totallackey

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2018, 01:24:17 PM »
you are aware that no CGI representation (utilizing KEPLER and NEWTON formulas and GR) of the movement of the EARTH, SOLAR SYSTEM, AND GALAXIES, exists?

Disagree. I've got one on my iPad for Earth and Solar System.
No, you do not.

Provide the program code that provides clear, unadulterated evidence of the use of Kepler, Newton, and GR formulas in the source material.

Otherwise, apologize to the forum for making such a claim and immediately cease posting here on this forum.
You got him there, ay.

It would be impossible to make a simulation using all the methods simultaneously, as they overlap.

There are plenty of simulators that use the Newtonian physics to simulate the solar system.

Quick search finds a Java project simulating 24 solar systems using newtonian and GR:
https://github.com/nicokuijpers/SolarSystemSimulator

You wont find source code for the more advanced simulators, as people generally want to make money on the advanced stuff they create.

Besides, simulating an entire galaxy where we have very limited information about the makeup of planets is as good as impossible.
Simulating our solar system is easy, and really only requires Newtonian physics.
And that is where all of RE gets the complete kabosh.

You guys are promoting a complete and utter pile of unadulterated HOGWASH, plain, pure, and simple!

All this mystical and accurate math crapola you constantly put forth, stating: "THE MATH IS CLEAR AND IN FULL SUPPORT OF A SPHERICAL EARTH!"

Yet, when pressed to provide a COMPUTER PROGRAM (you know computers, right? the machine that PROCESSES AND RENDERS IMAGES CORRECTLY ACCORDING TO MATH INPUTS!) UTILIZING your sacred gods of RE in the rendering, what do we have?

"You gotta be satisfied with this BS..."

YOUR OWN SOURCE STATES IT USES: "...Newton mechanics or General Relativity...", NOT BOTH!

LMAO!!! 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:06:08 PM by totallackey »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2018, 02:08:58 PM »
And that is where all of RE gets the complete kabosh.

You guys are promoting a complete and utter pile of unadulterated HOGWASH, plain, pure, and simple!

All this mystical and accurate math crapola you constantly put forth, stating: "THE MATH IS CLEAR AND IN FULL SUPPORT OF A SPHERICAL EARTH!"

Yet, when pressed to provide a COMPUTER PROGRAM (you know computers, right? the machine that PROCESSES AND RENDERS IMAGES CORRECTLY ACCORDING TO MATH INPUTS!) UTILIZING your sacred gods of RE in the rendering, what do we have?

"You gotta be satisfied with this BS..."

YOUR OWN SOURCE STATES IT USES: "...Newton mechanics or General Relativity..., NOT BOTH!

LMAO!!!

I'm sure I just stated that they overlap:
Quote
It would be impossible to make a simulation using all the methods simultaneously, as they overlap.
Yeah I did.

The source probably uses newtonian physics for solar systems and general relativity for binding them together in a small galaxy cluster, it doesn't use both for the same things as that would be an overlap.
I'm sure I also stated it would be near impossible to get the source code for more advanced simulations.
I'm also sure I stated that for our own solar system, it is quite easy to simulate only using Newtonian physics, hell I can even create that myself.

Do you even know anything about programming?
Well I do, I know how 3d graphics work, I've created my own raytracing camera once which perfectly showed a perspective image, I've created a solar system with planets orbiting a sun, with moons orbiting the planets (not our own solar system though), using the very simple concept of gravity that FEers have an extremely hard time to grasp.
You demand simulations, you demand source code, you probably won't even understand the source code even if you got exactly what you asked for anyways.

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2018, 02:24:25 PM »
It has also been alleged that the seemingly simple math used in Astronomical calculation textbooks are "really" based on keplerian orbital dynamics. This article addresses that.

I have collected a number of resources showing that the perverted myth that the Round Earth Theory has been validated, to be false. I ask that any challenger in opposition demonstrates with real evidence that astronomy can predict the motions of the planets as they are described in the Round Earth Theory. More evidence than a link to an obscure pdf or unverified model. It will need to be demonstrated that a model, according to the geometry of the heliocentric system, can predict any positions of the planets at all!

an ephemeris is a table of positions of celestial objects like stars and planets and such.  these tables are derived from models of planetary positions.  one of the most widely used is a model called VSOP87.  btw this is the model from which NASA's eclipse tables are derived.

