pj1

What would it take for you to change your mind?
« on: July 12, 2018, 10:13:44 AM »
Clearly many, many people believe the FE theory. And many don't.  I'm interested to know what it would take to change your mind.  Unfortunately, purported 'Facts' can be subjective based on our interpretation of the evidence, so what would it take to completely convince you that the Earth is a globe / flat, depending on your POV?

1. Personally going to space?  A prominent FEer going and reporting back?
2. A trip to find the ice wall? look beyond it?
3. ???

Thanks!
PJ

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2018, 10:23:32 AM »
This question is asked again and again and again.


Dear Flat Earthers, tell us what would change your mind, so I can make endless threads about that one topic.


Its OK, that people don't think what you think. Its very normal. Without it we couldn't have democracy. Everyone would want to marry the exact same woman. We'd all drive the exact same car, wear the same clothes and decide to use the exact same coffee shop at the exact same time in the exact same city that we all decided was the best place to live. I don't care that you think the earth is round. And I'm not going to insist you change your mind about it.

Why don't you instead start from "What would it take for me to change my mind and think the earth is flat?". A far more fruitful exercise where you come out of it knowing more about yourself ... rather than more about what motivates a bunch of lunatics on the internet.
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pj1

Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2018, 10:25:59 AM »
I was actually asking the question in both directions, because I'm genuinely interested.

What's the point in a forum where a person is berated for asking a question (in their very first post)?

pj1

Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2018, 10:28:09 AM »
This question is asked again and again and again.


Dear Flat Earthers, tell us what would change your mind, so I can make endless threads about that one topic.


Its OK, that people don't think what you think. Its very normal. Without it we couldn't have democracy. Everyone would want to marry the exact same woman. We'd all drive the exact same car, wear the same clothes and decide to use the exact same coffee shop at the exact same time in the exact same city that we all decided was the best place to live. I don't care that you think the earth is round. And I'm not going to insist you change your mind about it.

Why don't you instead start from "What would it take for me to change my mind and think the earth is flat?". A far more fruitful exercise where you come out of it knowing more about yourself ... rather than more about what motivates a bunch of lunatics on the internet.

also... surely the fact that I've joined a forum means that I'm looking for evidence ?

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2018, 11:01:17 AM »
I was actually asking the question in both directions,

You didn't ask the question in both directions.

because I'm genuinely interested.
How interested? Interested enough to use the search function?
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5019.msg97240#msg97240
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6996.0


What's the point in a forum where a person is berated for asking a question (in their very first post)?
Depends on the question. If the question is "help me understand how I can badger you with endless posts because you don't think what I think", probably not going to rack up much of a discussion. If it is "this is how I feel about topic x which I've been thinking about and here's some things I discovered about it"  ... now we can look at the topic together. I didn't like your question because it just looks like a clumsy trap, rather than an honest exploration of ideas.

Also if that is your definition of berated, you've led a sheltered life.

But fine. I'd like to go on a rocket and get into orbit to see for myself. That would change my mind. ... Where are you going to go with that? Are you Elon Musk? Are you going to give me a ride in a shapceship, Elon? When can I go, Elon? Also, what should I pack for the trip?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 11:09:08 AM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2018, 11:15:42 AM »
I was actually asking the question in both directions,

You didn't ask the question in both directions.

Yes, he did.

what would it take to completely convince you that the Earth is a globe / flat, depending on your POV?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 11:18:41 AM by Tumeni »
==============================
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2018, 11:17:36 AM »
Its OK, that people don't think what you think. Its very normal. Without it we couldn't have democracy. Everyone would want to marry the exact same woman. We'd all drive the exact same car, wear the same clothes and decide to use the exact same coffee shop at the exact same time in the exact same city that we all decided was the best place to live. I don't care that you think the earth is round. And I'm not going to insist you change your mind about it.
Those are all terrible examples. Or rather, they're very good examples of things which are subjective. So yes, there will be different opinions about these things.
But the shape of the earth is not subjective. It is what it is. There should not be different opinions about these things. Not all opinions are equally valid.

To answer the original question, I guess for me I'd have to see some really compelling evidence for a flat earth, that the whole space industry is bogus. And some explanation as to how the airline industry has been getting us all round the "disc" while thinking it's a globe. A flat earth map that actually works in terms of distances between places and the relationship between them would be nice too.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

pj1

Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2018, 11:19:56 AM »
"what would it take to completely convince you that the Earth is a globe / flat, depending on your POV?"

That's literally asking in both directions, right?  You see it as a "clumsy trap" because you're biased from past convo's. Don't presume my motivations are nefarious.

