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Messages - JHelzer

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Flat Earth Theory / Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« on: July 13, 2018, 10:19:56 PM »

This image of the sun is an example, like the blowfish, where light and dark shapes are caused by other phenomenon besides external light shadows.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« on: July 13, 2018, 10:17:56 PM »
I don't agree that the shadows must be caused by an external light source.
I disagree. I Didn't see any shadows on a  light bulb,  textured light bulb, the sun, or on Bobby Shafto hand held self lit moon which are all self illuminating.
The definition of shadow "a dark area or shape produced by a body coming between rays of light and a surface."
As I read Tom's quote, I believe he is expressing that dark shapes on the moon may be, but are not necessarily, shadows caused by external light.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« on: July 13, 2018, 10:02:59 PM »
Could there be a celestial light source which exists behind or to the side of the surface of the earth?
We never see it directly, only its effects.  If there is a sun and a moon above the Earth, why couldn't there be other light sources to the side or below the earth?

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« on: July 13, 2018, 09:22:49 PM »
What about light refraction as photons hit the boundary between space and the atmolayer?  Could light refract and/or reflect off the boundary to cause moon effects?

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Using a telescope to see the sun at night
« on: July 13, 2018, 07:26:01 PM »
If there was a street light at the end of your garden, you would be able to see it. If your garden is 10 miles away, you should be able to see that same street light with a telescope even though everything else around you is dark. We can see galaxies thousands of light years away with telescopes, so theoretically, we should be able to see the sun which according to FET is only about 3,000 miles vertical and would be several thousands miles away horizontally at night.
The atmolayer is not transparent.  It distorts and then obscures visibility over great distances.

what would it take to completely convince you that the Earth is a globe / flat, depending on your POV?
An accurate flat-earth map on a flat piece of paper would convince me it's flat.
An accurate curved-earth map on a curved piece of paper would convince me it's curved.

Flat Earth Community / Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« on: July 12, 2018, 09:13:04 PM »
In essence, we should ask not if FET is dangerous, but rather if RET is dangerous. An ongoing lie can do so much more damage than the truth could ever hope to accomplish. How many innocents continue to believe sweet fictions like Neil Armstrong hobbling about on the moon after climbing out of a capsule made of tin foil? Surely these sweet lies are the real danger to our society, not any sort of danger surrounding FET itself.
This is interesting because it's the same argument RE uses against FE.  I disagree both ways.
I am proposing that if FE is flat out wrong, and I believe it anyway, it really doesn't harm me.
Likewise if the moon landings 40 years ago are totally fake, but I believe them anyway, it really doesn't harm me.

Rejection of objective facts is all over our political spectrum now, and it's very dangerous. If we're willing to throw away facts and just believe whatever we want, the future is doomed.
I agree with this.  We should all avoid presenting false data as fact.  The best of us are open minded enough to shift our beliefs to correct data when we recognize it, but not everyone can.  I believe that enough of us do.

If the flat earth theory comes along with rejecting standard units of measurement, cartography, moon rotation, navigation, satellites, laws of physics, astronomy, trigonometry, flights etc then I would say yes.
I don't see this happening with FE.  The members of this forum use all these things in daily life and use them in discussions on this site.  Even those who don't believe in satellites orbiting a round earth pull out their phones and follow the navigation prompts as they drive.

The dangers of FE essentially become most prevalent if it loses it's core, loses it's 'way' as it were. If it becomes less about learning and exploring things for yourself, and more about simply anti-establishment. Some fringes are starting to appear this way, but for the most part I believe it's still holding steady to that core ideal.
I agree this is true about anything.  Look for truth in another framework: good. Anti-establishment: bad.

Asking a question isn't dangerous - but making up answers, especially if those answers breed distrust of the scientific method, is dangerous. I don't have a problem with people making arguments in good faith, or even just-for-fun but based on real data. I have a problem with people deliberately lying.
I like this.  This sums it up to me for both sides.  "I must not tell lies" -Harry Potter ootp

Flat Earth Community / Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« on: July 11, 2018, 01:16:44 AM »
Apologies for the OP without my own opinion.  My excuse is that I posted it at the beginning of my work day intending to make a first and a second comment, but work got busy and I haven’t been able to come back until now.

