The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2018, 09:19:12 AM

Title: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2018, 09:19:12 AM
It seems that someone has decided to look at the Flat Earth books and literature that has been around for the last one hundred years. Aside from the fact that the model is not new at all -- the Bi-Polar model became an official model of the society in the early 1900's under the leadership of Lady Blount shortly after the discovery of the South Magnetic Pole -- its a nice presentation of the basic idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K3cD_L4j7U

The Flat Earth Society of Lady Blount's time (then called the Universal Zetetic Society) didn't provide a map for the Bi-Polar model, however. It appears that he is using Sandokhan's layout, to which he rightfully deserves credit.

If the author did in fact come up with this on his own, he deserves a lot of credit, although it is hard to see how, since the exact same map comes up in Google Image Search when one searches for "Flat Earth Two Pole map" or if one reads our Wiki (https://wiki.tfes.org/Layout_of_the_Continents).

Still, whatever. The author deserves good congratulations on his work on this video. Hopefully it spreads around to the YouTube community. I am glad to see that word is being spread.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: inquisitive on July 02, 2018, 11:59:48 AM
Measured distances do not work.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2018, 12:11:30 PM
Measured distances do not work.

The author is demonstrating the model, not the particular map used. Watch the video.

Sandokhan does defend a similar map on the other website.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: inquisitive on July 02, 2018, 12:27:48 PM
Measured distances do not work.

The author is demonstrating the model, not the particular map used. Watch the video.

Sandokhan does defend a similar map on the other website.
A model has to have dimensions.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Baby Thork on July 02, 2018, 01:36:51 PM
Measured distances do not work.

A model has to have dimensions.

Give Tom a break. How is this low content whining of any interest to anyone? Where are your sources, where are your examples, where is your counter argument? Stop vampiring Tom's attention and make some effort in return. Tom wants to discuss the content. Either discuss it or leave his post last, so someone who does can respond. 
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: HorstFue on July 02, 2018, 10:03:00 PM
Measured distances do not work.
Yes, it took me one glance at the picture: Look at the equator! How do you get from Ecuador to New Guinea on this "map"?

And the Sun?
What is the path of the Sun at equinox? Going West over Africa, over South America, moving out to the Pacific and ... uuups, what's this? The map ends here.
Or did the author forget to mention the wormholes at each side of the map? So that the Sun instantaneously reappears at the other side of the "map"? 

That's a common problem with any Flat Earth model: If it's flat it must have some boundaries, borders, edges or similar (e.g. the ice wall). Those borders, edges do not exist on the surface of a sphere.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2018, 10:22:26 PM
Yes, it took me one glance at the picture: Look at the equator! How do you get from Ecuador to New Guinea on this "map"?

The same way you get from LA to Japan on the Monopole model: Travel Westwards.

In the Bi-Polar Model there are two poles. The magnetic field lines resemble something like the field lines of a bar magnet. Essentially something like this, but in three dimensions:

(https://i.imgur.com/Ex3thmV.gif)

The compass aligns itself with the field lines and adjusts itself when one travels Westwards or Eastwards in the Northern or Southern Hemiplane to go around either the North or South poles.

Since the magnetic field lines in magnets wrap around and interconnect, none traveling out into space in an unconnected fashion, traveling North or South at any point will also take you to either the North or South Pole.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: BigGuyWhoKills on July 02, 2018, 10:29:46 PM
This bipolar flat Earth model has at least one problem: the distance between a star in the "northern track" and one in the "southern track" would decrease until the middle of the night, and increase from that point (until local noon, but daylight invalidates such observations).  From someone at the equator, constellations overhead would appear to converge into a smaller shape until midnight, and then "explode" as they pass above them.

Such shape changes would frustrate ancient astronomy (and especially astrology), and would have serious implications for nautical navigation at night.  No such distance changes have ever been observed.

Having said that, it solves some AE problems, and possibly has fewer problems than any other FE model.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 05, 2018, 08:34:56 PM
This bipolar flat Earth model has at least one problem: the distance between a star in the "northern track" and one in the "southern track" would decrease until the middle of the night, and increase from that point (until local noon, but daylight invalidates such observations).  From someone at the equator, constellations overhead would appear to converge into a smaller shape until midnight, and then "explode" as they pass above them.

Such shape changes would frustrate ancient astronomy (and especially astrology), and would have serious implications for nautical navigation at night.  No such distance changes have ever been observed.