The reason I ask, is that I've been reading for hours and I've not seen anything that's convinced me, other than base instincts. So what my question alludes to is whether the theory can ever be unanimously proven/disproved.

For example, if I run with your [Baby Thork] childish ramblings for a second... you get taken into space by Elon Musk. You take pics, vids, live stream the disk/globe, and there will *still* be people here who won't believe you. So I'm far more interested in the psychology than the science.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2018, 11:46:13 AM »
I'd like to go on a rocket and get into orbit to see for myself. That would change my mind. ...

OK, let's extend that line of reasoning.

Going into space would maybe convince you.

So ... there's a history of manned spaceflight going back to 1961, and unmanned space flight back to 1957. One source suggests that as of June 2018, a total of 561 people have gone to space. There's all manner of proof that they have done this, in the form of photos, video, documentation, data, even conversations between some of them and radio amateurs on the ground.

If you suggest that you would be convinced by going yourself, why do you routinely disbelieve all 561 of those who say they've gone, andeverything involved in proving that?

If one of your friends comes back from a holiday in (say) Tibet, do you routinely insist that nobody has gone to Tibet until you've made the trip?
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2018, 12:13:06 PM »
Clearly many, many people believe the FE theory. And many don't.  I'm interested to know what it would take to change your mind.  Unfortunately, purported 'Facts' can be subjective based on our interpretation of the evidence, so what would it take to completely convince you that the Earth is a globe / flat, depending on your POV?

1. Personally going to space?  A prominent FEer going and reporting back?
2. A trip to find the ice wall? look beyond it?
3. ???

Thanks!
PJ
To change my mind, I would need a lot of things or a solid proof.
Lets start with the solid proofs:
1: proof of the filament/dome, someone travelling to the Antarctica, traversing it and snapping some pictures of this supposed dome.
2: a god should tell us, if he is that powerful, then it should easily be doable.

Then onto the logic that would need to be clarified properly:
1: be able to define a workable FE perspective which can be verified.
2: explain all observations in the sky with a workable model.
3: a working map.
4-?: be able to predict reality, as currently the heliocentric model can predict nearly everything, while the FE model can predict absolutely nothing.

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2018, 12:57:43 PM »
If one of your friends comes back from a holiday in (say) Tibet, do you routinely insist that nobody has gone to Tibet until you've made the trip?
I went with my mate on a stag trip to Amsterdam. He told his future wife we went to Cornwall. All the lads kept this conspiracy going to this day. We all kept the secret. She has every reason to suspect he didn't go to Cornwall, but she never questioned it to find out the truth. I don't want to wake up one morning to find NASA has been eating someone else's fanny in a dirty bar in Holland, when they told me they went to the moon.  >:(

Just because they told you they went into space isn't evidence that they did it.
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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2018, 01:05:38 PM »
Just because they told you they went into space isn't evidence that they did it.
Well, it is evidence. Most court cases are largely based on witness testimony.
And the difference is your mate had a pretty obvious reason to lie. What reason do hundreds of astronauts over a span of around 60 years and a handful of space tourists have for lying? The space tourists in particular, even if you think that astronauts are recruited to part of some conspiracy, what stake to space tourists have in this?
Which brings us back to witness testimony, if in a court case it's one person's word against another it might be hard to convict someone. If there are dozens or even hundreds of witnesses though, it makes a stronger case.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline JRowe

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2018, 01:26:22 PM »
And the difference is your mate had a pretty obvious reason to lie. What reason do hundreds of astronauts over a span of around 60 years and a handful of space tourists have for lying? The space tourists in particular, even if you think that astronauts are recruited to part of some conspiracy, what stake to space tourists have in this?
Prestige and politics.

Look at the history of space travel. It literally began as one-upmanship, US vs Russia propaganda. Let's suppose that this field they'd pinned so much hope of proving their superiority turned out to be something that was actually impossible, that each and every attempt they had failed. Would they give up, would they keep throwing money away, especially given they'd see rumours their rivals were going to succeed?
No, they'd lie. Create a huge patriotic fervour, get the reputation boost, play politics. Russia pulled off a magic trick and said they went into space, the US found a way to one-up that with "Oh yeah? Well we went to the moon!"
By this point it's become borderline nationalistic. Space travel began as a way to establish a country's superiority, and even now it gets wrapped up in that same passion. No honest discussion for people that try to debate it, just blind dislike and mocking. No one dared question it at the time of the cold war, and so it sunk into the public consciousness, got treated as real so much that people just refuse to question. Too late to back out and admit to the lie now, especially with the money that gets funneled into space agencies that they can funnel away into private accounts and slush funds.

