pj1

RE believers - why are you here?
« on: July 23, 2018, 11:38:59 AM »
Hi there,

Question for RE-ers... I'm curious about what motivates you to contribute here?

Personally, before joining this forum I would have dismissed FET as complete nonsense without any kind of consideration, but I find it fascinating the extent to which arguments are put forward and rebutted by people on either side.

Now I'm addicted to this forum just for the debate! I'm learning a lot.

How about you?

Pj1

Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2018, 04:35:37 PM »
For me, having become aware that this was a thing, it was initially curiosity about how anyone could possibly believe this sort of thing. Found this place, followed some of the threads with interest/exasperation. In the end I signed up. I think there's a principle that things like this should not be left unchallenged.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2018, 05:11:44 PM »
I think there's a principle that things like this should not be left unchallenged.

This.
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline edby

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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2018, 05:45:53 PM »
Many reasons. I am not here to convert anyone (and don't believe it's possible, for that matter).

My academic specialism is in the history of logic and history of scientific method, and one of the big problems (the demarcation problem) is whether we can sufficiently distinguish between science and pseudoscience. (I think we can, by the way, but that’s a separate subject). I also have an interest in the psychology of denial.

Naturally I have an interest in education, and here I think the education system has badly failed us, in the way it teaches facts, not method. Science has become so sophisticated and difficult that we have lost touch with the methods, often very simple, that our distant ancestors used to discover the universe.

It’s also been fun. I knew comparatively little about astronomy and geodesy when I started this, now I know a lot more. There is a lot of history still to be written.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 05:47:59 PM by edby »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 07:58:22 PM »
... I have an interest in education, and here I think the education system has badly failed us, in the way it teaches facts, not method.

Worldwide, or in your locale?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline edby

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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2018, 08:48:29 PM »
... I have an interest in education, and here I think the education system has badly failed us, in the way it teaches facts, not method.

Worldwide, or in your locale?
Particularly the U.S.

pj1

Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2018, 12:20:52 PM »
I think there's a principle that things like this should not be left unchallenged.

This.

Big fan of the way this is summarised. Presumably FEers would say the same thing, and that's why we're all here  ;)

I also have an interest in the psychology of denial.

Likewise. I've not come across the demarcation problem.  I'll have a read.

Thanks!

Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 10:47:48 AM »
For me, having become aware that this was a thing, it was initially curiosity about how anyone could possibly believe this sort of thing. Found this place, followed some of the threads with interest/exasperation. In the end I signed up. I think there's a principle that things like this should not be left unchallenged.

Yes - this. Well put sir.
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.

That does NOT mean I accept or tolerate abuse, trolling, abruptly ending a conversation because I ask a question you cannot answer and especially the use of pseudo-science, or other non-evidence based data or untestable theories (without at least offering a proposed method of experiment). Clear enough?

Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2018, 10:00:33 PM »
I'm here for a serious discussion to challenge the flat earth myth.
As an evidence-based scientist, many might disagree with me.
I totally get this from panicp.  With 14 posts I can see that this is true.  Keep up the good work panicp!

For me, having become aware that this was a thing, it was initially curiosity about how anyone could possibly believe this sort of thing. Found this place, followed some of the threads with interest/exasperation. In the end I signed up. I think there's a principle that things like this should not be left unchallenged.
Really?  I don't believe it. 1,145 posts!  How is it possible you're still here with an answer like this?  This answer is good for about 80 posts.  1,145 posts?  My friend, you've seen everything there is to see here 10 times over.  Why are you still here?

The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.

Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2018, 09:02:51 AM »
Why are you still here?
That is a good question. To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place. There are only a certain number of times you can see the same threads go round and round. While I still see threads that I feel like I want to add to then I'll keep posting, when I don't then I won't. Right now we're not quite at that stage but there are fewer threads of interest than there used to be. Another factor is the realisation that most of the FE posters don't actually believe in a FE. Interacting with someone who is ignorant or misguided can be exasperating, but when you realise those people are actually just trolls it makes it a bit pointless. I never really understand the whole "debate club" idea, I find it less interesting when I see people posting things I know they don't believe.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2018, 10:03:30 AM »
Why are you still here?
That is a good question. To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place. There are only a certain number of times you can see the same threads go round and round. While I still see threads that I feel like I want to add to then I'll keep posting, when I don't then I won't. Right now we're not quite at that stage but there are fewer threads of interest than there used to be. Another factor is the realisation that most of the FE posters don't actually believe in a FE. Interacting with someone who is ignorant or misguided can be exasperating, but when you realise those people are actually just trolls it makes it a bit pointless. I never really understand the whole "debate club" idea, I find it less interesting when I see people posting things I know they don't believe.

 ::)

The clue is in the name. The Flat Earth Society. Come for the flat earth, stay for the society. Its not our fault you have failed to make friends within the community. You're a bit of an oddball. Of course you'll have seen all the topics after a while. How do you think we feel when someone makes a thread wanting to discuss maps again ... for the 5000th time. But when you arrived, we did it all again and let you discuss that. Because we're nice.

Let's suppose you ran a restaurant ... We'll call it 'The Restaurant At The Edge of The World'. And you would give people a complimentary coffee when they first arrive. Now you'd hope they'd buy some food, but they might not, and that's ok. There was no obligation. But what if someone came by several times a day, every day, and had drunk 1149 cups of coffee? And you know they are never going to order food. Do you stop giving a flying th*rk when they order another coffee and your waiters aren't so quick to serve them? Do you care so much when they complain about the taste of your coffee or that they are getting bored of your coffee? Maybe its time you found another restaurant or ordered some bloody food at this one!  >o<

In our restaurant, you have sat down every day and occupied a table. And you order a coffee, and Tom Bishop brings you one. And you order another, and I bring that over, and another one and maybe Tom brings that over. You often complain about the quality of that free coffee. Sometimes you push a vase off the table or you throw cutlery on the floor because you're a th*rkhole, and Pete or Junker give you a warning for that. Occasionally they have to ask you to leave the restaurant because you are upsetting the other customers and you get barred for a few weeks. But we keep bringing you coffee when you return.

We have an extensive menu. Arts & Entertainment, Tech & Info, Philosophy, Religion & Society, Science & Alternative Science + we also have a dessert menu with a Lounge, Angry Rantings and Complete Nonsense. But you keep ordering coffee. And the thing about our restaurant is none of the staff get paid. We kind of hope some of our customers will muck in and take a coffee to the new guy sat at a table to help out as we are rushed off our feet. You know where the pot is by now. Which is why we foster a debate club.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 10:22:49 AM by Baby Thork »
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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2018, 10:07:11 PM »
Its not our fault you have failed to make friends within the community.
No, it isn't. But that's not why I signed up here.
I have friends in real life and, yes, I have some people who are more "virtual" friends, I didn't come here looking to make any more.
My first response to this thread explained why I came here.

Quote
How do you think we feel when someone makes a thread wanting to discuss maps again ... for the 5000th time. But when you arrived, we did it all again and let you discuss that. Because we're nice.
That IS nice, but maybe if your FAQ and Wiki were better you wouldn't keep getting the same threads. You keep getting the same questions because you don't have any answers. When I came here I expected you guys to have a reasonably coherent FE model or at least working towards one. But you don't and you're not. The reason for the first of those of course is that one isn't possible and the reason for the second is that none of you believe in a FE.