Having said that, it solves some AE problems, and possibly has fewer problems than any other FE model.

That is more of a general topic, and not one which deals with this model specifically. See: https://wiki.tfes.org/Constant_Speed_of_the_Sun
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: inquisitive on July 05, 2018, 09:42:23 PM
Yes, it took me one glance at the picture: Look at the equator! How do you get from Ecuador to New Guinea on this "map"?

The same way you get from LA to Japan on the Monopole model: Travel Westwards.

In the Bi-Polar Model there are two poles. The magnetic field lines resemble something like the field lines of a bar magnet. Essentially something like this, but in three dimensions:

(https://i.imgur.com/Ex3thmV.gif)

The compass aligns itself with the field lines and adjusts itself when one travels Westwards or Eastwards in the Northern or Southern Hemiplane to go around either the North or South poles.

Since the magnetic field lines in magnets wrap around and interconnect, none traveling out into space in an unconnected fashion, traveling North or South at any point will also take you to either the North or South Pole.
Please show the path taken.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: edby on July 20, 2018, 09:32:59 AM
This is very similar to the Lambert azimuthal equal-area projection, discovered in 1772.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Lambert_azimuthal_equal-area_projection_SW.jpg)

This accurately represents area in all regions of the sphere, but not anything else. Look particularly at Australia. Is it really that shape?

There will be the same problem with flight times that I mentioned in another thread. Lines of longitude, it is generally agreed, are straight, i.e. are the shortest distance between two points on the same longitude. But this projection makes for a 'quicker' route along the same line, which I don't believe is possible. However, could be a fertile area for FE research, collecting data, making measurements etc.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: SphericalEarther on July 20, 2018, 11:52:28 AM
Yeah, bi-polar map really doesn't work.
You can book direct flights from Los Angeles directly to both Sydney (14h) and Dubai (16h).
On the bi-polar map as presented, the distance to Sydney would approximately double that of the distance to Dubai.

We can even travel between all these locations, nonstop:
LA <> Dubai: 16 hour flight
Dubai <> Sydney: 14 hour flight
Sydney <> LA: 14 hour flight
For some reason, we can travel from LA to Sydney FASTER than from LA to Dubai, almost as though we are living on a globe where we can fly straight over the Pacific Ocean to get between Sydney and LA.

We also know that daytime can be at LA and Sydney at the same time, while EU and Africa is in the nighttime, which would be impossible with a sun on a bi-polar map.

The shape of all continents in the outer part of the bi-polar map are also extremely stretched to a point they do not in any way match their real shape.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: BillO on July 20, 2018, 11:59:56 AM
Yes, it took me one glance at the picture: Look at the equator! How do you get from Ecuador to New Guinea on this "map"?

The same way you get from LA to Japan on the Monopole model: Travel Westwards.

In the Bi-Polar Model there are two poles. The magnetic field lines resemble something like the field lines of a bar magnet. Essentially something like this, but in three dimensions:

(https://i.imgur.com/Ex3thmV.gif)

The compass aligns itself with the field lines and adjusts itself when one travels Westwards or Eastwards in the Northern or Southern Hemiplane to go around either the North or South poles.

Since the magnetic field lines in magnets wrap around and interconnect, none traveling out into space in an unconnected fashion, traveling North or South at any point will also take you to either the North or South Pole.
That won't work as you will just end up at the edge of the bipolar flat earth.  Are you ignoring that?  According to that map you would need to travel east, over Africa.  A bit farther than reality would suggest - implying that map does not represent reality.

Also, lines of magnetic force are 3-dimensional.  Nothing at all like the bendy lines on that horribly distorted flat earth map.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: edby on July 20, 2018, 09:13:42 PM
Yeah, bi-polar map really doesn't work.

I’ve just realised this is the map which requires the famous ‘Pac man’ effect.

The point at 180oW lies at 9 o’clock at the opposite end of the equator to the point 180oE at 3 o’clock. So they must be about 40,000km apart. Yet they are the very same point on the earth’s surface! Likewise the point at 12 o’clock represents the very same point as the one at 6 o’clock. In fact, every point on the circumference of the map represents the very same point as the one diametrically opposite. 4 o’clock=10 o’clock and so on.
See also here (https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/05/02/flat-earthers-genius-new-idea-we-live-in-a-magical-pac-man-world/#387957fc1e5f).
(http://www.logicmuseum.com/w/images/2/2f/Lambert_azimuthal_equal-area_projection_SW.jpg)
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: HorstFue on July 20, 2018, 09:36:55 PM
Yeah, bi-polar map really doesn't work.