Planetary theories in rectangular and spherical variables - VSOP 87 solutions: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1988A&A...202..309B
Numerical expressions for precession formulae and mean elements for the Moon and the planets: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994A&A...282..663S

here's a more readable overview that includes source code and instructions for using VSOP87 output positions: http://neoprogrammics.com/vsop87/index.html

Quote
In the simplest terms, the VSOP87 theory can be described as a long-term mathematical model of the solar system, specifically, the orbits of the major planets from Mercury to Neptune.
...
To compute the apparent positions of the planets as viewed from Earth, we first need to know where the planets and the Earth are in their orbits at the same moment.  This is the first and most laborious step in computing the apparent geocentric positions of the planets.
...
All the VSOP87 series do essentially the same thing.  They compute the co-ordinates of the planets for a given moment.
...
These are the raw, instantaneous, geometric, heliocentric co-ordinates from which the apparent geocentric ecliptical and equatorial co-ordinates and distance are subsequently derived.  By geometric co-ordinates we mean that no corrections for the location of the observer have yet been applied, such as for parallax, light-time, aberration, etc.  This is the actual location of the planet in space, not its apparent location to the eye.
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

totallackey

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2018, 02:40:34 PM »
And that is where all of RE gets the complete kabosh.

You guys are promoting a complete and utter pile of unadulterated HOGWASH, plain, pure, and simple!

All this mystical and accurate math crapola you constantly put forth, stating: "THE MATH IS CLEAR AND IN FULL SUPPORT OF A SPHERICAL EARTH!"

Yet, when pressed to provide a COMPUTER PROGRAM (you know computers, right? the machine that PROCESSES AND RENDERS IMAGES CORRECTLY ACCORDING TO MATH INPUTS!) UTILIZING your sacred gods of RE in the rendering, what do we have?

"You gotta be satisfied with this BS..."

YOUR OWN SOURCE STATES IT USES: "...Newton mechanics or General Relativity..., NOT BOTH!

LMAO!!!

I'm sure I just stated that they overlap:
Quote
It would be impossible to make a simulation using all the methods simultaneously, as they overlap.
Yeah I did.

The source probably uses newtonian physics for solar systems and general relativity for binding them together in a small galaxy cluster, it doesn't use both for the same things as that would be an overlap.
I'm sure I also stated it would be near impossible to get the source code for more advanced simulations.
I'm also sure I stated that for our own solar system, it is quite easy to simulate only using Newtonian physics, hell I can even create that myself.

Do you even know anything about programming?
Well I do, I know how 3d graphics work, I've created my own raytracing camera once which perfectly showed a perspective image, I've created a solar system with planets orbiting a sun, with moons orbiting the planets (not our own solar system though), using the very simple concept of gravity that FEers have an extremely hard time to grasp.
You demand simulations, you demand source code, you probably won't even understand the source code even if you got exactly what you asked for anyways.
Listen, I understand enough to know this...

Your mad hatter scientists of your holy RE temples claim that Einstein GR, Kepler, and Newton math are in agreement and not "overlapping," as you deceivingly phrase it.

Your own source states it uses one or the other and not all in concert, as your own scientists state it must be.

It is patently evident you do not even understand your own writing and hence your claim you have created your own CGI models of the solar system based only on Newtonian physics is also a bunch of BS and you need to stop making such provably false claims on the internet.

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2018, 02:55:51 PM »
The orbital celestial equations of motion are a set of nonlinear ordinary differential equations with initial values.

Nonlinear ordinary differential equations are analyzed using bifurcation theory.

The hallmark of this analysis is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions.

'As Poincare experimented, he was relieved to discover that in most of
the situations, the possible orbits varied only slightly from the initial
2-body orbit, and were still stable, but what occurred during further
experimentation was a shock. Poincare discovered that even in some of the
smallest approximations some orbits behaved in an erratic unstable manner. His
calculations showed that even a minute gravitational pull from a third body
might cause a planet to wobble and fly out of orbit all together.'

Even measuring initial conditions of the system to an arbitrarily high, but finite accuracy, we will not be able to describe the system dynamics "at any time in the past or future". To predict the future of a chaotic system for arbitrarily long times, one would need to know the initial conditions with infinite accuracy, and this is by no means possible.

The Hamiltonian formulation of this set of nonlinear ordinary differential equations (mechanical system without friction) leads to the famous KAM theory.

Two of the greatest Soviet mathematicians of the 20th century, A.N. Kolmogorov and V.I. Arnold asked the following question: to what extent the geometric structure of the quasi-periodic dynamics of a Hamiltonian system persists under small perturbations that destroy the toroidal symmetry?

This led to the famous KAM theory (Kolmogorov-Arnold-Moser); however, it is valid for "sufficiently" small perturbations.

In reality, the perturbations in the solar system are far too large to apply KAM theory: the conditions of the KAM theorem are too strict to apply to a realistic solar system.

So, the mathematicians have to rely on computing Lyapunov exponents, in order to try to predict any region of instability/chaos.

