Offline Westprog

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2018, 11:24:26 AM »
The bipolar model just produces the ancient water pouring over the edge model ..

Well not if all the points on the circumference are the very same point in reality. The water will be held up by itself. This of course is no less absurd, if not a lot more.

I think the flirtation with bipolar will go away. There's something ingenious about equating Antarctica with the ice wall, so that you go South and encounter the edge. This model allows anyone to head off to the edge and verify for themselves that it isn't an edge, and that they end up going from South America to New Zealand instead of falling off the waterfall.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2018, 12:37:18 PM »
There are a few solutions to the circumference problem, the first is that the Earth is potential much larger than we suspect, perhaps even infinite. This solves the water pouring over the edge. The solution to the circumference being one coordinate point on a globe is that the RE coordinate system is incorrect.

Both these solutions are difficult to accept but there they are.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline edby

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2018, 02:34:32 PM »
The solution to the circumference being one coordinate point on a globe is that the RE coordinate system is incorrect.
I don't think so - don't FE and RE agree totally on lat long positions? Long is measured in 15 degrees per hour, since we all agree there are 24 hours in a day, and that there is always high noon somewhere. Latitude, we agree on the angle to the pole star. So the coordinate system exhausts all the points on the earth that there are.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2018, 05:26:43 PM »
The solution to the circumference being one coordinate point on a globe is that the RE coordinate system is incorrect.
I don't think so - don't FE and RE agree totally on lat long positions? Long is measured in 15 degrees per hour, since we all agree there are 24 hours in a day, and that there is always high noon somewhere. Latitude, we agree on the angle to the pole star. So the coordinate system exhausts all the points on the earth that there are.

It depends on the FEer and also on the day I think.  Tom certainly disputes the validity lat and long as it applies to a FE.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Westprog

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2018, 12:55:58 PM »
The solution to the circumference being one coordinate point on a globe is that the RE coordinate system is incorrect.
I don't think so - don't FE and RE agree totally on lat long positions? Long is measured in 15 degrees per hour, since we all agree there are 24 hours in a day, and that there is always high noon somewhere. Latitude, we agree on the angle to the pole star. So the coordinate system exhausts all the points on the earth that there are.

It depends on the FEer and also on the day I think.  Tom certainly disputes the validity lat and long as it applies to a FE.

It's always possible to dispute the validity of anything. The basis of the FE movement is refusing to accept anything - optical theory, basic physics, the evidence of one's own eyes, the existence of Australia. Latitude and longitude are easy to deny.

However, even when it's denied, the existence of latitude and longitude as an objective fact of human existence remains. It can just about be shoehorned into the monopole theory, if we ignore everything we know about travelling in the Southern hemisphere, but it's impossible to square with bipolar.

Offline Westprog

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2018, 03:38:51 PM »
Not so much a theory as a diagnosis.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2018, 03:56:33 PM »
Not so much a theory as a diagnosis.

That's a tad harsh.   I think of it more of a religion.  It's like trying to argue with someone that takes the Bible literally.  Ask them, "do you believe every word?", "Yes," they say.  Then read them some wacky passages and see how fast they stammer about context or change the rules.  Same deal here.  A form of delusion yes.
Nothing Guest has ever said should be taken as representative of anything other than Guest's own delusions opinions.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2018, 04:25:32 PM »
What rules did we change? None of the Flat Earth maps were presented with information that research had gone into the continental layouts.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2018, 08:56:25 PM »
I hadn't contemplated the bi-polar map proposal before, but when I thought about plotting sunset azimuth and the actual location of the sun on the earth using the various flat earth proposed maps, the bi-polar one really stood out.

Tonight's sunset in Southern California is at 0226 UTC on a 285° bearing.
At that time, the sun will be over the Western Pacific, east of the Philippines.




As noted earlier in this thread, that would mean that the 180° longitude, light/space is subject to a "Pac-Man"-ish effect to connect, the degree to which depends on the latitude at the intersection.

Or am I misinterpreting this and the bowed lines of latitude are actually indicators of distortions of space/time such that my red line representing a "straight line" to the sun at sunset actually does curve around the upper edge of the disc and back down to the sun from the northern Pacific?