I’ve just realised this is the map which requires the famous ‘Pac man’ effect.

... In fact, every point on the circumference of the map represents the very same point as the one diametrically opposite. 4 o’clock=10 o’clock and so on.
It's not every point on the circumference represents it's counterpart on the opposite side.
ALL points on the circumference of this map are the very same point 00°N 180°W, the "anti vernal point".

This is a common problem with all flat map projections I've seen so far, there is at least one singularity [math.] on the chart.
On the unipolar flat earth map it's the south pole: All points on the circumference are the south pole.
On a Mercator projection you even have two singularities, the top and bottom end, the North and the South pole.

BTW. both models presented, the bipolar and unipolar map, are the same Azimuthal projection, only with different center points, the North pole 90°N 000°E and the vernal point 00°N 000°E
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: edby on July 21, 2018, 07:49:35 AM
You are right, and that is extraordinary. Every single point on the circumference of the bipolar map is a different point on the map, but the same point in reality. My head explodes. So the earth cannot possibly be like that.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: BillO on July 21, 2018, 02:08:44 PM
It really does make one stop on ponder the kind of brain that just accepts this sort of incredible inconsistency.  In real science something like this would never be allowed to see the light of day.  The obvious flaws with the Bi-polar model make it useless for any purpose at all - yet it is presented by one of the leading authors of the wiki here as a viable 'solution'.   In reality the distance between Puerto Villamil, Equador and Quito, Equador is a mere 1,391 km.  A trip often taken by visitors to the Galapagos.   However, on that hideous and intellectually insulting abomination the closest distance is eastward, across Africa for a distance of 38,684 km.   ::)

No, I just blew that one...

Lets try again...

In reality the shortest distance between Pinogu and Quito is 17,568 km west.  However, on that hideous and intellectually insulting abomination it is 22,507 km east over Africa.  I'm not sure if you could even get there by traveling west as Quito is just below the equator and Pinogu is just above.  If you could it looks like the distance would be around 80,000 km. :o
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Rama Set on July 21, 2018, 03:46:04 PM
Tom’s silly caveat to this issue is that although this is a viable map, no one is sure of the actual orientation of the continents under such a model.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Westprog on July 22, 2018, 09:00:33 AM
Tom’s silly caveat to this issue is that although this is a viable map, no one is sure of the actual orientation of the continents under such a model.

The monopole flat Earth is ridiculous and obviously wrong, but the bipolar model manages to be far worse. The idea of the ice wall has at least the advantage that most people can't go to Antarctica and the South Pole. The bipolar model just produces the ancient water pouring over the edge model, and has distances and directions even more at odds with everyday experience.

I note that the map is for illustrative purposes only and that the real map does not exist and in fact, cannot exist. There will be no flat Earth map reflecting the distances and directions that we experience because when a model is produced that incorporates them, it forms a sphere.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: edby on July 22, 2018, 09:03:17 AM
The bipolar model just produces the ancient water pouring over the edge model ..

Well not if all the points on the circumference are the very same point in reality. The water will be held up by itself. This of course is no less absurd, if not a lot more.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Westprog on July 22, 2018, 11:24:26 AM
The bipolar model just produces the ancient water pouring over the edge model ..

Well not if all the points on the circumference are the very same point in reality. The water will be held up by itself. This of course is no less absurd, if not a lot more.

I think the flirtation with bipolar will go away. There's something ingenious about equating Antarctica with the ice wall, so that you go South and encounter the edge. This model allows anyone to head off to the edge and verify for themselves that it isn't an edge, and that they end up going from South America to New Zealand instead of falling off the waterfall.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Rama Set on July 22, 2018, 12:37:18 PM
There are a few solutions to the circumference problem, the first is that the Earth is potential much larger than we suspect, perhaps even infinite. This solves the water pouring over the edge. The solution to the circumference being one coordinate point on a globe is that the RE coordinate system is incorrect.