Even in this case, the measured Lyapunov exponent may have no relation to the true exponent: great care has to be taken in computing such quantities.

In 1989, J. Laskar proudly announced that the exponential divergence time for the solar system is 5 million years.

However, again, this calculation DOES NOT take into account the sensitivity of the results due to uncertainties of the knowledge of true masses and the INITIAL CONDITIONS of the planets.


Jack Wisdom (MIT): It is not possible to exclude the possibility that the orbit of the Earth will suddenly exhibit similar wild excursions in eccentricity.

The exponential divergence of chaotic trajectories precludes long-term prediction given the limited knowledge of the state of our solar system.

Lyapunov exponents and symplectic integration.


Let d(t) be the distance between two solutions, with d(0) being their initial separation. Then d(t) increases approximately as d(0)eλt in a chaotic system, where λ is the Lyapunov exponent. The inverse of the Lyapunov exponent, 1/λ, is called the Lyapunov time, and measures how long it takes two nearby solutions to diverge by a factor of e.

Since the solar system is not integrable, and experiences unpredictable small perturbations, it cannot lie permanently on a KAM torus, and is thus chaotic.


Sussman and Wisdom's 1992 integration of the entire solar system displayed a disturbing dependence on the timestep of the integration (measurement of the Lyapunov time).


Thus, different researchers who draw their initial conditions from the same ephemeris at different times can find vastly different Lyapunov timescales.

Wayne Hayes, UC Irvine


To show the importance and the dependence on the sensitivity of the initial conditions of the set of differential equations, an error as small as 15 meters in measuring the position of the Earth today would make it impossible to predict where the Earth would be in its orbit in just over 100 million years' time.

A difference in the initial position of 1 cm grows to ∼1 AU (= 1.496 x 10^11 m) after 90–150 million years.


Let us take a closer look the chaotic dynamics of planetary formation; thus, a clear indication that the initial conditions cannot be predicted with accuracy (as we have seen, a mere 15 meters difference in the data will have catastrophic consequences upon the calculations).

OFFICIAL SCIENCE INFORMATION

Four stages of planetary formation

Initial stage: condensation and growth of grains in the hot nebular disk

Early stage: growth of grains to kilometer-sized planetesimals

Middle stage: agglomeration of planetesimals

Late stage: protoplanets


For the crucial stages, the initial and early stages, prediction becomes practically impossible.

As if this wasn't enough, we have absolute proof that in the age of modern man planet Earth underwent sudden pole shifts (heliocentrical version), thus making null and void any integration of the solar system/Lyapunov exponents calculations which do not take into account such variations of the system's parameters:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1635693#msg1635693

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1546053#msg1546053


Let me show what sensitive dependence on initial conditions means, using one of the most famous examples: the Lorenz attractor butterfly effect.

In 1961, Lorenz was running a numerical computer model to redo a weather prediction from the middle of the previous run as a shortcut. He entered the initial condition 0.506 from the printout instead of entering the full precision 0.506127 value. The result was a completely different weather scenario.

Here is the set of Lorentz equations:



Now, the set of differential equations which describes the planetary orbits is much more complicated than this.



Numerical expressions for precession formulae and mean elements for the Moon and the planets: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994A&A...282..663S

Laskar's calculations are useless without specifying the initial conditions and parameters of the equations:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1774581#msg1774581


The best that modern astronomy can claim is a 300 year limit on the stability of the solar system, using Newcomb's series:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1935048#msg1935048

And that hypothesis does not take into account the fact that the initial conditions cannot be specified at all for the orbital equations in question.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 02:59:04 PM by sandokhan »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2018, 03:03:01 PM »
And that is where all of RE gets the complete kabosh.

You guys are promoting a complete and utter pile of unadulterated HOGWASH, plain, pure, and simple!

All this mystical and accurate math crapola you constantly put forth, stating: "THE MATH IS CLEAR AND IN FULL SUPPORT OF A SPHERICAL EARTH!"

Yet, when pressed to provide a COMPUTER PROGRAM (you know computers, right? the machine that PROCESSES AND RENDERS IMAGES CORRECTLY ACCORDING TO MATH INPUTS!) UTILIZING your sacred gods of RE in the rendering, what do we have?

"You gotta be satisfied with this BS..."

YOUR OWN SOURCE STATES IT USES: "...Newton mechanics or General Relativity..., NOT BOTH!

LMAO!!!

I'm sure I just stated that they overlap:
Quote
It would be impossible to make a simulation using all the methods simultaneously, as they overlap.
Yeah I did.