You have other things on the menu in the same way Chinese Restaurants do [he says, changing your analogy somewhat]. Yes, they might have a few English dishes on the menu for fussy people but I didn't come into what I thought was an authentic Chinese restaurant for chips, I want some kung pao chicken. And now I find that you guys don't know how to cook kung pao chicken and, worse, you're not even Chinese. Forgive me for being a bit disappointed. And no, I'm not going to join in and start pretending I'm Chinese and dishing out the crappy excuse for kung pao which I know isn't any good.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2018, 10:12:22 PM »
That IS nice, but maybe if your FAQ and Wiki were better

There are only a couple of people who occasionally add to the Wiki. There is thread about the Wiki in the projects forum. Why not volunteer to do something about it rather than complain?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 02:59:53 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2018, 11:19:40 PM »
Its not our fault you have failed to make friends within the community.
No, it isn't. But that's not why I signed up here.
Well then you have missed the point of this place. It is an online community. First and foremost. And whether we are telling people the earth is flat, hawking T-shirts or collecting your data to sell to scammers, all of that is secondary to the business of having an online community. No matter how confused you may be about our motives, who believes what and how good our explanations are ... you must have spotted that there are many people here who post all the time, share their interests, tease each other, joke with each other and generally like interacting with each other on this site. So if you enjoy our company, you should make an effort to be friendly and if you don't like anyone ... go to reddit, go to 4chan, go to landoverbaptist, go to david ike's forums .... there are millions of websites, you don't have to keep posting on this one.

I have friends in real life and, yes, I have some people who are more "virtual" friends, I didn't come here looking to make any more.
You came to an online community with no intention of ever becoming a part of that community. And over 1000 posts later you still don't want to be part of that community? Why are you still here? If you think nothing of the people here, what do you care what they think and why are you wasting your time correcting them?

My first response to this thread explained why I came here.
You are here because someone is wrong on the internet. Well you could just follow Donald Trump on Twitter for that. We don't have a monopoly on saying things you disagree with.

Quote
How do you think we feel when someone makes a thread wanting to discuss maps again ... for the 5000th time. But when you arrived, we did it all again and let you discuss that. Because we're nice.
That IS nice, but maybe if your FAQ and Wiki were better you wouldn't keep getting the same threads.
It would be too lengthy. People already tl;dr our wiki. I'll bet you only read it after you'd been here a while and asked all the beginner questions first. We can't make the wiki too advanced else we'd create a barrier to entry.

You keep getting the same questions because you don't have any answers. When I came here I expected you guys to have a reasonably coherent FE model or at least working towards one. But you don't and you're not. The reason for the first of those of course is that one isn't possible and the reason for the second is that none of you believe in a FE.
So you are disappointed that we can't do something you deem impossible. Are you a moron or something? It is not possible to do something that is impossible. Or did you think we'd make the impossible possible, possibly exceeding your impossibly high standards?

You have other things on the menu in the same way Chinese Restaurants do [he says, changing your analogy somewhat]. Yes, they might have a few English dishes on the menu for fussy people but I didn't come into what I thought was an authentic Chinese restaurant for chips, I want some kung pao chicken. And now I find that you guys don't know how to cook kung pao chicken and, worse, you're not even Chinese. Forgive me for being a bit disappointed. And no, I'm not going to join in and start pretending I'm Chinese and dishing out the crappy excuse for kung pao which I know isn't any good.
Then stop drinking our Th*rking coffee!  >o<

Also Pete Svarrior is Chinese.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 11:23:57 PM by Baby Thork »
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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2018, 08:02:09 AM »
That IS nice, but maybe if your FAQ and Wiki were better

There are only a couple of people who occasionally add to the Wiki. There is thread about the Wiki in the projects forum. Why not volunteer to do something about it rather than complain?
I'm not a FE person so I don't see how I could write for the Wiki but I have commented on Wiki pages here and there.
On several occasions I have given my opinion on how I think the Wiki could be made better and been ignored or shouted down - on one occasion Pete gave me a warning for doing so because he felt I was repeating the same thing twice (broadly true but the warning was for "spamming", that isn't what spamming is, it was another example of a RE person being warned for something because a FE person didn't like what was being said, no FE person would have been warned for what I said).