Both these solutions are difficult to accept but there they are.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: edby on July 22, 2018, 02:34:32 PM
The solution to the circumference being one coordinate point on a globe is that the RE coordinate system is incorrect.
I don't think so - don't FE and RE agree totally on lat long positions? Long is measured in 15 degrees per hour, since we all agree there are 24 hours in a day, and that there is always high noon somewhere. Latitude, we agree on the angle to the pole star. So the coordinate system exhausts all the points on the earth that there are.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Rama Set on July 22, 2018, 05:26:43 PM
The solution to the circumference being one coordinate point on a globe is that the RE coordinate system is incorrect.
I don't think so - don't FE and RE agree totally on lat long positions? Long is measured in 15 degrees per hour, since we all agree there are 24 hours in a day, and that there is always high noon somewhere. Latitude, we agree on the angle to the pole star. So the coordinate system exhausts all the points on the earth that there are.

It depends on the FEer and also on the day I think.  Tom certainly disputes the validity lat and long as it applies to a FE.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Westprog on July 23, 2018, 12:55:58 PM
The solution to the circumference being one coordinate point on a globe is that the RE coordinate system is incorrect.
I don't think so - don't FE and RE agree totally on lat long positions? Long is measured in 15 degrees per hour, since we all agree there are 24 hours in a day, and that there is always high noon somewhere. Latitude, we agree on the angle to the pole star. So the coordinate system exhausts all the points on the earth that there are.

It depends on the FEer and also on the day I think.  Tom certainly disputes the validity lat and long as it applies to a FE.

It's always possible to dispute the validity of anything. The basis of the FE movement is refusing to accept anything - optical theory, basic physics, the evidence of one's own eyes, the existence of Australia. Latitude and longitude are easy to deny.

However, even when it's denied, the existence of latitude and longitude as an objective fact of human existence remains. It can just about be shoehorned into the monopole theory, if we ignore everything we know about travelling in the Southern hemisphere, but it's impossible to square with bipolar.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Westprog on July 25, 2018, 03:38:51 PM
Not so much a theory as a diagnosis.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: TomInAustin on July 25, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
Not so much a theory as a diagnosis.

That's a tad harsh.   I think of it more of a religion.  It's like trying to argue with someone that takes the Bible literally.  Ask them, "do you believe every word?", "Yes," they say.  Then read them some wacky passages and see how fast they stammer about context or change the rules.  Same deal here.  A form of delusion yes.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 25, 2018, 04:25:32 PM
What rules did we change? None of the Flat Earth maps were presented with information that research had gone into the continental layouts.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Bobby Shafto on August 21, 2018, 08:56:25 PM
I hadn't contemplated the bi-polar map proposal before, but when I thought about plotting sunset azimuth and the actual location of the sun on the earth using the various flat earth proposed maps, the bi-polar one really stood out.

Tonight's sunset in Southern California is at 0226 UTC on a 285° bearing.
At that time, the sun will be over the Western Pacific, east of the Philippines.


(http://oi64.tinypic.com/2ro71fo.jpg)

As noted earlier in this thread, that would mean that the 180° longitude, light/space is subject to a "Pac-Man"-ish effect to connect, the degree to which depends on the latitude at the intersection.

Or am I misinterpreting this and the bowed lines of latitude are actually indicators of distortions of space/time such that my red line representing a "straight line" to the sun at sunset actually does curve around the upper edge of the disc and back down to the sun from the northern Pacific?

Once the sun crosses the equator in about a month, the problems with sun location and it's apparent view from the northern "hemisphere" becomes even more complex. I think this map creates more problems than it solves.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: MCToon on August 21, 2018, 10:53:59 PM
I agree Bobby, this map solves a couple problems over the Gleason variants, but introduces many more.  Of course, this is just an example of a bipolar map, not the real one.  Inexplicability, there is no real one.  However, here are a few more problems this map introduces over a Gleason variant:

The Gleason maps can't explain looking south and seeing certain constellations.  For example, when in New Zealand looking south you will see the Southern Cross.  When in South Africa looking south you will see the Southern Cross.  On the Gleason map New Zealand and South Africa are on opposite sides of the plane, you would be looking in nearly opposite directions, it is not possible to see the same constellations.  This example bipolar map doesn't solve this problem in the slightest, in South Africa looking south your gaze passes over Antarctica, then approximately over New Zealand where you would see the Southern Cross.  When in New Zealand, looking south your gaze would pass over Antarctica, then it continue north approximately over Africa and you would expect to see the North Star (or a constellation directly above it).  We know, however, that looking south in New Zealand you do see the Southern Cross.  This example map suggest you would look East in Australia to see the Southern Cross.  No matter how you arrange this map there will be southern continents that could not look south and see the Southern Cross.