The source probably uses newtonian physics for solar systems and general relativity for binding them together in a small galaxy cluster, it doesn't use both for the same things as that would be an overlap.
I'm sure I also stated it would be near impossible to get the source code for more advanced simulations.
I'm also sure I stated that for our own solar system, it is quite easy to simulate only using Newtonian physics, hell I can even create that myself.

Do you even know anything about programming?
Well I do, I know how 3d graphics work, I've created my own raytracing camera once which perfectly showed a perspective image, I've created a solar system with planets orbiting a sun, with moons orbiting the planets (not our own solar system though), using the very simple concept of gravity that FEers have an extremely hard time to grasp.
You demand simulations, you demand source code, you probably won't even understand the source code even if you got exactly what you asked for anyways.
Listen, I understand enough to know this...

Your mad hatter scientists of your holy RE temples claim that Einstein GR, Kepler, and Newton math are in agreement and not "overlapping," as you deceivingly phrase it.

Your own source states it uses one or the other and not all in concert, as your own scientists state it must be.

It is patently evident you do not even understand your own writing and hence your claim you have created your own CGI models of the solar system based only on Newtonian physics is also a bunch of BS and you need to stop making such provably false claims on the internet.

All I needed to use was this:
Quote
The formula is F = G*((m sub 1*m sub 2)/r^2), where F is the force of attraction between the two bodies, G is the universal gravitational constant, m sub 1 is the mass of the first object, m sub 2 is the mass of the second object and r is the distance between the centers of each object.
Newtons law of gravity, simple as that.

As stated, I didn't simulate our own solar system, but if I had placed the planets correctly, given them correct mass, and given them their initial speed, I would have created a model of our solar system.
Then I would need to apply spin to the objects aswell as light from the sun and perhaps a static star background, and I would then be able to see all our observations in the sky.

That is all it takes, and there are many simulations out there of our solar system, since it is so easy to make.

totallackey

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2018, 03:15:41 PM »
And that is where all of RE gets the complete kabosh.

You guys are promoting a complete and utter pile of unadulterated HOGWASH, plain, pure, and simple!

All this mystical and accurate math crapola you constantly put forth, stating: "THE MATH IS CLEAR AND IN FULL SUPPORT OF A SPHERICAL EARTH!"

Yet, when pressed to provide a COMPUTER PROGRAM (you know computers, right? the machine that PROCESSES AND RENDERS IMAGES CORRECTLY ACCORDING TO MATH INPUTS!) UTILIZING your sacred gods of RE in the rendering, what do we have?

"You gotta be satisfied with this BS..."

YOUR OWN SOURCE STATES IT USES: "...Newton mechanics or General Relativity..., NOT BOTH!

LMAO!!!

I'm sure I just stated that they overlap:
Quote
It would be impossible to make a simulation using all the methods simultaneously, as they overlap.
Yeah I did.

The source probably uses newtonian physics for solar systems and general relativity for binding them together in a small galaxy cluster, it doesn't use both for the same things as that would be an overlap.
I'm sure I also stated it would be near impossible to get the source code for more advanced simulations.
I'm also sure I stated that for our own solar system, it is quite easy to simulate only using Newtonian physics, hell I can even create that myself.

Do you even know anything about programming?
Well I do, I know how 3d graphics work, I've created my own raytracing camera once which perfectly showed a perspective image, I've created a solar system with planets orbiting a sun, with moons orbiting the planets (not our own solar system though), using the very simple concept of gravity that FEers have an extremely hard time to grasp.
You demand simulations, you demand source code, you probably won't even understand the source code even if you got exactly what you asked for anyways.
Listen, I understand enough to know this...

Your mad hatter scientists of your holy RE temples claim that Einstein GR, Kepler, and Newton math are in agreement and not "overlapping," as you deceivingly phrase it.

Your own source states it uses one or the other and not all in concert, as your own scientists state it must be.

It is patently evident you do not even understand your own writing and hence your claim you have created your own CGI models of the solar system based only on Newtonian physics is also a bunch of BS and you need to stop making such provably false claims on the internet.

All I needed to use was this:
Quote
The formula is F = G*((m sub 1*m sub 2)/r^2), where F is the force of attraction between the two bodies, G is the universal gravitational constant, m sub 1 is the mass of the first object, m sub 2 is the mass of the second object and r is the distance between the centers of each object.
Newtons law of gravity, simple as that.

As stated, I didn't simulate our own solar system, but if I had placed the planets correctly, given them correct mass, and given them their initial speed, I would have created a model of our solar system.
Then I would need to apply spin to the objects aswell as light from the sun and perhaps a static star background, and I would then be able to see all our observations in the sky.

That is all it takes, and there are many simulations out there of our solar system, since it is so easy to make.
Blah, blah, blah...

Take notice, you have produced NOTHING!

You can write about it all you want...you can clamor on and on and on...