Once the sun crosses the equator in about a month, the problems with sun location and it's apparent view from the northern "hemisphere" becomes even more complex. I think this map creates more problems than it solves.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2018, 10:53:59 PM »
I agree Bobby, this map solves a couple problems over the Gleason variants, but introduces many more.  Of course, this is just an example of a bipolar map, not the real one.  Inexplicability, there is no real one.  However, here are a few more problems this map introduces over a Gleason variant:

The Gleason maps can't explain looking south and seeing certain constellations.  For example, when in New Zealand looking south you will see the Southern Cross.  When in South Africa looking south you will see the Southern Cross.  On the Gleason map New Zealand and South Africa are on opposite sides of the plane, you would be looking in nearly opposite directions, it is not possible to see the same constellations.  This example bipolar map doesn't solve this problem in the slightest, in South Africa looking south your gaze passes over Antarctica, then approximately over New Zealand where you would see the Southern Cross.  When in New Zealand, looking south your gaze would pass over Antarctica, then it continue north approximately over Africa and you would expect to see the North Star (or a constellation directly above it).  We know, however, that looking south in New Zealand you do see the Southern Cross.  This example map suggest you would look East in Australia to see the Southern Cross.  No matter how you arrange this map there will be southern continents that could not look south and see the Southern Cross.

On the Wiki there is a "Preferred" bipolar map.  It is no better, I have included it below.  In North America you would have to look northwest to see the North Star.

Air travel is not addressed either without a Pac-Man effect or significantly longer routes.  For example Buenos Aries to Sydney.  Shipping lanes from the Panama Canal to Asia are similarly difficult to resolve.  How does circumnavigation work in any variant of this map?

What route does the sun or moon take on any version of a bi-polar map?  I can't fathom how this could happen.  I can follow along with the Gleason variants as they have minimal answers to sun/moon location and circumnavigation, but a bi-polar map can't use the same solutions.


I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

Offline Pinky

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2018, 11:25:48 AM »
The bipolar model just produces the ancient water pouring over the edge model ..

Well not if all the points on the circumference are the very same point in reality.

Do you realize that you have just committed the thought-crime of arguing that Earth must have a curvature?

Offline Pinky

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Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2018, 11:31:32 AM »
It seems that someone has decided to look at the Flat Earth books and literature that has been around for the last one hundred years. Aside from the fact that the model is not new at all -- the Bi-Polar model became an official model of the society in the early 1900's under the leadership of Lady Blount shortly after the discovery of the South Magnetic Pole -- its a nice presentation of the basic idea.



The Flat Earth Society of Lady Blount's time (then called the Universal Zetetic Society) didn't provide a map for the Bi-Polar model, however. It appears that he is using Sandokhan's layout, to which he rightfully deserves credit.

If the author did in fact come up with this on his own, he deserves a lot of credit, although it is hard to see how, since the exact same map comes up in Google Image Search when one searches for "Flat Earth Two Pole map" or if one reads our Wiki.

Still, whatever. The author deserves good congratulations on his work on this video. Hopefully it spreads around to the YouTube community. I am glad to see that word is being spread.

Cannot possibly correct. The magnetic poles of Earth are in Canada and Antarctica. If Earth had this weird shape, we would have discovered so centuries ago simply by compass-navigation.

HorstFue

Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2018, 07:29:42 PM »
I hadn't contemplated the bi-polar map proposal before, but when I thought about plotting sunset azimuth and the actual location of the sun on the earth using the various flat earth proposed maps, the bi-polar one really stood out.

Tonight's sunset in Southern California is at 0226 UTC on a 285° bearing.
At that time, the sun will be over the Western Pacific, east of the Philippines.




As noted earlier in this thread, that would mean that the 180° longitude, light/space is subject to a "Pac-Man"-ish effect to connect, the degree to which depends on the latitude at the intersection.

Or am I misinterpreting this and the bowed lines of latitude are actually indicators of distortions of space/time such that my red line representing a "straight line" to the sun at sunset actually does curve around the upper edge of the disc and back down to the sun from the northern Pacific?

Once the sun crosses the equator in about a month, the problems with sun location and it's apparent view from the northern "hemisphere" becomes even more complex. I think this map creates more problems than it solves.

I would say your straight line to the sun is projected into an arc going around the north pole in a similar way as these latitude "loops", but never crossing the edge.
The edge represents a single point: 00°N 180°W.
More interesting is the 00°N, the equator. So the equator is not only the horizontal line at the middle, it's also the complete edge. So if your line does not cross the equator, the projection also does not need to cross the edge.
Indeed any line can have a corresponding projection on the map, without crossing the edge, no Pac-Man effect.
If a line has to cross the equator, the projection will cross the equator somewhere in the middle, and than for the rest of the journey will often follow these loops similar to the latitude loops (or the other way round).
This is quite weird and I cannot imaging, how the "spotlight sun" will work on this chart.

It's really amazing, that these Azimuthal equidistant projection are still the only maps FET presents. This projection by far have the greatest distortions among Globe Earth projections. Even this "Gleason Map" is nothing else than an Azimuthal equidistant projection.
For a flat world, it should be an easy job to provide a map, as no projection is needed.