While I'm here, the problem I see with the Wiki is that it's a bit of a love letter to Rowbotham, it's not clear enough that there are competing FE ideas. I see some effort being made to address that. But if you're not willing to evolve your ideas or do experiments to test them then you're going to get the same threads over and over again as new people sign up and find the same faults in your ideas.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2018, 06:47:07 PM »
Well then you have missed the point of this place.
The "About" on the home page of this place says:

Quote
This is the home of the world-famous Flat Earth Society, a place for free thinkers and the intellectual exchange of ideas. This website hosts information and serves as an archive for Flat Earth Theory. It also offers an opportunity to discuss this with the Flat Earth community on our forums.

You can see how a stupid person might think that this place is for discussing FE theory with people who believe in it. So I don't think I have missed the point of this place. Like any online community, virtual and even real life friendships can develop. I invited several people to my wedding who I first knew from another online community. So that can be a nice side-effect of joining a community like this, but it's not what I'm here for and it's not the primary point of this place.

I don't need to justify why I post here any more than you do. While I keep seeing things I want to respond to I'll keep posting. I suspect I'm doing that less than I used to for the reasons I've outlined. And who says I don't give my opinions on other things and challenge other things I think are wrong? The difference here is this is more than someone being wrong on the internet. I think Trump is wrong about things, I think Brexiters are wrong about things BUT these are often complicated issues where there is no definitive right or wrong. The shape of the earth is a bit more clear cut and I came here because it's important that plainly wrong ideas are challenged.

I deem a flat earth model impossible, If you are really a FE believer then you clearly don't so what I'm disappointed about is there is so little effort to make a coherent model which makes any sense at all. I was expecting a FE model which vaguely hung together and which I could see some merit in even if I disagreed with it.

The caveat to all this, and this is something which I am starting to suspect more strongly, is that none of you actually believe in FE and this place IS just for the lolz in which case yes, I have missed the point of this whole place.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Offline edby

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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2018, 02:26:32 PM »
You keep getting the same questions because you don't have any answers. When I came here I expected you guys to have a reasonably coherent FE model or at least working towards one. But you don't and you're not. The reason for the first of those of course is that one isn't possible and the reason for the second is that none of you believe in a FE.
So you are disappointed that we can't do something you deem impossible. Are you a moron or something? It is not possible to do something that is impossible. Or did you think we'd make the impossible possible, possibly exceeding your impossibly high standards?
Perhaps he meant that when he joined he expected a reasonably coherent FE model, thinking that might be possible. Now he realises it is impossible.

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Offline Zanz

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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2018, 10:06:42 PM »
I came here to 'Research the Flat Earth' before discussing it.

One thing i hate is people talking about stuff they know nothing about, it bothers me alot, and i don't want to be that type of person.
I still believe its round don't worry.

Max_Almond

Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2018, 02:43:00 AM »
Hi there,

Question for RE-ers... I'm curious about what motivates you to contribute here?

Personally, before joining this forum I would have dismissed FET as complete nonsense without any kind of consideration, but I find it fascinating the extent to which arguments are put forward and rebutted by people on either side.

Now I'm addicted to this forum just for the debate! I'm learning a lot.

How about you?

Pj1

I'm here because I mistakenly thought that presenting simple evidence and facts to flat earthers would enable them to move beyond this silly belief.

It sounds ridiculous, I know, to think such a thing.

I'm mostly over that now, but not fully.

Also because, in my more bored or disappointing moments, I had a habit of making myself feel temporarily better by finding people making low intelligence arguments and engaging with them.

I'm trying to stop that too.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2018, 09:59:47 PM »
That IS nice, but maybe if your FAQ and Wiki were better

There are only a couple of people who occasionally add to the Wiki. There is thread about the Wiki in the projects forum. Why not volunteer to do something about it rather than complain?

Tom, one of the chief complaints heard from everyone that has been here a while is that people come along and ask the same questions over and over and that is absolutely true.    It would be great if when people are told to read the WIKI and FAQ that the literal "FAQs" where covered.  My guess is there are a few people that would spend some time coming up with the list of questions.  It seems to me that would be a huge benefit to your cause.  Many on the RE side point noobs to them when they know a topic is covered.
Nothing Guest has ever said should be taken as representative of anything other than Guest's own delusions opinions.