere near the opposing gears of the equator.

Excellent job steering this thread in a useful direction.

So, how do hurricanes only spin one way in the northern hemi(sphere/plane) and the opposite direction in the southern hemi(sphere/plane)?

The RE model predicts this because of the spinning of the earth.  It also predicts reduced effect near the equator.

I haven't seen any FE models thar offer anything realistic to predict this behavior.  Gears don't explain it, it's just a vague idea that falls apart under minimal scrutiny.  I've really put my thoughts to this challenge, I cannot come up with anything.  How about if the flat earth disc spins?  No, that would only explain one hemiplane.  The Dual Earth model could make a little progress if you suggest both planes are spinning, but I haven't seen that as part of the theory.  The bi-polar flat earth map is even more difficult.  Maybe Tom can offer something aligning with a bi-polar model?
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
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Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2018, 10:40:54 PM »
In the Bi-Polar model the stars are rotating in one direction in the Northern Hemiplane and in the opposite direction in the Southern Hemiplane, like a set of interlocking gears. Celestial Gravitation encourages winds in those areas to generally move in clockwise or counter-clockwise wind system patterns.


« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 11:06:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2018, 10:54:28 PM »
Without even getting into the claim of celestial gravitation (presumably we should be able to measure a stronger force in the plane of the Milk Way since there's so many close stars than outside of the plane?) that still doesn't account for mesoscale events like hurricanes. In order to account for that, you would need tiny pockets of celestial gravity rotating and moving with the hurricane.

Edited for Grammar

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Offline J-Man

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2018, 11:03:16 PM »
Winds come from the 4 corners of the flat earth. When lives are at stake you would think that The US Marine Corp Sniper training would say, hey ! When you're trying to kill a bad guy at a mile and a half because your brothers are pinned down you should probably aim 2-3 inches this or that away depending on where the hell on earth you are to kill el subject ! Two-3 inches will translate into another county in long range shooting. Sorry fakers, doesn't exist, isn't taught, enjoy more bullsheet.

Here's a sniper manual.

 https://archive.org/details/milmanual-fmfm-1-3b-sniping-u.s.-marine-corps
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2018, 11:51:08 PM »
Winds come from the 4 corners of the flat earth. When lives are at stake you would think that The US Marine Corp Sniper training would say, hey ! When you're trying to kill a bad guy at a mile and a half because your brothers are pinned down you should probably aim 2-3 inches this or that away depending on where the hell on earth you are to kill el subject ! Two-3 inches will translate into another county in long range shooting. Sorry fakers, doesn't exist, isn't taught, enjoy more bullsheet.

Here's a sniper manual.

 https://archive.org/details/milmanual-fmfm-1-3b-sniping-u.s.-marine-corps

J-Man, thank you for bringing up this critical point.  The U.S. Military has taken it into account and published tables to adjust trajectories for long distances.  One example can be found on page 102 of this Cannon Artillery manual:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/826735.pdf
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2018, 11:55:12 PM »
Winds come from the 4 corners of the flat earth. When lives are at stake you would think that The US Marine Corp Sniper training would say, hey ! When you're trying to kill a bad guy at a mile and a half because your brothers are pinned down you should probably aim 2-3 inches this or that away depending on where the hell on earth you are to kill el subject ! Two-3 inches will translate into another county in long range shooting. Sorry fakers, doesn't exist, isn't taught, enjoy more bullsheet.

Here's a sniper manual.

 https://archive.org/details/milmanual-fmfm-1-3b-sniping-u.s.-marine-corps

That manual is from 1991. Also, 2-3 inches is the bullet's drift, not the muzzle correction.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2018, 12:07:56 AM »
Winds come from the 4 corners of the flat earth. When lives are at stake you would think that The US Marine Corp Sniper training would say, hey ! When you're trying to kill a bad guy at a mile and a half because your brothers are pinned down you should probably aim 2-3 inches this or that away depending on where the hell on earth you are to kill el subject ! Two-3 inches will translate into another county in long range shooting. Sorry fakers, doesn't exist, isn't taught, enjoy more bullsheet.

Here's a sniper manual.

 https://archive.org/details/milmanual-fmfm-1-3b-sniping-u.s.-marine-corps

That manual is from 1991. Also, 2-3 inches is the bullet's drift, not the muzzle correction.

Yes, before 1991 the axis didn't exist, the giant didn't start the ball spinning and NASA didn't come up with Neil babys oblate spheroid. Just kinda make it up as you go is best I guess. Now let me go get a cannon.