In the end, even if you could do as you claim, your purty model would only be based on Newtonian physics (per your own claim) and include nothing of Kepler or Einstein.

If it was easy to make, we would already have it.

We do not.

Therefore, the science you proudly support and claim as gospel is INCORRECT and a bald-faced lie!
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:04:41 PM by totallackey »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2018, 03:17:41 PM »
Newtons law of gravity, simple as that.

The greatest mathematician and physicist of the 18th century, Leonhard Euler, dismissed the attractive law of gravity:

“Now, in whatever way we imagine the cause of gravity, as it is the effect of the pressure of a fluid, the force with which each molecule is pushed will always be proportional to the extension or the volume of that molecule. Indeed it is a general rule of hydrostatics that fluids act according to the volumes: a body immersed in water is always pushed by a force equal to the weight of an equal volume of water, but in an opposite direction.”

“the matter which constitutes the subtle fluid, cause of the gravity, is of an utterly different nature from the matter, of which all sensible bodies are composed. There will hence be two kinds of matter, one which provides the stuff to all sensible bodies, and of which all particles have the same [high] density [...]; the other kind of matter will be that of which the subtle fluid, which causes gravity, and which we name ether, is composed of. It is probable that this matter has always the same degree of density, but that this degree is incomparably smaller than that of the first kind.”

L. Euler, “Recherches physiques sur la nature des moindres parties de la matiere,” in Leonhardi Euleri Opera Omnia, Series Tertia, Pars Prima (B. G. Teubner, Leipzig and Bern 1911), pp. 3–15

“Those who attribute gravity to an attractive force of the Earth base their opinion mainly on the fact that otherwise no origin could be displayed for this force. But since we proved that all bodies are surrounded with ether and are pressed by the elastic force of the latter, we do not need to search elsewhere the origin of gravity. Only if the pressure of the ether would be everywhere the same, which assignment is indistinguishable from that of its equilibrium, would the bodies be equally pressed from every side, and thus would not be induced in any motion. But if we assume that the ether around the Earth is not in equilibrium, and that instead its pressure becomes smaller as one comes closer to the Earth, then any given body must experience a stronger pressure downwards on its superior surface that it does upwards on its inferior surface; it follows that the downwards pressure will have the advantage and hence that the body will really be pushed downwards, which effect we call gravity, and the downwards-pushing force the weight of the body.”

L. Euler, “Von der Schwere und den Kraften so auf die himmlischen Korper wirken,” in Leonhardi Euleri Opera Omnia, Series Tertia, Pars Prima (B. G. Teubner, Leipzig and Bern 1911), pp. 149–156

(translation by Dr. M. Arminjon)

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2018, 06:29:26 PM »
Blah, blah, blah...

Take notice, you have produced NOTHING!

You can write about it all you want...you can clamor on and on and on...

In the end, even if you could do as you claim, your purty model would only be based on Newtonian physics (per your own claim) and include nothing of Kepler or Einstein.

If it was easy to make, we would already have it.

We do not.

Therefore, the science you proudly support and claim as gospel is INCORRECT and a bald-faced lie!
Why do you claim that I need all Kepler, Newtonian and Einstein physics? Why should we use all together? Explain what Kepler provides that Newtonian does not, explain why we need Einstein to simulate our tiny solar system?

You demand as much as you possibly can, because your only goal is to proclaim it is impossible. You demand without putting in any of the effort you require of the opposition. I've met the demands of several FEers, provided 3d models and all, but I would never do it for a demanding person as you.

totallackey

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2018, 07:47:41 PM »
Blah, blah, blah...

Take notice, you have produced NOTHING!

You can write about it all you want...you can clamor on and on and on...

In the end, even if you could do as you claim, your purty model would only be based on Newtonian physics (per your own claim) and include nothing of Kepler or Einstein.

If it was easy to make, we would already have it.

We do not.

Therefore, the science you proudly support and claim as gospel is INCORRECT and a bald-faced lie!
Why do you claim that I need all Kepler, Newtonian and Einstein physics? Why should we use all together? Explain what Kepler provides that Newtonian does not, explain why we need Einstein to simulate our tiny solar system?

You demand as much as you possibly can, because your only goal is to proclaim it is impossible. You demand without putting in any of the effort you require of the opposition. I've met the demands of several FEers, provided 3d models and all, but I would never do it for a demanding person as you.
Do it for your fellow RE adherent then...

You are aware that Kepler and Newton used empirical observations of the astronomical bodies to derive their models right? You're probably aware that Newton was left perplexed with a tiny deviation in the behavior of Mercury that didn't match his model. And you may have heard the story of how Einstein finally fixed the model for Mercury with GR.
As you can see, Newton by his lonesome, Kepler by his lonesome, and Einstein by his lonesome does not cut the mustard...