Plus space tourists get prestige, bragging rights, you name it.
Honestly it's really not that bigger deal. Any administrator with half a brain could spin things so that tourists or, hell, I could make an argument for bloody Armstrong not knowing space travel is fake. Just comes down to the story you tell. Make it so they don't think they're keeping that much of a secret and who cares?
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2018, 01:27:24 PM »
Just because they told you they went into space isn't evidence that they did it.

It is when they tell you in tandem with shedloads of evidence that they did. Lunar samples, photos, videos, results from experiments deployed on the Moon, photos of the far side of the Moon.

Much of the orbital travel can be confirmed by you, the amateur observer, right here on Earth.

You can download data directly from weather satellites. You can buy radio amateur gear with which you can converse with the astronauts on the ISS as they go over you. You can buy tracking telescopes which will track orbital satellites for you. You can watch the satellites with a simple astronomical telescope.

561 people will tell you they went to space. If they all stood up in court to say so, and presented absolutely all the data, photos, videos, etc associated with their missions, what could you muster to categorically disprove them?
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2018, 01:33:54 PM »
Let's suppose that this field they'd pinned so much hope of proving their superiority turned out to be something that was actually impossible ... .... went to the moon!"

All supposition, which pales in comparison to the evidence.

"By this point it's become borderline nationalistic.

Yet much of the current space activity is carried out by private corporations, not national space agencies....

Space travel began as a way to establish a country's superiority ... money that gets funneled into space agencies that they can funnel away into private accounts and slush funds.

Have you proof of any of these slush funds, or is this more supposition?
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==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline JRowe

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2018, 01:36:48 PM »
Let's suppose that this field they'd pinned so much hope of proving their superiority turned out to be something that was actually impossible ... .... went to the moon!"

All supposition, which pales in comparison to the evidence.

"By this point it's become borderline nationalistic.

Yet much of the current space activity is carried out by private corporations, not national space agencies....

Space travel began as a way to establish a country's superiority ... money that gets funneled into space agencies that they can funnel away into private accounts and slush funds.

Have you proof of any of these slush funds, or is this more supposition?

Yes, slush funds are always public knowledge. Supposition is the only tool scientists have, create a hypothesis, see if it matches with the available data and whatever data you can gather. This certainly seems to, way more than the alternative.
Private corporations still need to save face, if they fail at what's meant to be doable over and over what else would you epxect them to do?
Your 'evidence' is 'they say so.' I tried to have a discussion with you about it and you refused to actually contribute anything worth debate.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2018, 01:51:33 PM »
Your 'evidence' is 'they say so.' I tried to have a discussion with you about it and you refused to actually contribute anything worth debate.

Your evidence is "Let's suppose ...", "They could ...", "They might ..."

You have nothing but hypotheses.

I state "They say so" then provide citations of evidence to support the say-so.

But we're off-topic now.

What would convince me the world was flat? 

Nothing at all at the moment. Nobody has presented any worthwhile evidence of such. I would take any new evidence on its merits at the time. Whatcha got, flatties?
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline JRowe

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2018, 02:00:12 PM »
Your evidence is "Let's suppose ...", "They could ...", "They might ..."

You have nothing but hypotheses.

I state "They say so" then provide citations of evidence to support the say-so.

But we're off-topic now.
So you change the topic to this, again, then once more balk at defending it. If you don't want to discuss something stop bringing it up already.
My evidence is to look at an alternative chain of events, then compare that with the party line; so yes, I have to look at possibilities because that's what happens when you don't blindly follow. See which works, see which makes more sense. pretty trivial to see that claims of space travel simply don't work.

But, sure, what would it take to convince me?
Good old fashioned science. Observations which could not coexist with each other on a flat Earth, maybe that public space travel we've been promised for a good few years now, or refinements to RET that stop it relying on as many assumptions as it does.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

pj1

Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2018, 02:22:32 PM »
Thanks, all, for your responses.

I suspect it's only a matter of time before technology allows us to prove it one way or another (even school kids are sending iphones up into the atmostphere attached to weather baloons!).  I wonder whether there are any millionaire FE or RE who'd book a ticket with Virgin Intergalactic...  :-B


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEVCG3brjq4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66A5pzEiDDM
https://news.sky.com/story/science-students-launch-iphone-into-space-10397969

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Offline Baby Thork

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Re: What would it take for you to change your mind?
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2018, 02:30:21 PM »
Well that's just it ... Branson promised in 2004 that he would be flying passengers for a first flight in 2007. We are now a staggering 14 years later and still no one has had a ride in a spaceship, despite handing over huge deposits many years ago.
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