At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood? I mean... on the upper fora? Let's say there's a conversation like this:

Alice: The sky is green
Bob: No it's blue
Alice: You can't prove that.
Bob: Yes I can. Here's a photo of the sky. I sampled the colors on photoshop. The average color of the sky was (23, 74, 131). That's much bluer than it is green.
Alice: You used photoshop to edit that photo. You admitted it right there!
Bob: No, I just used it to find the exact color. Why don't you send us a photo of the sky and we'll test it.
crickets chirping

1 week later
Alice: The sky is green
Bob: No it isn't, I told you already
Alice: You made that up. It's all lies and photoshop.

Now at this point in my story, Alice is lying, and I think Bob ought to be well within his rights to say so publicly and proudly. Alice knows very well that what she's saying is false. We have the previous conversation as proof. Closing her eyes and refusing to accept the proof doesn't mean she should be allowed to continue saying it doesn't exist. She's seen it, and we all know it. Continuing to say she hasn't seen it is a lie.

What do the rules say? What should the rules say?

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2018, 09:09:39 AM »
Bob needs to get his act together and prove the sky is blue using something other than a photo which could have been doctored at the outset. Bob is being intellectually lazy, because there is more than one way to prove the sky is blue. He could also go some way to prove the sky isn't green if proving that it is blue is too hard. Otherwise ...

Quote from: bob
The earth is round

Quote from: alice
Ok shut the servers down

Quote from: bob
But I wanted to discuss science with people  :'(

Bob needs to stop dead-ending the conversation, if Bob wants to have a conversation.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 09:14:28 AM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2018, 10:42:14 AM »
This is unresolvable. You may well think that Alice is lying. Your friends may be certain that Alice is lying. But there are plenty of other explanations, and it's completely possible that Alice is sincerely holding on to her conviction. Remember that your unconscious biases are very likely to influence your assessment of what someone else might be thinking.

Alice may completely disagree with your assessment, and she's in no way obliged to respond to Bob in the original thread. She would be right to disagree, too, since Bob's method can be used to prove that the sky is red, purple, orange, black, and if you insist - green.


The average colour of the sky here is (52, 84, 37) - indeed, Bob's method proves the sky is green under certain circumstances.

An unfinished conversation is not a concession on anyone's part.

The rules don't prohibit you from accusing someone of lying. Of course, it's unlikely to advance the conversation, but if you've reached the point where you suspect someone is openly lying to you, then the conversation is probably not advancing either way. My personal recommendation would be to back away and stop arguing with someone you find dishonest - but I've also been guilty of not doing that before.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 10:49:58 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline iamcpc

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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2018, 07:14:40 PM »
At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood? I mean... on the upper fora? Let's say there's a conversation like this:

Alice: The sky is green
Bob: No it's blue
Alice: You can't prove that.
Bob: Yes I can. Here's a photo of the sky. I sampled the colors on photoshop. The average color of the sky was (23, 74, 131). That's much bluer than it is green.
Alice: You used photoshop to edit that photo. You admitted it right there!
Bob: No, I just used it to find the exact color. Why don't you send us a photo of the sky and we'll test it.
crickets chirping

1 week later
Alice: The sky is green
Bob: No it isn't, I told you already
Alice: You made that up. It's all lies and photoshop.

Now at this point in my story, Alice is lying, and I think Bob ought to be well within his rights to say so publicly and proudly. Alice knows very well that what she's saying is false. We have the previous conversation as proof. Closing her eyes and refusing to accept the proof doesn't mean she should be allowed to continue saying it doesn't exist. She's seen it, and we all know it. Continuing to say she hasn't seen it is a lie.

What do the rules say? What should the rules say?

I don't think you can say that Alice is lying. Maybe Alice has some severe color blind issues and what you perceive to be blue she perceives to be more of a green with hints of blue. I'm all too familiar with this because (as a result of my color blindness) i frequently will see something that I see as color A and someone will say that it's color B.

If you look at a flower and say it's green and I look at that same flower and call it yellow i'm not lying. My eyes, optic nerve, and brain have decided that this cloud of electrical signals is a yellow flower.

At any point in a debate any person can call any evidence presented by the other side as false, fake, or a lie. Because of that progress is minimal in terms of reaching an agreement about the color of the sky.

This is further compounded when something like a flower or a sky may change color under certain lighting. I went to Hawaii and saw a sunset there and I perceived the sky to be pink, yellow, red, orange, purple while my wife (who's not colorblind) saw a light green instead of yellow.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 07:27:57 PM by iamcpc »

Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2018, 09:21:50 PM »
This is unresolvable. You may well think that Alice is lying. Your friends may be certain that Alice is lying. But there are plenty of other explanations, and it's completely possible that Alice is sincerely holding on to her conviction. Remember that your unconscious biases are very likely to influence your assessment of what someone else might be thinking.

Alice may completely disagree with your assessment, and she's in no way obliged to respond to Bob in the original thread. She would be right to disagree, too, since Bob's method can be used to prove that the sky is red, purple, orange, black, and if you insist - green.


The average colour of the sky here is (52, 84, 37) - indeed, Bob's method proves the sky is green under certain circumstances.