Like I wrote earlier, you got bupkus...

Rama Set

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2018, 09:07:10 PM »
Blah, blah, blah...

Take notice, you have produced NOTHING!

You can write about it all you want...you can clamor on and on and on...

In the end, even if you could do as you claim, your purty model would only be based on Newtonian physics (per your own claim) and include nothing of Kepler or Einstein.

If it was easy to make, we would already have it.

We do not.

Therefore, the science you proudly support and claim as gospel is INCORRECT and a bald-faced lie!
Why do you claim that I need all Kepler, Newtonian and Einstein physics? Why should we use all together? Explain what Kepler provides that Newtonian does not, explain why we need Einstein to simulate our tiny solar system?

You demand as much as you possibly can, because your only goal is to proclaim it is impossible. You demand without putting in any of the effort you require of the opposition. I've met the demands of several FEers, provided 3d models and all, but I would never do it for a demanding person as you.
Do it for your fellow RE adherent then...

You are aware that Kepler and Newton used empirical observations of the astronomical bodies to derive their models right? You're probably aware that Newton was left perplexed with a tiny deviation in the behavior of Mercury that didn't match his model. And you may have heard the story of how Einstein finally fixed the model for Mercury with GR.
As you can see, Newton by his lonesome, Kepler by his lonesome, and Einstein by his lonesome does not cut the mustard...

Like I wrote earlier, you got bupkus...

You apparently misunderstand the content of these theories.  Kepler's laws can be derived from Newton's laws, they are essentially equivalent.  Any calculation you wish to produce with either Newton's or Kepler's laws can be produced with GR.  GR is the only theory that you need request.  If you go back through the forum history, you will see that I provided with documentation on a model of the solar system that used GR, so perhaps go have a look at that and then come back and discuss?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2018, 10:03:13 PM »
It has also been alleged that the seemingly simple math used in Astronomical calculation textbooks are "really" based on keplerian orbital dynamics. This article addresses that.

I have collected a number of resources showing that the perverted myth that the Round Earth Theory has been validated, to be false. I ask that any challenger in opposition demonstrates with real evidence that astronomy can predict the motions of the planets as they are described in the Round Earth Theory. More evidence than a link to an obscure pdf or unverified model. It will need to be demonstrated that a model, according to the geometry of the heliocentric system, can predict any positions of the planets at all!

an ephemeris is a table of positions of celestial objects like stars and planets and such.  these tables are derived from models of planetary positions.  one of the most widely used is a model called VSOP87.  btw this is the model from which NASA's eclipse tables are derived.

Planetary theories in rectangular and spherical variables - VSOP 87 solutions: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1988A&A...202..309B
Numerical expressions for precession formulae and mean elements for the Moon and the planets: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994A&A...282..663S

here's a more readable overview that includes source code and instructions for using VSOP87 output positions: http://neoprogrammics.com/vsop87/index.html

Quote
In the simplest terms, the VSOP87 theory can be described as a long-term mathematical model of the solar system, specifically, the orbits of the major planets from Mercury to Neptune.
...
To compute the apparent positions of the planets as viewed from Earth, we first need to know where the planets and the Earth are in their orbits at the same moment.  This is the first and most laborious step in computing the apparent geocentric positions of the planets.
...
All the VSOP87 series do essentially the same thing.  They compute the co-ordinates of the planets for a given moment.
...
These are the raw, instantaneous, geometric, heliocentric co-ordinates from which the apparent geocentric ecliptical and equatorial co-ordinates and distance are subsequently derived.  By geometric co-ordinates we mean that no corrections for the location of the observer have yet been applied, such as for parallax, light-time, aberration, etc.  This is the actual location of the planet in space, not its apparent location to the eye.

From what I have read about VSOP the designers have done the following:

Step 1: Take tables of positions of body in the sky, its patterns and trends
 |
 |--Step 2: Convert position in the sky to a presumed heliocentric value
      \_ Step 2a: Try to predict what the heliocentric position of the body will be in the future
            \_Optional Step: Publish the "known" details of the body about the properties of its heliocentric "orbit" in books and teach it to school children.

Step 3: Create a coordinate for the body in the sky to be found on a future date.

The question is, Is Step 3 based on the data from Step 1 or Step 2?

Since the analytical Three Body Problem is impossible, and its limited numerical and restricted solutions make crazy paths (as seen in the article in the OP), let alone a system with dozens of bodies, all of which would cause crazy chaos, and the simplest of motions in the simplest system on paper being beyond the ability of the greatest minds of human history, I would say that Step 3 is likely based on Step 1.