2-3 inches I was using as a random distance for scope work. A quality rifle off the shelf with quality ammo will shoot 1 MOA= Minute of Angle meaning you miss the bullseye by 1" for every 100 yards of shooting distance. So 1000 yard shot under good conditions would be a 10" miss. Impossible really because wind direction will probably change multiple times during its flight to target, thus a trained spotter. Spin drift will play a key role also as will height, weight, co-efficiency of the projectile, muzzle velocity, grains and type of powder, barrel length and rifling, cold bore vs warm one. So many things come into play but I assure you, Neils spinning pear ain't one of them. Good luck and good bowling.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 12:30:23 AM by J-Man »
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2018, 12:25:07 AM »
Just saying you can't say they don't teach it now if you're quoting a manual from 1991. Most accurate you could be would be to say they didn't teach it in 1991. I wouldn't be surprised if they stopped using it by 1993. Now, unsurprisingly, we seem to be stuck on guns again. Would anyone like to try and take a stab at 80% of the applications Coriolis effect is used for and try to come up with a good Flat Earth weather model that doesn't need Coriolis?

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Offline J-Man

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2018, 01:41:49 AM »
Just saying you can't say they don't teach it now if you're quoting a manual from 1991. Most accurate you could be would be to say they didn't teach it in 1991. I wouldn't be surprised if they stopped using it by 1993. Now, unsurprisingly, we seem to be stuck on guns again. Would anyone like to try and take a stab at 80% of the applications Coriolis effect is used for and try to come up with a good Flat Earth weather model that doesn't need Coriolis?

Let me put the latest long distance record shot in perspective for y0u. It was almost 4000 yards (2 miles) with a 50 cal. It got doped probably at least 40 inches left with no wind just using spin drift. The round was airborne for almost 10 seconds. The sniper aimed his weapon high the height of a 60 story building for drop. You catch that? 600 feet above the target. And you want me to believe his spotter said hold dead on cuzz the earth is going to rotate 10 inches and wind will make up the other 30.

Sorry they most likely lobbed em in for some time to dope it close and got LUCKY !
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2018, 02:12:51 AM »
Just saying you can't say they don't teach it now if you're quoting a manual from 1991. Most accurate you could be would be to say they didn't teach it in 1991. I wouldn't be surprised if they stopped using it by 1993. Now, unsurprisingly, we seem to be stuck on guns again. Would anyone like to try and take a stab at 80% of the applications Coriolis effect is used for and try to come up with a good Flat Earth weather model that doesn't need Coriolis?

Let me put the latest long distance record shot in perspective for y0u. It was almost 4000 yards (2 miles) with a 50 cal. It got doped probably at least 40 inches left with no wind just using spin drift. The round was airborne for almost 10 seconds. The sniper aimed his weapon high the height of a 60 story building for drop. You catch that? 600 feet above the target. And you want me to believe his spotter said hold dead on cuzz the earth is going to rotate 10 inches and wind will make up the other 30.

Sorry they most likely lobbed em in for some time to dope it close and got LUCKY !

This is all very interesting. I don't profess to be an expert in long distance shooting, and in fact I didn't even bring this up in my original post. I'll let someone else handle the shooting questions since the farthest I shot was 100 yards. This is probably one of the fringe applications of utilizing the Coriolis Force but everyone always brings it up because it's usually the closest to home for them. My question for you is do you have an answer for my weather questions.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: The Coriolis Effect
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2018, 02:56:07 AM »
Just saying you can't say they don't teach it now if you're quoting a manual from 1991. Most accurate you could be would be to say they didn't teach it in 1991. I wouldn't be surprised if they stopped using it by 1993. Now, unsurprisingly, we seem to be stuck on guns again. Would anyone like to try and take a stab at 80% of the applications Coriolis effect is used for and try to come up with a good Flat Earth weather model that doesn't need Coriolis?

Let me put the latest long distance record shot in perspective for y0u. It was almost 4000 yards (2 miles) with a 50 cal. It got doped probably at least 40 inches left with no wind just using spin drift. The round was airborne for almost 10 seconds. The sniper aimed his weapon high the height of a 60 story building for drop. You catch that? 600 feet above the target. And you want me to believe his spotter said hold dead on cuzz the earth is going to rotate 10 inches and wind will make up the other 30.

Sorry they most likely lobbed em in for some time to dope it close and got LUCKY !

This is all very interesting. I don't profess to be an expert in long distance shooting, and in fact I didn't even bring this up in my original post. I'll let someone else handle the shooting questions since the farthest I shot was 100 yards. This is probably one of the fringe applications of utilizing the Coriolis Force but everyone always brings it up because it's usually the closest to home for them. My question for you is do you have an answer for my weather questions.

I can't answer that because I don't believe it, it's not true. Biblical accounts that God controls the weather and uses it for many purposes. Obviously a flat earth has no Coriolis garbage. The winds come from Angels at the four corners of the Earth. Almost all religions describe the flood and it's sure hard to explain sea shells at 10,000 or 15,000 foot mountains if there wasn't one. Eternal life is a loooong time, respect the wind, the earthquakes and brimstone's, they can be killers, and rightfully so.......
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.