An unfinished conversation is not a concession on anyone's part.

The rules don't prohibit you from accusing someone of lying. Of course, it's unlikely to advance the conversation, but if you've reached the point where you suspect someone is openly lying to you, then the conversation is probably not advancing either way. My personal recommendation would be to back away and stop arguing with someone you find dishonest - but I've also been guilty of not doing that before.


What are the circumstances that earth is flat?

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2018, 10:23:27 PM »
This is unresolvable. You may well think that Alice is lying. Your friends may be certain that Alice is lying. But there are plenty of other explanations, and it's completely possible that Alice is sincerely holding on to her conviction. Remember that your unconscious biases are very likely to influence your assessment of what someone else might be thinking.

Alice may completely disagree with your assessment, and she's in no way obliged to respond to Bob in the original thread. She would be right to disagree, too, since Bob's method can be used to prove that the sky is red, purple, orange, black, and if you insist - green.


The average colour of the sky here is (52, 84, 37) - indeed, Bob's method proves the sky is green under certain circumstances.

An unfinished conversation is not a concession on anyone's part.

The rules don't prohibit you from accusing someone of lying. Of course, it's unlikely to advance the conversation, but if you've reached the point where you suspect someone is openly lying to you, then the conversation is probably not advancing either way. My personal recommendation would be to back away and stop arguing with someone you find dishonest - but I've also been guilty of not doing that before.


What are the circumstances that earth is flat?

You'll get your answers if you read the wiki and the fora.  You'll also see many examples of ICanScienceThat's post.
Quote from: Tom Bishop
...circles do not exist and pi is not 3.14159...

Quote from: totallackey
Do you have any evidence of reality?

Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2018, 11:29:23 PM »
The northern lights, beautiful!

I wish I could see them from here...
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2018, 05:18:28 PM »
This is a prime example of most debates. And the best question of all "What constitutes as evidence?"

If I look up and see blue? Is it evidence?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4387270/Blue-black-dress-riddle-finally-solved.html

If you hear something, is it evidence? Only to you.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/18/brainstorm-green-needle-latest-audio-riddle-tricks-brain/

But I have a picture/video! Thats evidence! Film or digital? Digital is easily editable (a lot of work to be good tho).

But science has proven it! Correct, science has proven this works in this situation until someone proves it doesnt work in another. Did you know E = MC2 isn't fully correct? E²=(mc²)²+(pc) is actually a better representation of E of a moving body. Until proven otherwise.

Science is fully of examples. We have a thought, we run test and analyze the data. If its consistent and repeatable over multiple variables then we consider it proven. Until proven it doesnt always work. BUT that doesnt mean we throw it out. We rework the problem. If we make changes and it works with the new variables AND the old variables (probably more accurate now) then its proven again.

If the new way doesnt work for the old stuff then we have to move on. Either restart both or split the 2 into their own understandings.

Dont shoot me...
Example. We discover magnetism. But how do we stay on the ground? We try to rewrite magnetism to incorporate humans and the earth. Doesnt work. So we keep magnetism and come up with gravity.

Every truth is truth, until proven otherwise (by REPEATABLE experiments).

You have hypothesis (no evidence), theory (evidence, but could be circumstantial) and law (evidence).

"Laws are descriptions — often mathematical descriptions — of natural phenomenon; for example, Newton's Law of Gravity or Mendel's Law of Independent Assortment. These laws simply describe the observation. Not how or why they work"

The difference between scientific laws and scientific facts is a bit harder to define, though the definition is important. Facts are simple, basic observations that have been shown to be true. Laws are generalized observations about a relationship between two or more things in the natural world. The law can be based on facts and tested hypothesizes.

So, even Laws are not 100%.

So when it comes to "truth" sometimes it really does depend on where you standing.
Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it’s a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.

Perception is a guess or estimate of what is 'out there' depending on how we read the clues; therefore it can never be absolute and often is unreliable.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2018, 10:06:50 PM »
If the deliberate falsehood is being said about a specific person then slander laws come into play.

Truth is an absolute legal defense to slander or libel charges.

This could conceivably become an issue for the FE community. It is a fundamental part of the FE ideology that all the astronauts are liars. They will tell anyone associated with aerospace technology that they are flat-out lying about their experience of the round earth. When FEs call a specific astronaut or astronomer a liar, they could be subject to legal action. The subsequent court case would hinge on the truth of flat vs globe.

It's not hard to imagine some NASA astronauts filing a class action lawsuit for defamation against some prominent FE proponent. Actual damages would be hard to show but there could be emotional distress of the astronaut's children or family. Depending on the jurisdiction, punitive damages may come into play.

The truth of FE claims would be tested in court.
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2018, 04:17:16 AM »
Truth is an absolute legal defense to slander or libel charges.
As is honesty and belief that the person accused of defamation is disclosing information in the public interest, regardless of merit or soundness of their claims. I doubt any case concerning FE would revolve around the soundness of FE, but rather whether or not the accused believed she was acting in the public interest.