I will continue to look into it, however, and try to point it out.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 11:44:02 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2018, 11:33:23 PM »
VSOP may be a NASA thing, so tricks may be involved when analyzing this.

We read the following at http://www.lizard-tail.com/isana/lab/starlitnight/extra/vsop87/vsop87.rb

Quote
The main version of VSOP87 is similar to the previous theory VSOP82.
In the both cases the constants of integration have been determined by
fitting to the numerical integration DE200 of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

JPL is a NASA facility. Then, when looking at the DE200 wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Propulsion_Laboratory_Development_Ephemeris

Quote
The method of special perturbations was applied, using numerical integration to solve the n-body problem, in effect putting the entire Solar System into motion in the computer's memory, accounting for all relevant physical laws

Interesting!

The icing on the cake:

Quote
Available documentation is sketchy

Yes, quite curious, indeed, for something that has solved the most vexing problems in mathematics, physics, and astronomy for hundreds of years.

Who was it that won the Nobel Prize for that?

I now go to download this wonder.

ftp://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/pub/eph/planets/README.txt

Oh, darn it. They are only giving out the planetary position data in the sky. It seems that this wonder of Astronomy, Mathematics, Classical Mechanics, Celestial Mechanics, and the solution to Chaos Theory itself, will have to stay locked away from the world at the JPL.  :(
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 05:53:50 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2018, 01:51:20 AM »
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2148074-infamous-three-body-problem-has-over-a-thousand-new-solutions/

Quote
Infamous three-body problem has over a thousand new solutions

For more than 300 years, mathematicians have puzzled over the three-body problem – the question of how three objects orbit one another according to Newton’s laws. Now, there are 1223 new solutions to the conundrum, more than doubling the current number of possibilities.

No single equation can predict how three bodies will move in relation to one another and whether their orbits will repeat or devolve into chaos. Mathematicians must test each specific scenario to see if the objects will stay bound in orbit or be flung away.

The new solutions were found when researchers at Shanghai Jiaotong University in China tested 16 million different orbits using a supercomputer.

All the fresh orbits found are periodic. This means that each object, whether it’s a planet or a proton, ends up where it first began its orbit, with their paths forming three intertwined, closed loops.

“It is impressive that they’ve made the list a lot longer,” says Robert Vanderbei at Princeton University in New Jersey – though he adds that there is “basically an unlimited number of orbits”, so it may be overkill if anyone sought to find them all.

Perhaps the most important application of the three-body problem is in astronomy, for helping researchers figure out how three stars, a star with a planet that has a moon, or any other set of three celestial objects can maintain a stable orbit.

But these new orbits rely on conditions that are somewhere between unlikely and impossible for a real system to satisfy. In all of them, for example, two of the three bodies have exactly the same mass and they all remain in the same plane.

Knot-like paths

In addition, the researchers did not test the orbits’ stability. It’s possible that the tiniest disturbance in space or rounding error in the equations could rip the objects away from one another.

“These orbits have nothing to do with astronomy, but you’re solving these equations and you’re getting something beautiful,” says Vanderbei.

Aside from giving us a thousand pretty pictures of knot-like orbital paths, the new three-body solutions also mark a starting point for finding even more possible orbits, and eventually figuring out the whole range of winding paths that three objects can follow around one another.

This is kind of the zeroth step. Then the question becomes, how is the space of all possible positions and velocities filled up by solutions?” says Richard Montgomery at the University of California, Santa Cruz. “These simple orbits are kind of like a skeleton to build the whole system up from.”

Gee, someone had better tell them that NASA already has the Three Body Problem all figured out and can perfectly model the Solar System.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 12:29:57 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2018, 02:57:22 AM »
From what I have read about VSOP the designers have done the following:
then you didn't read any of it very carefully.  you don't have to read all of it.  start with the abstracts.  or read the quotes i already posted.

peruse sections 2, 3, and 4.1.  vsop is a semi-analytic model of the solar system that takes as its input the orbital parameters of the planets (semi-major axis, distance from sun, eccentricity, inclination, etc.) and outputs their heliocentric positions in cartesian coordinates.  section 4.1 even explicitly says "We must first solve Kepler's equation in order to get the expressions of the variables X, Y, Z."

stuff about n-body problems
you don't understand the "problem" of the n-body problem in physics.  it's not that these problems are intractable or unsolvable; it's that they don't have analytic solutions.  that's not the same as saying they can't be solved.  it just means that there's no y=f(x) type expression that will tell you exactly how the system will evolve to an arbitrary level of precision.

let's suppose i have a proton and an electron some distance from one another.  there is an analytic solution, coulomb's law, that will tell me the force on each particle.  there's another analytic solution, newton's 420th law, that will tell me the acceleration of each particle, and so on and so on.