Let me give my motivation in posting this topic.  I discovered a year ago and I truly enjoy the interaction here.  I understand and identify with the RET I have been taught in school, but am also intrigued by the alternative ideas presented by FET.  During the past year, I’ve been through several phases as a member.  I started with a discover phase where I just posted to understand better.  I passed through a truth phase where I wanted to correct people who were posting falsehoods.  I went through a project phase where I wanted to put effort in building models or maps to prove my points. Lately I’ve been in a clarification phase where I mostly just look for opportunities to clarify what someone else might be saying hoping for a peacemaker effect.
This past weekend I saw a perspective that could allow me to participate on the forum in a new way.  One that is more supportive and explorative of the FE ideas.  I find myself wanting to participate in talking more about flat-earth possibilities and my favorite flat-earth mind benders.  I want to be there when people first catch that glimpse and say, “No. Wait… Could it?  I never thought… No… wait a minute… I? What?”  I just love watching someone’s mind expand with possibilities.

This past weekend, as I contemplated speaking up more for FET, I felt a need to be honest with myself and what I write in the forum.  I’m not interested in creating a character.  I thought a lot about the questions I asked to open this topic.  I am exploring the possibility of finding a way to be a genuine FE contributor, but I do need to have this discussion and feel good about it.
In the end, I don’t believe sharing FET is harmful.  I agree with the general warnings people are giving about the dangers of rejecting factual evidence.  I can see how that is a problem with vaccinations and global climate change.  I can see how discordant beliefs in these areas cause damage to individuals and civilizations.  FET isn't the same.  Looking for ways to explain our world in a different model than the generally accepted one doesn't alarm me.  I like it.

I am out of time, but I am interested in this discussion.  Thanks all.

Flat Earth Community / Is FET Dangerous?
« on: July 10, 2018, 04:33:54 PM »
Quote from: Neil Degrasse Tyson
There's a growing anti-intellectual strain in this country.  It may be the beginning of the end of our informed democracy.  Ofcourse, in a free society, you can and should think what ever you want and if you want to think the world is flat, go right ahead.  But if you think the world is flat and you have influence over others, then being wrong becomes being harmful to the health the wealth and the security of our citizenry.

We want to make sure, that the next person who joins the board to ask questions about their newly found belief, aren't misinformed. That the social presence of TFES doesn't lead young people to believe what TFES is actually claiming. To me, that's just as dangerous as religious indoctrination.

People might be coming here because they aren't sure, and then they see your facile arguments and they might start believing in nonsense. Believing in nonsense gets people killed.

Is Flat Earth Theory dangerous?
Is dangerous?
Is it harmful if a young person becomes convinced that the Earth is flat?
Is it harmful to our community for prominent figures to declare belief in the flat Earth?
What if you don't believe it? What if you're just messing around.  Is that dangerous?

What do you think?

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« on: July 09, 2018, 05:44:18 PM »
I don't get it. Thork is the one who can't read graphs, and then flips the table in frustration, saying I can't read graphs. Am I missing something?

A p-wave shadow zone is not a pp-wave shadow zone.

My advice is to not worry about the p-waves and s-waves and let this thread disappear into oblivion.  Just let it go.  I agree that Baby Thork is a frustrating guy, but he is right about one thing... 

From the time I discovered I have loved it.  This site is fantastic.  It is time for me to assist in making sure new comers have the chance to enjoy it as much as I have.  Thanks Thork.

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology
« on: July 09, 2018, 04:13:31 PM »
I can't be a round earther on this forum. This thread shows why.