On the Wiki there is a "Preferred" bipolar map.  It is no better, I have included it below.  In North America you would have to look northwest to see the North Star.

Air travel is not addressed either without a Pac-Man effect or significantly longer routes.  For example Buenos Aries to Sydney.  Shipping lanes from the Panama Canal to Asia are similarly difficult to resolve.  How does circumnavigation work in any variant of this map?

What route does the sun or moon take on any version of a bi-polar map?  I can't fathom how this could happen.  I can follow along with the Gleason variants as they have minimal answers to sun/moon location and circumnavigation, but a bi-polar map can't use the same solutions.


(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/7/7b/Sandokhan_map.png)
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Pinky on August 22, 2018, 11:25:48 AM
The bipolar model just produces the ancient water pouring over the edge model ..

Well not if all the points on the circumference are the very same point in reality.

Do you realize that you have just committed the thought-crime of arguing that Earth must have a curvature?
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: Pinky on August 22, 2018, 11:31:32 AM
It seems that someone has decided to look at the Flat Earth books and literature that has been around for the last one hundred years. Aside from the fact that the model is not new at all -- the Bi-Polar model became an official model of the society in the early 1900's under the leadership of Lady Blount shortly after the discovery of the South Magnetic Pole -- its a nice presentation of the basic idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K3cD_L4j7U

The Flat Earth Society of Lady Blount's time (then called the Universal Zetetic Society) didn't provide a map for the Bi-Polar model, however. It appears that he is using Sandokhan's layout, to which he rightfully deserves credit.

If the author did in fact come up with this on his own, he deserves a lot of credit, although it is hard to see how, since the exact same map comes up in Google Image Search when one searches for "Flat Earth Two Pole map" or if one reads our Wiki (https://wiki.tfes.org/Layout_of_the_Continents).

Still, whatever. The author deserves good congratulations on his work on this video. Hopefully it spreads around to the YouTube community. I am glad to see that word is being spread.

Cannot possibly correct. The magnetic poles of Earth are in Canada and Antarctica. If Earth had this weird shape, we would have discovered so centuries ago simply by compass-navigation.
Title: Re: Bi-Polar Model: YouTube movement catching on
Post by: HorstFue on August 22, 2018, 07:29:42 PM
I hadn't contemplated the bi-polar map proposal before, but when I thought about plotting sunset azimuth and the actual location of the sun on the earth using the various flat earth proposed maps, the bi-polar one really stood out.

Tonight's sunset in Southern California is at 0226 UTC on a 285° bearing.
At that time, the sun will be over the Western Pacific, east of the Philippines.


(http://oi64.tinypic.com/2ro71fo.jpg)

As noted earlier in this thread, that would mean that the 180° longitude, light/space is subject to a "Pac-Man"-ish effect to connect, the degree to which depends on the latitude at the intersection.

Or am I misinterpreting this and the bowed lines of latitude are actually indicators of distortions of space/time such that my red line representing a "straight line" to the sun at sunset actually does curve around the upper edge of the disc and back down to the sun from the northern Pacific?

Once the sun crosses the equator in about a month, the problems with sun location and it's apparent view from the northern "hemisphere" becomes even more complex. I think this map creates more problems than it solves.

I would say your straight line to the sun is projected into an arc going around the north pole in a similar way as these latitude "loops", but never crossing the edge.
The edge represents a single point: 00°N 180°W.
More interesting is the 00°N, the equator. So the equator is not only the horizontal line at the middle, it's also the complete edge. So if your line does not cross the equator, the projection also does not need to cross the edge.
Indeed any line can have a corresponding projection on the map, without crossing the edge, no Pac-Man effect.
If a line has to cross the equator, the projection will cross the equator somewhere in the middle, and than for the rest of the journey will often follow these loops similar to the latitude loops (or the other way round).
This is quite weird and I cannot imaging, how the "spotlight sun" will work on this chart.

It's really amazing, that these Azimuthal equidistant projection are still the only maps FET presents. This projection by far have the greatest distortions among Globe Earth projections. Even this "Gleason Map" is nothing else than an Azimuthal equidistant projection.
For a flat world, it should be an easy job to provide a map, as no projection is needed.