In the USofA, the most hilarious of legal systems, matters become even more difficult - a public person who believes she has been defamed has to prove that the defamatory statement was published with knowledge of its falsehood.
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2018, 01:30:04 PM »
Truth is an absolute legal defense to slander or libel charges.
As is honesty and belief that the person accused of defamation is disclosing information in the public interest, regardless of merit or soundness of their claims. I doubt any case concerning FE would revolve around the soundness of FE, but rather whether or not the accused believed she was acting in the public interest.

In the USofA, the most hilarious of legal systems, matters become even more difficult - a public person who believes she has been defamed has to prove that the defamatory statement was published with knowledge of its falsehood.

Naaaactually, it's not that simple as Alex Jones of Infowars is currently finding out.

Your opinion is protected. If you say, "It is my opinion that Astronaut Zeb is a buffoon with ears like a donkey." that is your opinion and it is protected.
But if you say, "It is my opinion that on April 12th, Astronaut Zeb lied about his participation in a 2016 space flight." that is an accusation.

Also, you can be held liable for reposting defamation even if you thought is was true.

In a brief for the Alex Jones case a first amendment scholar wrote,"It (posting opinion as facts) would allow unscrupulous news organizations to couch their language as opinion and mask their meaning with implication and insinuation. That would leave readers clear as to the message but avoiding all liability for defamatory remarks. This should not be allowed and is not allowed."

One day, an FE youtuber may go too far talking smack about Elon Musk and he will send a horde of zombie lawyers to lay waste to everything in their path.

In America, you can be sued for anything at anytime no matter how ridiculous the cause.



Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2018, 02:57:15 PM »
Naaaactually, it's not that simple as Alex Jones of Infowars is currently finding out.
Unless you have some particularly privileged insight into a court case that has yet to take place, I'm afraid your declaration is a vast overstatement at this stage. Getting sued for something is not the same as being convicted. Perhaps his case will set a precedent, perhaps it won't.

Also, let's not forget the context of your statement. Are you predicting that the Alex Jones case will scientifically investigate whether or not the Sandy Hook shooting took place? I can only speculate, but I find this unlikely.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 03:01:52 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2018, 07:34:49 PM »
We don't yet know what AJ's ultimate defense to these charges will be but his first defensive action was struck down just a couple of hours ago. The judge in Austin, TX (AJ has other suits in different jurisdictions) just denied Alex Jones request to throw the case out based on freedom of speech. No one really expected this defense to hold up. Freedom of speech does not mean you are free to say whatever you want about other people.

If AJ's defense will be built on the idea that Sandy Hook really did not happen (truth defense.) If he tries to say that the conspiracy is real, he will have to first overcome all the prima facia evidence in witness accounts, hospital reports and death certificates. In that eventuality, his evidence might have to include something radical like exhuming the bodies of the shooting victims to show they don't exist. I can't think of what he could use as evidence to prove his case.

And yes, Pete said it, getting sued is not the same as getting convicted (losing the lawsuit.) Getting a lawsuit in motion doesn't even mean it has any merit at all. Unfortunately, in America, even if you are innocent you still have to mount a legal defense against a lawsuit that could cost thousands of dollars. If Elon Musk sends a 200 foot tall Lawyerzilla after someone, being innocent won't be enough to protect them.

I don't really think any of this will ever affect the (well-moderated, civil) TFES community. It could affect the more radical Youtubers someday.



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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2018, 08:17:56 PM »
It is my opinion, that it seems like somebody should look into doublethink.
Like 1984
If I say it is green, it becomes green.
Apart from that, looking at northern light is wonderful, but listen to it is beyond anything you can explain.
You can feel the electricity like a surround sound of nature. It starts like a crackling lightning and vibrates all around you.

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Offline junker

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Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2018, 08:42:34 PM »
It is my opinion, that it seems like somebody should look into doublethink.
Like 1984
If I say it is green, it becomes green.
Apart from that, looking at northern light is wonderful, but listen to it is beyond anything you can explain.
You can feel the electricity like a surround sound of nature. It starts like a crackling lightning and vibrates all around you.

You aren't really on topic here. Most of your posts are pretty vague thus far, and there is no need to include an attachment in every post. Please try to contribute to the topic rather than just shoehorning in things you want to say.
Wait, is Thork gay or does he just have a thing for lipstick?

Re: At what point is it appropriate to call out a deliberate falsehood?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2018, 09:14:40 PM »
I used a week before I posted, looked topics and everything, here it is doublethink, Orwell 1984. And babel
One person speak say English, one speak say German, nobody is wrong, it is from where you come.
Northern Light gives the perfect anagram, it does not only have colours, but also sound.
Blau - blue, both is right.
If I am high up in say Alaska, and somebody tells me the sun is shining every day, that is not my reality, why not respect that other people have another reality ?
You tell why you are of the opinion the sky is green, and if they are looking on northern light, it is right.
Instead of saying it is blue, which does not line up with ex night.
Why is it somebody have patent on the truth of the colour of the sky ?
Right now, mine look pretty black.
When pics illustrates were your line of thinking illustrates, what is wrong with posting them ?
If I believed Mars was a planet, and I lived there, I would claim the sky was reddish brown , because that was my view if I looked outside. Illustrated with this pic. Just as when I use green sunglasses, everything looks more green.