I get it Baby Thork.  You've convinced me.
I'll take it slow, but this is my pivot point.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« on: July 07, 2018, 03:41:34 AM »
Here is an image of the full moon with enough resolution to include "coarseness"

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« on: July 07, 2018, 03:34:02 AM »
I pointed out that he literally overlaid the full moon onto the crescent moon. He is drawing lines from an image of the full moon to an image of the full moon, why are you attaching significance to the fact that they match? What is it you imagine he did?

Overlaying your full moon image over your crescent moon image, and making it transparent so you could see how the moon features align was supposed to help. Instead, you saw it as a trick. I'm not trying to fool you. I was trying to help.

This is what I imagined he did.  He rotated and overlayed the images to help you see the similarities.

Why are you acting as though this is evidence?!

Because it is evidence.  When you overlay the images and the features line up, it is evidence.  Now that he has shown it without the overlay, can you see it?

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« on: July 06, 2018, 09:35:10 PM »

You are identifying and connecting features that do not exist on the crescent, and are only visible because you overlaid the two. You could do the same to argue that the moon is Kermit the frog.

Hahaha.  JRowe sees two picture of the same object in different conditions and can't detect the similarities.  The crescent moon picture was taken with higher resolution than the other and therefore shows more detail, but JRowe believes that the "coarseness at the edge of the underside" means that the moon shows different faces at different times.

To top it off, when a helpful person rotates the image and draws lines to make the matching feature obvious, JRowe calls foul with the typical flat-earth you used CGI on the image.  Classic!

JRowe, if you can't understand that the side of the Moon facing Earth is always the same, you're not going to generate credibility for your other viewpoints. Especially when you show us a picture of them looking the same and then claim louder that they are different.

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Thork's Mud Pie Theory
« on: July 05, 2018, 08:47:12 PM »
I like this video for visualizing plate tectonics.

It is a time-lapse video of a lava lake with cooled crust over the top of the liquid lava.  The parameters of this lava lake are just right to produce the effect of crust plates moving around just like what we learn in school about the continental plates of the Earth.  We can see expansion and subduction happening in the video.  It is really cool and a great small scale demonstration of what is believed to be happening with the continental plates of our Earth.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Speed of The Sun
« on: April 16, 2018, 10:16:33 PM »
A question for the FES members: has anyone directly (i. e. via radar, laser or so) measured the speed (or distance) of the Sun, the Moon or any other celestial body? If not, why?

The distance to the moon has been measured with lasers.

FE needs to grow now as fast as possible, because hand held technology available to all of us is becoming capable of proving Rowbotham's conclusions false.
This link gives instructions for how to measure the distance to the moon using your smartphone camera and accelerometer.  Pretty cool.

The numbers seem inflated on this poll,
I just don't meet FEers in real life, nobody seems interested in even discussing it.
I know one other person, that's it...
I agree.  The numbers are inflated.  I know zero flat earth believers among all my acquaintances. 

I have shown interest in the subject and invited discussion.  The best I can get is about an hour of confusion about the possibility that some experiments could show the Earth is flat.  But after that, they all realize that there are flaws in every flat Earth argument and won't believe it any more.  But it is a fun hour. :)

Flat Earth Investigations / NOAA Regulates Pictures From Space
« on: April 05, 2018, 11:37:40 PM »
The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is limiting images of the Earth taken from space. #governmentconspiracy

During the live stream leading up to the mission, a SpaceX employee explained that the company would have to cut off footage from the Falcon 9 rocket once the vehicle reached orbit. And the host said restrictions from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration were to blame.

Flat Earth Community / Re: The people of the flat earth society
« on: March 16, 2018, 10:04:18 PM »
If nobody replies with a direct answer, I recommend just reading through several topics.  You'll get the idea.

Flat Earth Community / Re: SpaceX BFR
« on: March 14, 2018, 11:22:31 PM »
Have you seen this video yet?
:BFR Markting Video:
Soon we will all be able to look out the window and see for ourselves.

I've seen it now and it looks faker than fake. Fake news fake video.
When will it end?

J-Man, It does my heart some good to learn that you can recognize actual fake videos and call them out as fake accurately.  What do you have to say about the Falcon Heavy/Roadster video?

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