now let's suppose i have 69 particles (some protons, some electrons) arbitrarily arranged in space.  there is no analytic solution that will tell me exactly how the system will evolve over time.  but, since i can find the force between two particles, i can solve my analytic expression for every pair of particles and sum them all up.  i let my system evolve over a tiny time-step, then calculate the forces again, then let my system evolve a bit, etc.  that's what a numerical integration is. 

for example:
https://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0111045
http://lnfm1.sai.msu.ru/~rastor/Books/Heggie_&_Hut-Gravitational_Million_Body_Problem.pdf
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2018, 03:48:39 AM »
Gary, did you see those knotted path the moon took around the earth in my Celestial Mechanics article under Best of the Best?

Those are numerical solutions to the Three Body Problem in Celestial Mechanics as applied to the Earth-Moon-Sun system. Those are numerical methods with thousands of computed steps. That is the best they can do. Astronomers are unable to make a stable three body problem that looks anything like what the heliocentric system suggests.

The best that can be done are numerically computed orbits like this:

http://fem.um.es/Ejs/CRC_examples/Simulations/ArenstorfOrbit_Arenstorf_Orbits.html

Quote


"Arenstorf orbits are closed trajectories of the restricted three-body problem. ... The computation of these orbits is very sensible to small errors and are a good test for the accuracy of numerical methods for solving Ordinary Differential Equations."

As the article Infamous three-body problem has over a thousand new solutions states, astronomers and mathematicians are still at the "zeroth step." They cannot make a stable heliocentric system with numerical three body problem solutions.

The stable orbits they compute numerically with a super computer produces nothing but a mess of knotty orbits.

Yet NASA has a secret working model of the Solar System, the heliocentric solution to the n-body problems, which can simulate all physical laws of the Solar System, which they are keeping privately to themselves?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 02:02:50 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2018, 04:15:29 AM »
From what I have read about VSOP the designers have done the following:
then you didn't read any of it very carefully.  you don't have to read all of it.  start with the abstracts.  or read the quotes i already posted.

peruse sections 2, 3, and 4.1.  vsop is a semi-analytic model of the solar system that takes as its input the orbital parameters of the planets (semi-major axis, distance from sun, eccentricity, inclination, etc.) and outputs their heliocentric positions in cartesian coordinates.  section 4.1 even explicitly says "We must first solve Kepler's equation in order to get the expressions of the variables X, Y, Z."

VOPS may produce some heliocentric interpretations. But what evidence is there to suggest that they are using those heliocentric concepts to predict the position of bodies in the sky?

There needs to be validation. How do you know that any prediction based on VOPS is done so based on heliocentric coordinates, rather than the geocentric (as seen from the earth) patterns the VOPS application is making those heliocentric coordinates from?

This program seems only good enough to tell us a few things about how a few things should be under the Heliocentric System, which astronomers then proceed to publish as fact about that model.

The numerous n-body problems in celestial mechanics shows that this application cannot be predicting future events based on the motions of a heliocentric system.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 12:59:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2018, 07:42:52 AM »
This page was published in advance of the 2017 solar eclipse.

https://eclipses.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEmono/TSE2017/TSE2017.html

It includes this graphic.



Note the times included, how it divides the eclipse up into 10 minute segments, how those segments vary in size across the surface, how the percentage of eclipse varies according to latitude, how this varies between northern and southern hemispheres since the subsolar point is above the equator, and, most notably - how all this is taken into account according to the globe.

The eclipse occurred, exactly as predicted, bang on time, in exactly the predicted place. Nobody saw anything which varied from this.

How would this happen, other than by the mechanics of a globe being taken into account?
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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2018, 10:17:16 AM »
The upcoming 'blood moon' eclipse will be visible to those in the African/Indian region, primarily. I'll get a limited view of it, since I'm in the UK, but America will not see it at all.



Tom, why would this be the case, but for the fact that America is on the wrong side of the globe to see it?

If you can explain it any other way, please do.
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Re: Round Earth Celestial Mechanics Cannot Predict the Solar System
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2018, 10:51:10 AM »
You apparently misunderstand the content of these theories.  Kepler's laws can be derived from Newton's laws, they are essentially equivalent.  Any calculation you wish to produce with either Newton's or Kepler's laws can be produced with GR.  GR is the only theory that you need request.  If you go back through the forum history, you will see that I provided with documentation on a model of the solar system that used GR, so perhaps go have a look at that and then come back and discuss?
Maybe you can actually produce what you state you have and then come back and discuss.

If GR was all there was to it, then Newton and Kepler go bye-bye...

Did you see anyone waving with a tear in their eye?